Assurance of Salvation

[OldProf]

There is no assurance for those in a state of mortal sin. That is why St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit who is God said “WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING.”

The appeal of assurance is that one doesn’t have to do what St. Paul told them to do. they don’t have to "work out their salvation with fear and trembling. … Clip

Jerry-Jet, with your post I can understand your opinions. But I prefer something a bit more substantial if a meaningful argument is to be presented. The first sentence you use Php 2:12 out of context. In context, “St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit who is God” (as you say, and with no disagreement from me) is writing to the Christians (Php 1:1 “to all the saints in Christ”) in Philipi and exhorting them to be lights in the world. Why, because of all the disputings and unruliness within the Church there (Php 2:3, 2:14), they were not being salt and light in the community as they should – in fact, their church should be blameless and unified (Php 1:27-28). These actions are unacceptable and invite the judgment of God upon them – not to the point of loss of salvation (Php 1:6), but as a punishment from God they should greatly fear (Php 2:12). We, too, today, should greatly fear punishment from God for our own sins, and that should prove to be a deterrent to our continuing to sin when we know Christ as our Shepherd. He chastens his own (1 Cor 11:28-32; Heb 12:5-11; 1 John 1:5-10) with the good purpose to straighten them out when they need it. That sounds very father-like, very Shepherd-like. We should examine and test ourselves to recognize our own sins, the sooner the better, and repent of them.

This context should be clear if you understand that Christ’s Sheep, the Christians, will never perish (John 10:28; Php 1:6; Heb 12:2).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

This is purely subjective. You believe your sense was good, so did the Mormon. And the bible isn’t clear at all about the Trinity. That is a Traditional teaching and undertaking of the Church.

I don’t expect you to leave them alone-but I expect that you might overlook some dumb theology of theirs and see what’s really happening inside-faith to the degree they can with the understanding that they have.

The biblical evidence for the Trinity is pretty clear. The Church did get it right. So I’ll have to disagree with your assessment of the Bible. But, then, I don’t see you back up many arguments you make with the Bible.

You should know, I really felt terrible for this professor and the young “elders” who visited my home - for them to be under such a deception and idolatry. Very, very sad. I gave them verses in the Bible, and discussions of context. I exhorted them to seek the truth with all their hearts, to take the KJV Bible (their Scripture) seriously.

fhansen, I hope you take the Bible seriously.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Regarding the topic of the OP, all of this simply means one thing-God alone rescues us, but as Augustine said, He won’t violate our wills to do so. He didn’t force Adam & Eve to obey-and He won’t force us to obey now. We can turn to him, follow for awhile, and, like rocky ground where the seed doesn’t take hold, we can turn away again.

The very purpose of this life-of this whole messy world where good and evil are actually known, and revelation and grace are added to the mix, is so that our wills will be involved-that’s the wild card, not God; He desires that we’ll turn from the pigsty like the Prodigal and run to the open arms of the Father. But we don’t have to-and we can always return to the pigsty-and people do. We don’t have to finally reverse the decision, within ourselves. that Adam & Eve made to reject the wisdom and authority and goodness of God.

And until we finally persevere, we won’t know for certain that we were one of the ones who would finally persevere.

So I said,

Well, to belabor the point, the natural man neither seeks God or does anything righteous (Rom 3:9-27). How is it they have ANY ability to do what you say? If they are dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1), how do the dead have this ability? If God by grace gives them faith (Eph 2:8-9), then yes, they can please God (Heb 11:6) and receive free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23). Do they have eternal life, or just the possibility of eternal life?

You indicated only the possibility of eternal life. That will generate a lot of necessary corrections to apostolic revelation. If that is what the Scriptures mean, then that is how they could easily have said it.

What about the questions on the dead man’s abilities? How do the spiritually dead have the ability to make a righteous choice to follow Jesus? Please answer, and please do so with consideration for the verses in my quote above.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[fhansen]

The biblical evidence for the Trinity is pretty clear. The Church did get it right. So I’ll have to disagree with your assessment of the Bible. But, then, I don’t see you back up many arguments you make with the Bible.

