Assurance of Salvation

[jcrichton]

I was recently told that the letter of James was not written for Christians, but for Jews. I read the whole letter again, and realized how this could happen. There really is no reference within the letter to confirm it should be applied to Gentile Christians as well as Hebrew Christians. The only reason I accept that it was is because the Church testifies to this. Once a person rejects the witness of Sacred Tradition, one can come out all sorts of strange places.

You’ve stated it clearly… it is rejection of Authority (Sacred Tradition) that can cause Believers to circumvent Scriptures or to morph the Word according to their own understanding…

Is the Word of God prejudiced? …did St. Paul not state that there are no longer males and females, Jews and Gentiles? So how can the Teachings of the New Covenant apply only to some or demand a greater justice only from some?

Did Jesus state that there are two different folds and that He would reveal Himself accordingly… did St. Paul not expand on the issue of the wall between the two people and that Jesus had done away with that division?

…well through “personal” understanding, there are those who claim that we can find evidence of UFO’s in Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

Does the Catholic Church still view Judas I. as a once believing Apostle who of his own ‘free will’, forfeited his love & belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and thereby transitioned from saved to lost status ?

 

[guanophore]

Does the Catholic Church still view Judas I. as a once believing Apostle who of his own ‘free will’, forfeited his love & belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and thereby transitioned from saved to lost status ?

The CC does not speculate on the eternal status of any soul, leaving judgement to God for all. We only pronounce on those whose status has been revealed to the Church by God, such as the Blessed Mother, and the saints who He has revealed are with Him in heaven.

As for Judas, we can only heed the warnings of Jesus’ words.

Matt 26:23-25
24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born." 25 Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” He replied, “You have said so.”

And Peter’s testimony:

Acts 1:16-20
16 “Friends, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit through David foretold concerning Judas, who became a guide for those who arrested Jesus — 17 for he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” 18(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 This became known to all the residents of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his homestead become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;

and
‘Let another take his position of overseer.’

Acts 1:24-25
Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Other than these passages, God has not revealed to the Church the “place” of Judas.

 

[jcrichton]

Does the Catholic Church still view Judas I. as a once believing Apostle who of his own ‘free will’, forfeited his love & belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and thereby transitioned from saved to lost status ?

…there are various people who hold various beliefs about Judas… as far as I can tell the Church has not made a formal pronouncement about his eternal status… though, as with any subject matter, even some Bishops have expressed their personal opinions as to Judas’ damnation.

I do not hold such thoughts; I prefer to err with the Church as to God’s Mercy knowing no bounds!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

The CC does not speculate on the eternal status of any soul, leaving judgement to God for all. We only pronounce on those whose status has been revealed to the Church by God, such as the Blessed Mother, and the saints who He has revealed are with Him in heaven.

As for Judas, we can only heed the warnings of Jesus’ words.

Matt 26:23-25
24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born." 25 Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” He replied, “You have said so.”

And Peter’s testimony:

Acts 1:16-20
16 “Friends, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit through David foretold concerning Judas, who became a guide for those who arrested Jesus — 17 for he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” 18(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 This became known to all the residents of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his homestead become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;

and
‘Let another take his position of overseer.’

Acts 1:24-25
Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Other than these passages, God has not revealed to the Church the “place” of Judas.

Ok…so, the Church doesn’t declare ‘in writing’ on the matter. But, several years back, 4-5 as I recall, you and may other Catholics here @ apologetics section, had earlier OSAS Thread, and used Judas as example #1 in scripture, of a believer who lost salvation.
Anyway, you and they convinced me, well lets say that the above key scripture u cite did.
W/0 doing a search for that thread, from memory, I think the case was made from scripture, not by saying it was formal Catholic teaching.

Nevertheless, I’d guess you and they still hold to that ‘educated, reasoned’ opinion, from CAF past ?

 

[jcrichton]

Ok…so, the Church doesn’t declare ‘in writing’ on the matter. But, several years back, 4-5 as I recall, you and may other Catholics here @ apologetics section, had earlier OSAS Thread, and used Judas as example #1 in scripture, of a believer who lost salvation.
Anyway, you and they convinced me, well lets say that the above key scripture u cite did.
W/0 doing a search for that thread, from memory, I think the case was made from scripture, not by saying it was formal Catholic teaching.

Nevertheless, I’d guess you and they still hold to that ‘educated, reasoned’ opinion, from CAF past ?

