Assurance of Salvation

[OldProf]

I don’t think St Augustine would disagree much with this. I don’t know that I do. However what I want to know is it true that God selects, pretty much on a random basis, to whom He will give his enabling grace? Also, I presume that those He does not give His grace will be damned.

Also why do the true believers need their theology sharpened and their witness to God’s true glory strengthened? After all, they are of the elect and will go to heaven regardless. By definition they will not fall away.

Another question. If the world is nothing but unrighteous and full of hateful sinners, why did God love it?

A person who is a Christian, that is, one of the elect, is a “new creation” and is IN CHRIST (2 Cor 5:17). Way back on p. 5 #72, I gave a list (Evidence List 2) of what a Christian will look like if they examine themselves (2 Cor 13:5). The elect desire truth, like a baby desires milk (“Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation” 1 Peter 2:2). Watch a hungry baby go after a bottle.

That is why true believers, the elect, seek spiritual growth. The elect want to know the truth. They want to know Jesus, God incarnate, “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6 partial).

God DOES love the world (John 3:16), but as to the “Why does God …?” questions, I don’t answer them without clear Scriptural evidence. I know that God is a righteous judge, and He is angry with the sinner everyday (Psalm 7:11). With Abraham, I ask, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Gen 18:25 partial)

I trust that He will.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[po18guy]

mackbrislawn, just to make sure you understand. You are trying to defend the position that a sheep in Jesus’ flock can be lost and go to hell.

If so, then

1. Jesus lied when He said His sheep will never perish (John 10:28).
2. Jesus cannot do the will of the Father to raise up all the sheep on the last day (John 6:39).
3. John is wrong that Christians will continue in the faith (1 John 2:19).
4. Jesus loses sheep proving He is not a good shepherd (Luke 15:4-6, John 10:11).
5. Paul is wrong in that a good work begun by God will actually fail (Php 1:6).
6. Hebrews 12:2 is wrong - it is man who is the “finisher” of his faith.

Do you really want to defend that? I think you really need to reconsider the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32). The youngest son was one of the elect who went astray. The older son, like the self righteous Pharisee, was not. Dr. John MacArthur, in his book “The Tale of Two Sons,” provides a full analysis and contextual argument. In a book review, Tim Challies says,

“In the book’s opening chapter MacArthur makes clear the central and culminating lesson of the parable: “Jesus is pointing out the stark contrast between God’s own delight in the redemption of sinners and the Pharisees’ inflexible hostility toward those same sinners.” Though the younger son is important to the story, his redemption is not the main point. Rather, this parable is to serve as “a mirror for every human heart and conscience” that will reflect either God’s love for fallen sinners or a human hardness and arrogance that would deny that such hardened sinners could ever know His love.”

Regarding the exhortations to falling away, remember CONTEXT IS KEY! See my response to jchrichton below.
Regarding warnings about false teachers, that still applies today.
If you have specific questions on John 15 (pretty common with those who think the sheep can be lost), what are they?
The sheep, the elect, can have joy and peace (John 15:11, Rom 15:13, Gal 5:22) and assurance (1 John 5:13).

Sincerely, OldProf

Explain Romans 11:22.

 

[lulu88]

**

If a True Christian can fall, slip away, apostatize, or be severed from Christ, not only will eternal security, the head of their idol, come toppling down, but so will the rest of her defiled body! Is it any wonder that, despite the fact that the whole of Scripture is decisively against them, they must at all costs save their precious license for sin?

We could list many cases of certain individuals who have been made examples of in the apostolic record. We could list several clear and unambiguous passages that either speak directly about the possibility and danger of apostasy and falling away or give inference to this possibility through logical conclusion. Nevertheless, this will not do, for the high priests of this unholy deception have already cast a spell of Scriptural blindness with their twisting of the Word of God that is so pleasing to the tickled ears of their hearers. Their minds, eyes, and hearts have been dulled and darkened so that they cannot comprehend these truths.**

**I never understood the OSAS doctrine, as a former Lutheran, now a Catholic of many years, we always professed and taught, Faith is also an action on our part, which includes The Lords Commandments.

lulu**

 

[OldProf]

Explain Romans 11:22.

This is a verse that comes up often. And I did answer it previously. I’m at work, however, so don’t want to spend time tying to find that post (although I’ve only posted on this thread, so the search on your part might be easy enough).