You should know, I really felt terrible for this professor and the young “elders” who visited my home - for them to be under such a deception and idolatry. Very, very sad. I gave them verses in the Bible, and discussions of context. I exhorted them to seek the truth with all their hearts, to take the KJV Bible (their Scripture) seriously.

fhansen, I hope you take the Bible seriously.

Sincerely, OldProf

Actually I did use the bible more in our earlier exchanges-it’s just that, as I mentioned before, it becomes sort of amusing after awhile, everyone so sure of themselves, often disagreeing. You’re way hyper-dogmatic, way over-confident-based on some plausible enough but uncertain interpretations of the bible. Of course I take the bible seriously, properly understood. And that proper understanding is virtually impossible without the guidance of the Church, who held the gospel in her bosom and proclaimed it before she (her people) wrote even one word of the NT.

 

[fhansen]

So I said,

You indicated only the possibility of eternal life. That will generate a lot of necessary corrections to apostolic revelation. If that is what the Scriptures mean, then that is how they could easily have said it.

What about the questions on the dead man’s abilities? How do the spiritually dead have the ability to make a righteous choice to follow Jesus? Please answer, and please do so with consideration for the verses in my quote above.

Sincerely, OldProf

We all have a fair shake with a just God-Buddhists, Mormons, you name it. We’re all graced-in Gods favor -due to the merits of Christ-all receive a measure of faith. We’re judged according to what we do with what we are given. Luke 12:48 sheds some light on this-as well as the Parable of the Talents. And in that parable, BTW, the master reaps where he does not sow. Any Good Samaritan, ignorant of the gospel, will find favor with God-because He’s just. And that isn’t in conflict with the bible though it may be in conflict with your somewhat distorted interpretation of it. But it does no good to use the bible and quote it as if it’s a theological handbook or catechism anyway-it was never intended for that purpose.

 

[OldProf]

Actually I did use the bible more in our earlier exchanges-it’s just that, as I mentioned before, it becomes sort of amusing after awhile, everyone so sure of themselves, often disagreeing. You’re way hyper-dogmatic, way over-confident-based on some plausible enough but uncertain interpretations of the bible. Of course I take the bible seriously, properly understood. And that proper understanding is virtually impossible without the guidance of the Church, who held the gospel in her bosom and proclaimed it before she (her people) wrote even one word of the NT.

I can understand that. When one engages with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon Elders (18-20 year olds), the ONLY common ground is Scripture. They say the believe in the Bible. So you break it down with them, and it soon becomes apparent the real authority is the Jehovah’s Witness Governing Body, or the Mormon prophets and apostles. But it does/did force me to very deeply study the Bible and very deeply study systematic theology and very deeply study biblical theology. And that has made the Bible so alive and so unified and cohesive.

I really do believe that God is not the author of confusion. His Word fits together in such a wonderful mosaic of truth, that so illuminates the mind to a beautiful Savior, that I’m compelled to tell others about this great gift or love letter to mankind. I have been so enriched by God’s Word, that I do have this peace that passes all understanding. I want to share that peace. Thus, my arguments will not be on my own opinion or authority, but with a biblical foundation. I’m very willing to test that foundation.

So, in Peace and in the love of Jesus Christ, I bid you goodnight - OldProf

 

[fhansen]

I can understand that. When one engages with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon Elders (18-20 year olds), the ONLY common ground is Scripture. They say the believe in the Bible. So you break it down with them, and it soon becomes apparent the real authority is the Jehovah’s Witness Governing Body, or the Mormon prophets and apostles. But it does/did force me to very deeply study the Bible and very deeply study systematic theology and very deeply study biblical theology. And that has made the Bible so alive and so unified and cohesive.

I really do believe that God is not the author of confusion. His Word fits together in such a wonderful mosaic of truth, that so illuminates the mind to a beautiful Savior, that I’m compelled to tell others about this great gift or love letter to mankind. I have been so enriched by God’s Word, that I do have this peace that passes all understanding. I want to share that peace. Thus, my arguments will not be on my own opinion or authority, but with a biblical foundation. I’m very willing to test that foundation.