…it is reasonable to demonstrate that salvation can be lost by using Judas as an example… there were only twelve selected by Jesus to represent the twelve trives and of the twelve one (who had already been prophesied about) would ultimately reject Christ and his appointment… as to Judas’ eternal status… only God knows, everyone else, including myself who hold that God’s Mercy would not condemn Judas, is propositioning a personal opinion.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

…it is reasonable to demonstrate that salvation can be lost by using Judas as an example… there were only twelve selected by Jesus to represent the twelve trives and of the twelve one (who had already been prophesied about) would ultimately reject Christ and his appointment… as to Judas’ eternal status… only God knows, everyone else, including myself who hold that God’s Mercy would not condemn Judas, is propositioning a personal opinion.

Maran atha!

Angel

Whats that OT prophesy …that one of 12 would forsake the Messiah ?

 

[brb3]

LUKE 15:32. Regarding the Prodigal Son …

" He was ONCE DEAD…but NOW HE IS ALIVE"

that’s Proof Text, to support a true son, voluntarily leaving and being spiritually LOST again …but for a later repentance, he was truly once saved, then Lost.

 

[jcrichton]

Whats that OT prophesy …that one of 12 would forsake the Messiah ?

This is found in Psalms 41 & 55:

Even my trusted friend on whom I relied, who shared my table, takes advantage of me. (Psalm 41:9)

12 Were it an enemy who insulted me, that I could bear; if an opponent pitted himself against me, I could turn away from him. 13 But you, a person of my own rank, a comrade and dear friend, 14 to whom I was bound by intimate friendship in the house of God! (Psalm 55:12-14a)

Jesus even quotes Psalm 41:9:

I am not speaking about all of you: I know the ones I have chosen; but what scripture says must be fulfilled: 'He who shares my table takes advantage of me. (St. John 13:18)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

LUKE 15:32. Regarding the Prodigal Son …

" He was ONCE DEAD…but NOW HE IS ALIVE"

that’s Proof Text, to support a true son, voluntarily leaving and being spiritually LOST again …but for a later repentance, he was truly once saved, then Lost.

…and what is truly profound is how our Father receives us once we turn back to Him… as Jesus said, there is greater joy in Heaven when a sinner to turns back to God than for all who are already with God–not that these are not important… but that in God’s view every sinner’s repentance is of great consequence and joy!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

…and what is truly profound is how our
Father receives us once we turn back to Him… as Jesus said, there is greater joy in Heaven when a sinner to turns back to God than for all who are already with God–not that these are not important… but that in God’s view every sinner’s repentance is of great consequence and joy!

Maran atha!

Angel

Amazing…

And, even this scripture, about the rejoicing of Saints / Angels in Heaven …necessitates that many DON’T REPENT AGAIN, of Prodigal lives, …otherwise, their final outcomes predestined, a forgone conclusion, …and heavenly CELEBRATION would be made empty, meaningless.

 

[brb3]

This is found in Psalms 41 & 55:

Jesus even quotes Psalm 41:9:

Maran atha!

Angel

No question on these from Psalms !! Absolutely refer to Judas and Jesus. How did I not notice the connection before?? Thinking it only applied to David and his Apostate friends, like Saul, Absalom, etc.

You are the first to ever bring this prophesy to light… for me !! I’ve never had another point this out Anywhere/Anytime…and never in a OSAS thread !!

Jcrichton — your points, from scripture, from Jesus & prophesy about him, – are beyond rebuttal, by any Calvinist or other Protestant claiming OSAS is BIBLICAL reality !!!

Not that any more debate points are needed, but …do you have any more, that you care to share ?

 

[OldProf]

No question on these from Psalms !! Absolutely refer to Judas and Jesus. How did I not notice the connection before?? Thinking it only applied to David and his Apostate friends, like Saul, Absalom, etc.

You are the first to ever bring this prophesy to light… for me !! I’ve never had another point this out Anywhere/Anytime…and never in a OSAS thread !!

Jcrichton — your points, from scripture, from Jesus & prophesy about him, – are beyond rebuttal, by any Calvinist or other Protestant claiming OSAS is BIBLICAL reality !!!

Not that any more debate points are needed, but …do you have any more, that you care to share ?

brb3, the sermons I sent to you discuss Psalms 41 and 55, see
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=747488

So you HAVE seen them, but only if you actually read the sermons, which now I’m guessing you didn’t. Or if you did, it was only a cursory reading that missed much pertinent information relating to this very subject.

Think about it. If Judas was a Christian, then he was in a state of grace. He went from spiritual death to spiritual life. He was born again, and he was one of Jesus’ sheep. Going from dead in sins to life is what Paul speaks about in Eph 2:1-10. It is the journey of the believer. But we have some pretty clear evidence that Judas went to hell. He was of the devil (John 6:70) and chosen that the Scriptures would be fulfilled (John 13:18).