For this verse think globally. That is what Paul is clearly saying in the context, when he speaks of the Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews) in Romans 9 thru 11. A people group can be grafted in, cut-off, grafted in again, as Paul indicates in the context.

There ARE verses you can attach to the individual believer regarding their salvation - this just isn’t one of them.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

**

If a True Christian can fall, slip away, apostatize, or be severed from Christ, not only will eternal security, the head of their idol, come toppling down, but so will the rest of her defiled body! Is it any wonder that, despite the fact that the whole of Scripture is decisively against them, they must at all costs save their precious license for sin?

We could list many cases of certain individuals who have been made examples of in the apostolic record. We could list several clear and unambiguous passages that either speak directly about the possibility and danger of apostasy and falling away or give inference to this possibility through logical conclusion. Nevertheless, this will not do, for the high priests of this unholy deception have already cast a spell of Scriptural blindness with their twisting of the Word of God that is so pleasing to the tickled ears of their hearers. Their minds, eyes, and hearts have been dulled and darkened so that they cannot comprehend these truths.**

**I never understood the OSAS doctrine, as a former Lutheran, now a Catholic of many years, we always professed and taught, Faith is also an action on our part, which includes The Lords Commandments.

lulu**

Lulu, I’m pretty much the only one on this thread who believes the Bible teaches OSAS such that a person can have eternal security and the assurance of salvation. If you want to see some of the background, I began posting on page 3. I believe we have a clear teaching from Jesus based on John 9:1 thru 10:30 that His sheep will never perish. Please consider reading some of the posts since page 3 in this thread.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[lulu88]

This is a verse that comes up often. And I did answer it previously. I’m at work, however, so don’t want to spend time tying to find that post (although I’ve only posted on this thread, so the search on your part might be easy enough).

For this verse think globally. That is what Paul is clearly saying in the context, when he speaks of the Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews) in Romans 9 thru 11. A people group can be grafted in, cut-off, grafted in again, as Paul indicates in the context.

There ARE verses you can attach to the individual believer regarding their salvation - this just isn’t one of them.

Regards, OldProf

**It seems the OSAS believers concentrate on a couple of verses from Paul to misinterpret the gospels,rather than follow what Jesus Christ himself instructed Christians to do.

I cannot comprehend how they disregard the commandments and preach lawlessness as gospel and the teachings of Christ.For in John 17:12 Jesus said,

Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition," direct proof that in spite of the desire of God that "none shall be lost,

There was at least one of the chosen twelve that was! (Judas walked away from Christ of his own free will.) The will of God never violates the free will he has given us to exercise!**

**
Without the support of any verses positing this fallacious teaching(OSAS), none of their scripture render support on its own and is not the gospel of Christ.**
God bless
Lulu

 

[po18guy]

This is a verse that comes up often. And I did answer it previously. I’m at work, however, so don’t want to spend time tying to find that post (although I’ve only posted on this thread, so the search on your part might be easy enough).

For this verse think globally. That is what Paul is clearly saying in the context, when he speaks of the Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews) in Romans 9 thru 11. A people group can be grafted in, cut-off, grafted in again, as Paul indicates in the context.

There ARE verses you can attach to the individual believer regarding their salvation - this just isn’t one of them.

Regards, OldProf

Peter wrote about what certain people did with Paul’s writings, as they did with all the scriptures. Something to think about, I would offer. Please explain how “people group” is not adding to and twisting the meaning of scripture. Paul is clearly addressing individuals, as is seen here, just three verses earlier:

Romans 11:19
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Now, I suppose that your line of thinking provides you with some level of comfort, but how can it be a rational belief, since our Lord told us that “he who perseveres to the end will be saved” (Matthew 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13)? Before His ascension, our Lord did not say “The people who believe, and are baptized, will be saved” He said “He” in the singular (Mark 16:16). Not a peep about “people group” in that. As well, in John 15, our Lord said that we must “remain in Him”, else we will wither and be gathered to be burned. As to “peoples” we sit in the 'judgment seat" of Christ, facing individual judgment, not the judgment stadium, where entire peoples are judged. To quote our Lord, “You are greatly mislead”

But, you remain free to make of scripture what you will. I would be careful about proposing to teach it, however, being mindful of James 3:1

 

[Jerry-Jet]

OldProf: I’m still waiting to know if the brances that do not continue to abide in Christ are saved or not.

They are cut off from the main vine and thrown into the fire.