So, in Peace and in the love of Jesus Christ, I bid you goodnight - OldProf

night, Prof-I know you’re very sincere. sleep well

 

[fbl9]

Sincerely, OldProf

What greater reward can we, who are nothing but dust,have than to be one with our God? That OldProf is what the reward of heaven truly is.

What reward level do desire to achieve?

 

[teeboy]

teeboy, I believe action in the form of good works that bring God the Glory is an evidence that a person is a Christian. I stated that earlier. When one has faith as a gift from God (Eph 2:8-10), then they have passed from death to life (John 5:24), have received the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23), and the become a sheep of Jesus who will never perish (John 6:37-40, John 10:28). St John says we can know we have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Why do you say we can’t have assurance?

Sincerely, OldProf

The best way to avoid sin is through good works. So, if the good works help you avoid sin, then it is easy to stay in the grace of God.

Assured can have several meanings.

One meaning is to be certain. I don’t think anyone can be certain of salvation. Why? Because one can’t judge himself; God is the judge.

Another meaning is to cause to feel sure. I feel good about my salvation today. However, I went to confession yesterday and I received the Eucharist at the Vigil Mass yesterday.

 

[OldProf]

…clip…you see now what I mean about rejecting or ignoring other passages?

Maran atha!

Angel

Angel, you’ve done us a benefit by providing some Scriptures to study. I agree that Bible study is both important and most beneficial to knowing the will and mind of God. I certainly disagree with you that I ignore or reject Bible passages.

You’ve quoted Php 2:12-15. In a recent post I provided an answer to that which is consistent with the other Scriptures. St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit is writing to the Christians (Php 1:1 “to all the saints in Christ”) in Philipi and exhorting them to be lights in the world. Why, because of all the disputings and unruliness within the Church there (Php 2:2, 2:14), they were not being salt and light in the community as they should – in fact, their church should be blameless and unified (Php 1:27-28). These actions are unacceptable and invite the judgment of God upon them – not to the point of loss of salvation (Php 1:6), but as a punishment from God they should greatly fear (Php 2:12). We, too, today, should greatly fear punishment from God for our own sins, and that should prove to be a deterrent to our continuing to sin when we know Christ as our Shepherd. He chastens his own (1 Cor 11:28-32; Heb 12:3-11; 1 John 1:5-10) with the good purpose to straighten them out when they need it. That sounds very father-like, very Shepherd-like. We should examine and test ourselves to recognize our own sins, the sooner the better, and repent of them.

This context should be clear if you understand that Christ’s Sheep, the Christians, will never perish (John 10:28; Php 1:6; Heb 12:2-it is Jesus Christ who is “the author and finisher (perfecter) of our faith,” not us).

You then quote Eph 4:22-32. This is clearly about the Christian, as a new man (or woman) and a mature, spiritual walk with the Lord. Certainly when Christian’s sin in the same old ways it grieves the Spirit. If we sin, we should fear God’s chastening! (Heb 12:3-11, note v. 6 where “scourges” is used! Ouch! We SHOULD fear that!)

Next John 3:14-21. Okay, v. 15, you believe in Him, you have eternal life. Believe means a saving faith in Christ and the end result is eternal life. Eternal life. This is actually the first of 17 references in the Gospel of John to eternal life or everlasting life. Christians = True Believers = Eternal Life. They have it. It is a done deal. Not once did John say believers will have “the possibility of eternal life.” Yes, this is consistent with the sheep that never perish. V. 16 agrees. V. 17 who in the world is saved? All of us = universal salvation? No, that would not be Scriptural since people go to hell. But v. 18 does clarify it. Those who are trusting in Jesus for their salvation, true believers, are the ones in the world who are saved. VV. 19-21 provides a clean finish to this conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. John the Baptist finishes the chapter with, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 KJV. Think about it. I don’t think this lines up very well at all with RCC ecumenism, and it should provide a great reason for Christians to share the Gospel.