Now we have some theological problems. In the clearest and most emphatic Greek, Jesus, the “Good Shepherd” (John 10:11), says His sheep have eternal life and will never perish in John 10:28. It means they will never go to hell.

If Judas was a sheep and goes to hell, it means:

Jesus was wrong in John 10:27-30. Sheep can be lost.

Jesus was wrong in John 6:37-40. Jesus will lose some given by the Father.

Paul was wrong in Romans 8:39 (ref 8:18-39, we, who are in creation, can separate ourselves from from the love of God, but that is not what Paul says, is it?)

Paul was wrong in Philippians 1:6. Since faith is lost, it won’t be completed.

Jesus is not the perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).

And there is more, but we are limited in the length of our responses.

I think it is a safe bet that, theologically, Judas was never one of Jesus sheep to begin with. And, since he knew all about Jesus and what following Jesus meant, his turning away fits the “impossible” statement in Hebrews 6:4.

Regards, OldProf

 

[brb3]

brb3, the sermons I sent to you discuss Psalms 41 and 55, see
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=747488

So you HAVE seen them, but only if you actually read the sermons, which now I’m guessing you didn’t. Or if you did, it was only a cursory reading that missed much pertinent information relating to this very subject.

Think about it. If Judas was a Christian, then he was in a state of grace. He went from spiritual death to spiritual life. He was born again, and he was one of Jesus’ sheep. Going from dead in sins to life is what Paul speaks about in Eph 2:1-10. It is the journey of the believer. But we have some pretty clear evidence that Judas went to hell. He was of the devil (John 6:70) and chosen that the Scriptures would be fulfilled (John 13:18).

Now we have some theological problems. In the clearest and most emphatic Greek, Jesus, the “Good Shepherd” (John 10:11), says His sheep have eternal life and will never perish in John 10:28. It means they will never go to hell.

If Judas was a sheep and goes to hell, it means:

Jesus was wrong in John 10:27-30. Sheep can be lost.

Jesus was wrong in John 6:37-40. Jesus will lose some given by the Father.

Paul was wrong in Romans 8:39 (ref 8:18-39, we, who are in creation, can separate ourselves from from the love of God, but that is not what Paul says, is it?)

Paul was wrong in Philippians 1:6. Since faith is lost, it won’t be completed.

Jesus is not the perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).

And there is more, but we are limited in the length of our responses.

I think it is a safe bet that, theologically, Judas was never one of Jesus sheep to begin with. And, since he knew all about Jesus and what following Jesus meant, his turning away fits the “impossible” statement in Hebrews 6:4.

Regards, OldProf

U are right, I went to the (this) thread, via your link address, but didn’t examine the sermon links. I will however now take time to listen / read them this weekend …especially since you now tell me they cover these amazing Prophetic verses on Jesus & Judas !!!

Now, a question for you. Have u ever attempted to argue, from scripture, that OSAS is wrong …just as a scholarly endeavor ? Make a list of your debate points, both pro & con. U should find the list convincingly favors the Catholic position.

 

[paul_c]

brb3, the sermons I sent to you discuss Psalms 41 and 55, see
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=747488

So you HAVE seen them, but only if you actually read the sermons, which now I’m guessing you didn’t. Or if you did, it was only a cursory reading that missed much pertinent information relating to this very subject.

Think about it. If Judas was a Christian, then he was in a state of grace. He went from spiritual death to spiritual life. He was born again, and he was one of Jesus’ sheep. Going from dead in sins to life is what Paul speaks about in Eph 2:1-10. It is the journey of the believer. But we have some pretty clear evidence that Judas went to hell. He was of the devil (John 6:70) and chosen that the Scriptures would be fulfilled (John 13:18).

Now we have some theological problems. In the clearest and most emphatic Greek, Jesus, the “Good Shepherd” (John 10:11), says His sheep have eternal life and will never perish in John 10:28. It means they will never go to hell.

If Judas was a sheep and goes to hell, it means:

Jesus was wrong in John 10:27-30. Sheep can be lost.

Jesus was wrong in John 6:37-40. Jesus will lose some given by the Father.

Paul was wrong in Romans 8:39 (ref 8:18-39, we, who are in creation, can separate ourselves from from the love of God, but that is not what Paul says, is it?)

Paul was wrong in Philippians 1:6. Since faith is lost, it won’t be completed.

Jesus is not the perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).

And there is more, but we are limited in the length of our responses.

I think it is a safe bet that, theologically, Judas was never one of Jesus sheep to begin with. And, since he knew all about Jesus and what following Jesus meant, his turning away fits the “impossible” statement in Hebrews 6:4.

Regards, OldProf

Let’s look at this a different way.