How can they be joined with Jesus who is the main vine–have their life because of Him–and later be cut off and burned if once saved always saved is true?

Answer me!

 

[po18guy]

OldProf: I’m still waiting to know if the brances that do not continue to abide in Christ are saved or not.

They are cut off from the main vine and thrown into the fire.

How can they be joined with Jesus who is the main vine–have their life because of Him–and later be cut off and burned if once saved always saved is true?

Answer me!

Sadly, what he is asking us to do is to believe less than we do now. Less than one hundred generations of Christians have believed. Less than the men who wrote his scripture believed. Less than Luther. Less than Calvin. Less than Zwingli. I truly wonder if he and his bible are more illuminated than all previous generations of believers - combined.

I wonder what his twist in 2 Peter 1:20 is…

 

[OldProf]

Peter wrote about what certain people did with Paul’s writings, as they did with all the scriptures. Something to think about, I would offer. Please explain how “people group” is not adding to and twisting the meaning of scripture. Paul is clearly addressing individuals, as is seen here, just three verses earlier:

Romans 11:19
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Now, I suppose that your line of thinking provides you with some level of comfort, but how can it be a rational belief, since our Lord told us that “he who perseveres to the end will be saved” (Matthew 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13)? Before His ascension, our Lord did not say “The people who believe, and are baptized, will be saved” He said “He” in the singular (Mark 16:16). Not a peep about “people group” in that. As well, in John 15, our Lord said that we must “remain in Him”, else we will wither and be gathered to be burned. As to “peoples” we sit in the 'judgment seat" of Christ, facing individual judgment, not the judgment stadium, where entire peoples are judged. To quote our Lord, “You are greatly mislead”

But, you remain free to make of scripture what you will. I would be careful about proposing to teach it, however, being mindful of James 3:1

No. Romans 11:11-24 is about gentiles being Ingrafted Branches. Please go to biblegateway and look at some of the modern translations. Try the ESV or NIV. They are more readable and more understandable. The “I” you mention in verse 19 could just as correctly be read “we Gentiles”.

Please try to discern the context of Romans chapters 9 thru 11.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

OldProf: I’m still waiting to know if the brances that do not continue to abide in Christ are saved or not.

They are cut off from the main vine and thrown into the fire.

How can they be joined with Jesus who is the main vine–have their life because of Him–and later be cut off and burned if once saved always saved is true?

Answer me!

Jerry-Jet, here is my problem. I don’t remember you giving a verse reference. So, if I assume it is in John 15 and take the time to prepare a response taking into account the context of the verse, it will have been wasted time if I guessed wrong on the verse. And I don’t like to waste time.

So, maybe I missed it. Did you ever give me a verse reference?

Also, the tone of “Answer me!” is an arrogance I often will ignore. Just so you know.

Regards, OldProf

 

[po18guy]

No. Romans 11:11-24 is about gentiles being Ingrafted Branches. Please go to biblegateway and look at some of the modern translations. Try the ESV or NIV. They are more readable and more understandable. The “I” you mention in verse 19 could just as correctly be read “we Gentiles”.

Please try to discern the context of Romans chapters 9 thru 11.

Regards, OldProf

I don’t interpret the bible for myself, as that risks leading myself astray, and is anti-biblical. I adhere to what the Apostle Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1:20. I don’t guide myself, as that would then be the blind leading the blind. Jesus did not leave us orphans. He founded a Church to teach us, guided by the Holy Spirit.

For your information, I use BibleGateway daily, but I default to the Douay-Rheims bible, which predates even the King James Version. I have little use for agenda-driven modern and worldly translations. I have a 19th century KJV, as well as the modern NASB, NIV, an Open Bible, and various others. The NIV strikes me as a very dumbed down translation.

Since the bible does nowhere say that you cannot lose your salvation, I proceed on the assumption that I can, indeed, lose it.

Catholics have the absolute assurance that God’s promises are true and will never be taken back. We have the assurance of salvation IF…

If we persevere to the end.
If we remain in Jesus so that He will remain in us.
If we partake of the Sacraments which our Lord instituted as channels of God’s grace.

I do not assume that Jesus’ death on the cross gives me a license to sin without both temporal and eternal cost.

 

[mackbrislawn]

A person who is a Christian, that is, one of the elect, is a “new creation” and is IN CHRIST (2 Cor 5:17). Way back on p. 5 #72, I gave a list (Evidence List 2) of what a Christian will look like if they examine themselves (2 Cor 13:5). The elect desire truth, like a baby desires milk (“Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation” 1 Peter 2:2). Watch a hungry baby go after a bottle.