Then John 14:15. By all means, the proper Christian attitude. Love for Christ is inseparable from obedience. If I love Him, I will do all I can to obey and bring him Glory in my attitudes and actions. A Christian should be above reproach. But it is so true that we aren’t always (1 John 1:8-10). So, when I sin – not IF – when, then the Holy Spirit will convict me of that sin and I will repent of it (assuming I’m a true Christian, of course). I’m thankful for God’s faithfulness and assurance (1 Cor 10:13; 1 John 5:13).

Thank-you for the Bible study and reminder of Christian attitudes and actions.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[fbl9]

The Epistle to the Romans state plainly" be not high minded perhaps He might not spare thee" " abide in His goodness: otherwise thou wilt be cut off" 11:22-24.

 

[teeboy]

The Epistle to the Romans state plainly" be not high minded perhaps He might not spare thee" " abide in His goodness: otherwise thou wilt be cut off" 11:22-24.

Don’t judge others and don’t judge yourself; I often confess this. God is the Judge.

One who is truely contrite does not judge himself nor himself relative to others.

 

[David_Castlen]

Don’t judge others and don’t judge yourself; I often confess this. God is the Judge.

One who is truely contrite does not judge himself nor himself relative to others.

Judging others, according to this discussion, means to not determine whether they are saved or not; BUT, we must judge the actions of others in order to train and instruct. Only God (and the Church sometimes) knows who is in heaven. But we should know what is right and wrong and point out wrong when we see it so that those on milk can mature, and those doing the wrong can address their “problem.”

 

[teeboy]

Judging others, according to this discussion, means to not determine whether they are saved or not; BUT, we must judge the actions of others in order to train and instruct. Only God (and the Church sometimes) knows who is in heaven. But we should know what is right and wrong and point out wrong when we see it so that those on milk can mature, and those doing the wrong can address their “problem.”

It is not up to the Church to Judge. However, it is up to the Church to instruct.

Running off with the Bible and interpreting it yourself outstide of Catholic dogma is a wrong that needs to be addressed. Hence, the Jesuits.

 

[highrigger1]

The best way to avoid sin is through good works. So, if the good works help you avoid sin, then it is easy to stay in the grace of God.

Assured can have several meanings.

One meaning is to be certain. I don’t think anyone can be certain of salvation. Why? Because one can’t judge himself; God is the judge.

Another meaning is to cause to feel sure. I feel good about my salvation today. However, I went to confession yesterday and I received the Eucharist at the Vigil Mass yesterday.

teeboy,

Of course we cannot judge ourself. But Jesus said he came to save and not to judge. He promised that our sins are forgiven whenever we ask. That is the source of our assurance, that God always forgives and loves us no matter what comes our way when we seek his forgivenss. And we should live lives of repentance, always keeping in Gods Grace,

Nothing you do as a work should make you feel good about your salvation. To do that is to trust in yourself and in religious busy works rather than Gods Grace. In fact I would argue it shows a lack of faith in his Grace because you trust yourself even more.

We should all have assurance of our salvation because salvation is to be saved from our sins and we know that is true when we trust in the promises of Jesus Christ.

Peace, JohnR

 

[David_Castlen]

It is not up to the Church to Judge. However, it is up to the Church to instruct.

Running off with the Bible and interpreting it yourself outstide of Catholic dogma is a wrong that needs to be addressed. Hence, the Jesuits.

I am not sure what you are saying. It IS up to the Church to judge; however, what you mean by “judge” maybe different than I. Ambiguity can lead to a lot of misunderstood premises. But no doubt about it the Church must judge actions. In a particular way: judging individuals in confession; in a universal way: judging just actions by a society.

 

[OldProf]

…let’s see… God gave His Son to sinners (Lamb of God) while enemies of God… the Son Came in the Flesh… died for all… not… died so that those who Believe would be Granted Life… each person choses to Believe or not in Christ… each Believer choses to remain in Christ or, as Lucifer did, strike on his/her own… nope, God does not force Salvation on anyone!

I will clarify. God chooses. He elects some to salvation, or all would be lost. Why? Because, as Paul teaches, dead people cannot DO anything. Angel, read these verses: Eph 2:1-3; Rom 3:10-12. See what I mean? This is clear Scriptural testimony, and a sad one. We are sinners in a fallen world.