Why did God create man? Wasn’t it to give Him someone to share in His Love?

What is Love? Isn’t it doing things for the good of another without expecting anything back?

So doesn’t love require free will, therefore? And free will require real choices.

When God created us, he gave us a whole series of gifts: life, reason, conscience and free will. The ramifications of that were man has the choice to love God and neighbor or not and when he chooses not to love, evil enters the world. God is always calling us to himself and will freely give the gift of his grace through baptism for all those that ask. And because of the sacrifice of Jesus, His only son, God will forgive our sins, first through baptism and subsequently though sacramental confession, allowing us to get back into grace if we fall though sin. If we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven .

now against that backdrop, lets explore those readings that trouble you. Can anyone take you away from the all might God? Of course not. But at the same time, YOU can choose to turn away from God and fall from Grace. We can not separate ourselves from God’s love, He will continue to love us until we die but God will not force you to love Him against your will because love must be freely given or its not love, its tyranny. Jesus will not lose anyone that God has given Him, but he will not stop us from leaving if that is our choice. There is a difference you see. God does not compete with Satan for souls, Satan is not that strong. Instead, God calls to all men, knowing at all times those that will heed the call and those that will persist to the end. Remember the parable of the sower? Those who are on rocky ground never believe but those on shallow soil do indeed believe but don’t persist under persecution. Similarly, those among the thorns also believe but their belief is choked away over time by materiality. Only those on Rich soil reach heaven. So clearly, it is possible to turn away from God.

So, just as YOU can turn away from God after being saved through baptism, so could Judas Iscariot. And remember, there are many many readings that render that explicit. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. We can only get to Heaven if we stay connected to the vine.

 

[jcrichton]

Amazing…

And, even this scripture, about the rejoicing of Saints / Angels in Heaven …necessitates that many DON’T REPENT AGAIN, of Prodigal lives, …otherwise, their final outcomes predestined, a forgone conclusion, …and heavenly CELEBRATION would be made empty, meaningless.

Exactly… St. Paul speaks of Creation suffering the pangs/pains of birth… I wonder if he did not mean Birth (must be Born again, in the Spirit)? …each time man rejects or turns from God… all of Creation suffers!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No question on these from Psalms !! Absolutely refer to Judas and Jesus. How did I not notice the connection before?? Thinking it only applied to David and his Apostate friends, like Saul, Absalom, etc.

You are the first to ever bring this prophesy to light… for me !! I’ve never had another point this out Anywhere/Anytime…and never in a OSAS thread !!

Jcrichton — your points, from scripture, from Jesus & prophesy about him, – are beyond rebuttal, by any Calvinist or other Protestant claiming OSAS is BIBLICAL reality !!!

Not that any more debate points are needed, but …do you have any more, that you care to share ?

…I am glad that I can be of help… I love searching Scriptures because every time I am searching I learn as much or even more than what I seek to share… but I am not too creative… so I need a point of reference to direct my thoughts (mental and cyber search engines)… so if you have any suggestions feel free to list them (preferably one or two at a time to allow for better study).

When we deal with Scripture we will always come to issues and misunderstandings …the most funny and confrontational I’ve ever found was one fellow claiming that there were serious errors in Scripture and he offered the death of Saul as proof text… we laughed for quite a while after we studied the passages dealing with it!

…as for your oversight… that’s something that happens to all–specially when dealing with prophecies since they are mostly set on several layers… and we tend to be linear–noticing mostly what is directly related (chronoligically/contextually) to the particular passage that we are reading; so don’t beat yourself down… just make it a point to know that the Holy Spirit can reveal different things at different times from the same Scriptural passage!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

brb3, the sermons I sent to you discuss Psalms 41 and 55, see
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=747488

So you HAVE seen them, but only if you actually read the sermons, which now I’m guessing you didn’t. Or if you did, it was only a cursory reading that missed much pertinent information relating to this very subject.

Think about it. If Judas was a Christian, then he was in a state of grace. He went from spiritual death to spiritual life. He was born again, and he was one of Jesus’ sheep. Going from dead in sins to life is what Paul speaks about in Eph 2:1-10. It is the journey of the believer. But we have some pretty clear evidence that Judas went to hell. He was of the devil (John 6:70) and chosen that the Scriptures would be fulfilled (John 13:18).

Now we have some theological problems. In the clearest and most emphatic Greek, Jesus, the “Good Shepherd” (John 10:11), says His sheep have eternal life and will never perish in John 10:28. It means they will never go to hell.

If Judas was a sheep and goes to hell, it means:

Jesus was wrong in John 10:27-30. Sheep can be lost.