That is why true believers, the elect, seek spiritual growth. The elect want to know the truth. They want to know Jesus, God incarnate, “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6 partial).

God DOES love the world (John 3:16), but as to the “Why does God …?” questions, I don’t answer them without clear Scriptural evidence. I know that God is a righteous judge, and He is angry with the sinner everyday (Psalm 7:11). With Abraham, I ask, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Gen 18:25 partial)

I trust that He will.

Sincerely, OldProf

Everything you say here is fine, nothing to disagree with.

Although I still don’t know how God picks those to whom to give his enabling grace.

And I think it odd that God would love something totally depraved and sinful. I though He hated sin. You know, I don’t think you will find an answer in scripture as to “Why does God…”

And those He chooses not to give His grace, they are damned automatically? Did Christ die for these or not?

 

[OldProf]

**It seems the OSAS believers concentrate on a couple of verses from Paul to misinterpret the gospels,rather than follow what Jesus Christ himself instructed Christians to do.

I cannot comprehend how they disregard the commandments and preach lawlessness as gospel and the teachings of Christ.For in John 17:12 Jesus said,

Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition," direct proof that in spite of the desire of God that "none shall be lost,

There was at least one of the chosen twelve that was! (Judas walked away from Christ of his own free will.) The will of God never violates the free will he has given us to exercise!**

**
Without the support of any verses positing this fallacious teaching(OSAS), none of their scripture render support on its own and is not the gospel of Christ.**
God bless
Lulu

Lulu, you have misrepresented the OSAS argument with your first two sentences. You would not have done that if you had reviewed earlier posts. Next you have taken John 17:12 out of context and with an incomplete quote. Here it is as Jesus prayed for His disciples:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Now the greater context.

So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. John 6:67-71

“Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,” John 13:1-2

So, in context, we can see that Jesus chose Judas to fulfill the Scriptures. In Jesus’ prayer, we know Judas was lost. Why would that be? Because Judas was not a believer. He didn’t have a Savior.

Where does it say “Judas walked away from Christ of his own free will.”?
Where does it say God will never violate free will?

Consider Jonah chapter 1. At the end of chapter 2, Jonah says “Salvation is of the Lord” and the great fish vomits him on to the dry land.

Consider Paul’s conversion in Acts 9. Paul was notorious for his persecution of Christians.

13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” From Acts 9.

And, with your last sentence, once again a misrepresentation. I started posting on this thread on page 3, #42. If you review and follow the scriptural arguments presented, you will see why your statements here are fallacious.

And note, Jesus did say His sheep “will never perish” (John 10:28).

Jesus did say, “37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” From John 6.

And even earlier, Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

The Scriptures form a cohesive whole that do not contradict themselves. Please consider reading the older posts on this thread. It is the Scriptures that are God breathed.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Everything you say here is fine, nothing to disagree with.

Although I still don’t know how God picks those to whom to give his enabling grace.

And I think it odd that God would love something totally depraved and sinful. I though He hated sin. You know, I don’t think you will find an answer in scripture as to “Why does God…”

And those He chooses not to give His grace, they are damned automatically? Did Christ die for these or not?

God has mercy on those He chooses. Remember, God has omniscience, the ultimate “big picture.” Consider Paul’s words:

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

From Romans 9.

Man, in the image of God, the “IMAGO DEI”, is a special and beloved creation of God. He has a plan, and the Fall (Gen 3) was a part of it all.

God chooses some unto salvation, and the others He does not and leaves to their own sinful lifestyle and choices. Jesus died only for the elect. In His high priestly prayer (John 17) before the crucifixion, He says,

6 I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.

And it is the Scriptures “which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (See 2 Tim 3:14-15)

Regards, OldProf

 

[po18guy]

Consider Paul’s words:

You have quoted Paul ad nauseam. Barely a peep from our Lord Jesus in your posts!

And it is the Scriptures “which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (See 2 Tim 3:14-15)

Stop right there! You are twisting! What you fail to realize is that Timothy, the Bereans, and everyone else, had absolutely no idea who the Messiah was, based on the scriptures. They had only the Old Testament, which did not name Jesus. Who then, first spoke the name of Jesus to them?