Let’s give credit to where the credit is due – Salvation is of the Lord! Check it out: John 1:12-13; John 6:37-40, 44, 64-65; John 17 (whole chapter is, of course, excellent), Acts 16:14, 1 Cor 1:26-31. Could these verses be any clearer that it is God who chooses, God who calls?

…the confusion you have is that you believe that since God grants us the ability to go to Jesus (regeneration of the flesh) once in fellowship God will remove our abilities to reject Christ’s Authority and forever remain locked in fellowship against our wills…

The will of the elect, or we could say the sheep, is to follow Jesus Christ. The elect truly are locked in (that’s a real good thing!) because we have eternal life (in the original Greek it means eternal life) and we have assurance that when God begins a work in us, He will complete it (Php 1:6), He will perfect it (Heb 12:2). What IS against the will of the elect is to sin by making unrighteous choices.

…it is totally contrary… our awakening (regeneration) compels us to Christ and through the Holy Spirit we gain a fuller fellowship and knowledge of Christ (the Triune God, as a matter of fact) and, as Believers, our wills humbly submit to God’s Will–yet, any time that we chose to do so, we can exercise our freedom to not only not stay in fellowship with God but to challange God’s Authority (something that society has been working on, with Satan’s assistance, since Adam and Eve); when Yahweh God said “you are gods” and “be perfect for I am perfect,” He meant it! …an automaton cannot be considered to be a creature of will nor a child of God… as God’s children we are Granted our free will… as a child of God, each Believer chooses God instead of self (ego)… and as in the parable of the “Prodigal Son,” God allows us to choose to exist away from Him–it is not assurance that ultimatedly saves those who reject God but their conversion, repentence and return to the Fold!

Maran atha!

Let’s look at it from birth. When we are born, we are sinners and we will sin as we grow up. In fact, St Paul says we won’t seek God and we won’t ever be righteous (Rom 3:9-18). I’ve seen this attitude displayed many times by most of my university colleagues. They want nothing to do with any god. Thus, mankind’s free will is in just one direction. We have the free will to choose the sin we desire to do. This is spiritual death. As Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead.” (Matt 8:22 partial; Luke 9:60 partial).

Is there hope? Yes. We should always pray that God will do a work in that person or that loved one’s life that will draw them to Jesus. But it clearly is God who does the calling and choosing, according to the Scriptures.

Maybe this clarification helps (and the verses I’ve given are very important, please prayerfully read them).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[teeboy]

I am not sure what you are saying. It IS up to the Church to judge; however, what you mean by “judge” maybe different than I. Ambiguity can lead to a lot of misunderstood premises. But no doubt about it the Church must judge actions. In a particular way: judging individuals in confession; in a universal way: judging just actions by a society.

When I say Judge, I mean Judge in the place of God as to whether one is saved.

 

[teeboy]

I am not sure what you are saying. It IS up to the Church to judge; however, what you mean by “judge” maybe different than I. Ambiguity can lead to a lot of misunderstood premises. But no doubt about it the Church must judge actions. In a particular way: judging individuals in confession; in a universal way: judging just actions by a society.

Of course the Church can Judge actions. However, the Church shouldn’t judge an individual. A priest can forgive your sinful actions. A priest does not judge your conscience and whether your sinful actions are venial or mortal.

 

[teeboy]

teeboy,

Of course we cannot judge ourself. But Jesus said he came to save and not to judge. He promised that our sins are forgiven whenever we ask. That is the source of our assurance, that God always forgives and loves us no matter what comes our way when we seek his forgivenss. And we should live lives of repentance, always keeping in Gods Grace,

Nothing you do as a work should make you feel good about your salvation. To do that is to trust in yourself and in religious busy works rather than Gods Grace. In fact I would argue it shows a lack of faith in his Grace because you trust yourself even more.

We should all have assurance of our salvation because salvation is to be saved from our sins and we know that is true when we trust in the promises of Jesus Christ.

Peace, JohnR

Your sins are forgiven as long as you are contrite. However, if you are not contrite, a priest can forgive your sins.