Jesus was wrong in John 6:37-40. Jesus will lose some given by the Father.

Paul was wrong in Romans 8:39 (ref 8:18-39, we, who are in creation, can separate ourselves from from the love of God, but that is not what Paul says, is it?)

Paul was wrong in Philippians 1:6. Since faith is lost, it won’t be completed.

Jesus is not the perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).

And there is more, but we are limited in the length of our responses.

I think it is a safe bet that, theologically, Judas was never one of Jesus sheep to begin with. And, since he knew all about Jesus and what following Jesus meant, his turning away fits the “impossible” statement in Hebrews 6:4.

Regards, OldProf

Up to your old tricks, again, OldProf?

…no it does not mean what you think it means (I got that from the old “the Princess Bride” where a brainiac kept thinking he was… well… a brain); it simply means that every single person in the world is guaranteed Salvation in Jesus Christ and that even those who become His Disciples and receive Baptism and the Holy Spirit can, whenever they choose to do so, remove themselves from Christ’s Fold–this of course does not speak ill about Christ’s Promise or God’s Omnipotence… rather it speaks volumes about God’s Mercy, Patience, and Grace: God Will Never Force Even Salvation Upon Any Who Reject His Authority!

The problem you have is that you want a God that Grants you Salvation against your own will–this will never happen!

…and you want to be secure in your old man (sin) without having to be responsible for your unrighteous choices–Christ will never get on the Cross for that “Believer!”

OldProf, it is simple: either God allows us free will and we can choose to reject Him and remove ourselves from His Fellowship or God is the most deranged sadist ever… pretending to Love man while sinisterly damning most of humanity while Saving His Elect Few, in spite of their righteousness or unrighteousness!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

U are right, I went to the (this) thread, via your link address, but didn’t examine the sermon links. I will however now take time to listen / read them this weekend …especially since you now tell me they cover these amazing Prophetic verses on Jesus & Judas !!!

Now, a question for you. Have u ever attempted to argue, from scripture, that OSAS is wrong …just as a scholarly endeavor ? Make a list of your debate points, both pro & con. U should find the list convincingly favors the Catholic position.

brb3 - yes I have reviewed the pros and cons. No it doesn’t from what I can tell. See my first post on this thread, #42, and know that I’m well aware “proof texts” and what they do and do not prove. I told guanophore I will follow the truth in this, and I will. If I can find biblical support that Jesus’ sheep can be lost, then that would be a first step to show favor of Roman Catholic theology.

What is your response to the verses I just gave in Post #988?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Let’s look at this a different way.

Why did God create man? Wasn’t it to give Him someone to share in His Love?

What is Love? Isn’t it doing things for the good of another without expecting anything back?

So doesn’t love require free will, therefore? And free will require real choices.

When God created us, he gave us a whole series of gifts: life, reason, conscience and free will. The ramifications of that were man has the choice to love God and neighbor or not and when he chooses not to love, evil enters the world. God is always calling us to himself and will freely give the gift of his grace through baptism for all those that ask. And because of the sacrifice of Jesus, His only son, God will forgive our sins, first through baptism and subsequently though sacramental confession, allowing us to get back into grace if we fall though sin. If we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven .

now against that backdrop, lets explore those readings that trouble you. Can anyone take you away from the all might God? Of course not. But at the same time, YOU can choose to turn away from God and fall from Grace. We can not separate ourselves from God’s love, He will continue to love us until we die but God will not force you to love Him against your will because love must be freely given or its not love, its tyranny. Jesus will not lose anyone that God has given Him, but he will not stop us from leaving if that is our choice. There is a difference you see. God does not compete with Satan for souls, Satan is not that strong. Instead, God calls to all men, knowing at all times those that will heed the call and those that will persist to the end. Remember the parable of the sower? Those who are on rocky ground never believe but those on shallow soil do indeed believe but don’t persist under persecution. Similarly, those among the thorns also believe but their belief is choked away over time by materiality. Only those on Rich soil reach heaven. So clearly, it is possible to turn away from God.

So, just as YOU can turn away from God after being saved through baptism, so could Judas Iscariot. And remember, there are many many readings that render that explicit. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. We can only get to Heaven if we stay connected to the vine.

paul c, you didn’t give a “backdrop” from a Scriptural viewpoint. What Scriptures do you have to show that the unbeliever has ANY ability to do something righteous in the sight of God?

A free will that has the ability to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior (a good thing) and then later to reject Jesus (a bad thing) tells me who is in control of salvation, doesn’t it. It is the person with free will. Where does the Bible teach that? If that is true, why cannot we boast in our own salvation?

And what is your response to the verses I just gave in Post #988?

Regards, OldProf