The answer, of course, is that each and every one of them had to hear Paul’s oral Apostolic teaching. It was Paul - not scripture - that taught them about Jesus of Nazareth. He taught orally, handing on (Tradition - paradosis) of what he had received from the Lord. A tiny portion of it was later reduced to writing.

 

[mackbrislawn]

God has mercy on those He chooses. Remember, God has omniscience, the ultimate “big picture.”

 

[OldProf]

[a]You have quoted Paul ad nauseam. Barely a peep from our Lord Jesus in your posts!

Stop right there! You are twisting! What you fail to realize is that Timothy, the Bereans, and everyone else, had absolutely no idea who the Messiah was, based on the scriptures. They had only the Old Testament, which did not name Jesus. Who then, first spoke the name of Jesus to them?

The answer, of course, is that each and every one of them had to hear Paul’s oral Apostolic teaching. It was Paul - not scripture - that taught them about Jesus of Nazareth. He taught orally, handing on (Tradition - paradosis) of what he had received from the Lord. A tiny portion of it was later reduced to writing.

[a] “Barely a peep”? Hmmm. po18guy, you have just made a false statement. This thread on the assurance of salvation proves you wrong. Since page 3, #42, my posts demonstrate I quote many New Testament authors (Matthew, Luke, John, Paul, Peter). In fact, #373 to lulu88 above doesn’t quote from Paul at all.

Now, I know what a Christian should do when they make a statement that proves to be false. I’m wondering what you will do.

You were wrong about that. What else are you wrong about?

** Next, is this a thread on “sola scriptura” or on “assurance of salvation”? Answer: Assurance of Salvation. I have provided a fairly focused biblical case for assurance since post #42. And, yes, I have used many quotes from the New Testament. In fact, a considerable number for St John.

You say, “What you fail to realize …” Your judgment of what I do and do not realize is nothing more than an assertion on your part. Be careful of your judgment of others, especially when you follow that with obvious things that I DO realize about the Old Testament Scriptures, and of Paul telling Timothy about those very Scriptures. He makes a strong case at the end of 2 Timothy, vv. 3:15 thru to the end of the letter (please read it at biblegateway), for the Scriptures and for active ministry.

Remember what Jesus did on the road to Emmaus? “And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” Luke 24:27 ESV. I remember in about 1994, not long after I had become a Christian, reading some of the articles from Jews-for-Jesus, and how they used the Old Testament to teach the Gospel to serious Jews who would only accept the Old Testament. And clearly this was a ministry of Paul right after his conversion (Acts 9:20-22).

What do you think the New Testament is? Writing then was NOT like writing today which is easy to do and inexpensive. If something was written down, especially with the intention of passing it on or passing copies of it on, it was of SUPREME importance. (Passed on? see 1 Thess 5:27, Col 4:16, even a blessing to those who read Revelation, Rev 1:3)

The New Testament Scriptures provide the most important summaries of Christian Apostolic teaching that was to be passed on, don’t you think? And here in 2 Timothy, we have what is probably the last writing of Paul. 2 Tim 3:15 (along with vv. 16-17) is a valid quote to demonstrate the relationship between the OT Scriptures and their message of what we would need to know concerning salvation.

Peter accepted Paul’s letters.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul** also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. (From 2 Peter 3)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (From 2 Peter 1)

Jesus said, 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (from John 14 ESV) A real good indicator of the forthcoming New Testament Scriptures.

And one final comment. You and I are old enough and mature enough to have a serious conversation about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Are you willing to engage in that? I’m interested in the Truth. Would you be willing to review my arguments in this post so far and show me where you think I may be wrong. If I am wrong, I do want to know it and be corrected.

Regards, OldProf

 

[po18guy]

[a] “Barely a peep”? Hmmm. po18guy, you have just made a false statement. This thread on the assurance of salvation proves you wrong. Since page 3, #42, my posts demonstrate I quote many New Testament authors (Matthew, Luke, John, Paul, Peter). In fact, #373 to lulu88 above doesn’t quote from Paul at all.

Now, I know what a Christian should do when they make a statement that proves to be false. I’m wondering what you will do.

You were wrong about that. What else are you wrong about?

And one final comment. You and I are old enough and mature enough to have a serious conversation about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Are you willing to engage in that? I’m interested in the Truth. Would you be willing to review my arguments in this post so far and show me where you think I may be wrong. If I am wrong, I do want to know it and be corrected.

Regards, OldProf

First, I did note that your recent posts were noticeably “Paul heavy”, which is not unusual for a protestant. I did not go through each and every one of your posts, which is my bad. Looking back fiurther, I do note that you cite a greater variety of books than most. That is very good, since the entirety of the scriptures have meaning. Second, I am a layman. I am not an educator, clergyman or seminarian. Nothing but a layman. I presume to know nothing except what the Church teaches. As a Catholic, I place absolute trust in the Church, and in no other authority. Rather than teach, I would rather simply repeat, to the best of my limited ability, what the Church teaches, as teachers will receive the more severe condemnation (James 3:1). What Catholics do have is absolute assurance that God’s promises are true and that He will honor them if we honor him by keeping His commandments. Salvation is conditional, not universal.

Back to basics. How far back does the OSAS interpretation of scripture go? Less than 500 years, to Jean Calvin, and stops dead. Naturally, it is based on Calvin’s opinion of the scriptures, yet, the scriptures are easily twisted, as noted in scripture (2 Peter 3:16). How do you know that your doctrine is correct? It is clear that you hold it to be divinely inspired truth, even though there are many verses that reasonably argue against it. However, and this is crucial: you are alleging that the 2,000 year old Catholic as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches are both wrong and that Calvin’s private interpretation of scripture is correct. This is your allegation, and the burden remains with you. You are the plaintiff and the Catholic Church is the defendant. Pardon me if my defense is somewhat impassioned.

But, never mind the assurance of salvation. How can you be sure that your interpretation of any scripture is correct and the Methodist, or Episcopalian, or Baptist is wrong? Who can the two of you go to for a resolution? No one. I recall here that Jesus did not leave us orphans. The common assertion is that the Holy Spirit has lead one to their conclusions. Fine. How do you know that it was the Holy Spirit, since we are dwelling among passing sprits - each of which waits to lead astray? Passing spirits, which deceive unsuspecting Christians. We are to test the spirits. The Holy Spirit always and everywhere leads to humble submission and unity. The demon leads to rebellion and division - always and everywhere.

The OSAS interpretation has divided, rather than unified - even among brother protestants! Brothers who are using the exact same bible! How on earth can it be of the Holy Spirit? Are non-Calvinists dim-witted? Certainly not!

What I do know is that Jesus founded a Church and gave it all authority. He guaranteed that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He left it as the final arbiter of disputes. He promised, then delivered, the Holy Spirit to lead His Church into all truth. Paul reaffirmed that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. On this, my entire confidence and assurance rests. 1,500 years later, I believe absolutely that a demon of division inspired a rebellion that rejected that same Church. The fruits of the rebellion are division among brothers. That is of the devil.

As to interpreting scripture, let’s agree that it is our supreme authority. Its first commandment, and I hyperbolically paraphrase: “Thou shalt not privately interpret scripture” 2 Peter 1:20. No way around that. No way. God has always chosen and sent those to interpret the scriptures, in both the OT and the NT. Examples that come to mind are Nehemiah 8:5-8 and Acts 8:26-39. Ezra and his Priests had authority. Philip had authority. I, as a layman, have no authority to interpret, and neither does anyone else who was not chosen and sent by God - no matter their status, position, education or ambition.

Those who were not sent, but rather, sent themselves (anti-Apostles) are exemplified by Simon the sorcerer (Acts 8:9-11, 18-24) and the seven sons of Sceva (Acts 19:13-16). Very bad results in both cases. Jesus chose Apostles, gave them authority and prayed that they all be one, as He and the Father are One. It is clear that the devil prayed that we disagree and divide. Whose prayer was answered?

Bottom line: Authority. Who has it and who does not? Unity vs. division. Truth vs. error. Rock vs. quicksand. Holy Spirit vs. passing spirit.

The defense rests, but reserves the right to call additional witnesses.

 

[mackbrislawn]

OldProf;9410674

Jesus said, 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (from John 14 ESV) A real good indicator of the forthcoming New Testament Scriptures.

Not necessarily.

However, this statement is a good indicator of how one’s prior mindset influences how they intepret scripture. The apostles were sent out to preach, and this passage shows how they will remember what to say in their preaching endeavors, because the Holy Spirit will be behind the apostles when teaching the church. The early Christians would have thought of it this way, since they depended on preaching in order to hear the word.

But if one’s mind is scripture instead of preaching oriented, of course that mind will seize upon thinking John’s passage is referring to scripture. And it is, but only secondarily and retroactively.