Assurance of Salvation

[Mintaka]

probare = to test; to approve.

reprobare = to condemn.

You can’t be reprobate without being tested.

You cannot be tested unless you have free will to pass or fail the test.

The Greek word is “adokimos”, which also means something that has been tested and rejected.

The opposite of “adokimos” is “dokimos”, tested and approved. It shows up in Rom. 14:18 (“well-pleasing to God and approved by men”); Rom. 16:10 (“Apelles, approved in Christ”); 1 Cor. 11:19 (“approved elders”); 2 Tim. 2:15 (where someone approved is an honest, truthful workman for God), and so on.

 

[OldProf]

Not necessarily.

However, this statement is a good indicator of how one’s prior mindset influences how they intepret scripture. The apostles were sent out to preach, and this passage shows how they will remember what to say in their preaching endeavors, because the Holy Spirit will be behind the apostles when teaching the church. The early Christians would have thought of it this way, since they depended on preaching in order to hear the word.

But if one’s mind is scripture instead of preaching oriented, of course that mind will seize upon thinking John’s passage is referring to scripture. And it is, but only secondarily and retroactively.

So, when Matthew, or Peter, or Paul wrote a letter that got circulated and copied and circulated and copied and (you know) … those letters were not accepted as Scripture? Did you see the 2 Peter 3 quote I provided earlier? Don’t you think it was pretty rare for the early Christians to get an audience with the apostles? And when you think about writing back then - the difficulties and expense - don’t you think what the Apostles and NT writers sent out were concise summaries of what was of utmost importance and doctrinal accuracy? The highest doctrine?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

probare = to test; to approve.

reprobare = to condemn.

You can’t be reprobate without being tested.

You cannot be tested unless you have free will to pass or fail the test.

The Greek word is “adokimos”, which also means something that has been tested and rejected.

The opposite of “adokimos” is “dokimos”, tested and approved. It shows up in Rom. 14:18 (“well-pleasing to God and approved by men”); Rom. 16:10 (“Apelles, approved in Christ”); 1 Cor. 11:19 (“approved elders”); 2 Tim. 2:15 (where someone approved is an honest, truthful workman for God), and so on.

Nice. And those are verses I really like, too. So you are saying that the natural man is not really “dead” in trespasses and sins, but merely crippled, with the ability to do some righteous acts or thoughts. Is that correct?

Regards, OldProf

 

[po18guy]

So, when Matthew, or Peter, or Paul wrote a letter that got circulated and copied and circulated and copied and (you know) … those letters were not accepted as Scripture? Did you see the 2 Peter 3 quote I provided earlier? Don’t you think it was pretty rare for the early Christians to get an audience with the apostles? And when you think about writing back then - the difficulties and expense - don’t you think what the Apostles and NT writers sent out were concise summaries of what was of utmost importance and doctrinal accuracy? The highest doctrine?

Regards, OldProf

We have a fundamental difference in how we view early Church history. Sola scriptura believers must, of necessity, tie everything to the scriptures, Since their assemblies depend 100% upon the Tradition of the scriptures. The impression I have is that you view the New Testament as a prophetic product, almost an end in itself.

Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have not only the scriptures (and a more complete collection of them) as well as successors to the Apostles, whose authoritative oral teaching was greatly condensed into the New Testament writings.

Since there exists not a single original document of any of the inspired authors, we must trust some authority to have ensured that the copies of copies that were handed on are as genuine as humanly practicable.

That authority is the Church that Jesus founded.

 

[po18guy]

Nice. And those are verses I really like, too. So you are saying that the natural man is not really “dead” in trespasses and sins, but merely crippled, with the ability to do some righteous acts or thoughts. Is that correct?

Regards, OldProf

Even in our fallen state, we remain creations that exist in the image and likeness of God. Image = appearance. Likeness = qualities. Does Calvin imply that, since the fall, we are no longer made in God’s image and likeness?

 

[po18guy]

Nice. And those are verses I really like, too. So you are saying that the natural man is not really “dead” in trespasses and sins, but merely crippled, with the ability to do some righteous acts or thoughts. Is that correct?

Regards, OldProf

The prodigal son was dead in his sins, yet was capable of contrition and repentance. According to his father, he “was dead, but is alive.”

 

[mackbrislawn]

So, when Matthew, or Peter, or Paul wrote a letter that got circulated and copied and circulated and copied and (you know) … those letters were not accepted as Scripture? Did you see the 2 Peter 3 quote I provided earlier? Don’t you think it was pretty rare for the early Christians to get an audience with the apostles? And when you think about writing back then - the difficulties and expense - don’t you think what the Apostles and NT writers sent out were concise summaries of what was of utmost importance and doctrinal accuracy? The highest doctrine?

Regards, OldProf

I doubt the earliest Christians to whom the letters were written thought of them as scripture at the time. Not like OT scripture. Later they became scripture. Modern scholars think 2 Peter was written much later, maybe even in the 2nd century.

Rare for early Christians to get an audience with an apostle? Heck, it was the apostles who founded the churches! Paul was the one who preached to the Bereans for example. The early congregations were founded on preaching, not scripture. Preaching by the apostles whose words were brought to mind by the Holy Spirit. I know, when one is fixated upon writing, one forgets that preaching was the primary means of spreading the gospel. Then, secondarily and later, the Holy Spirit’s prompting applies to the apostles’ writings as well. That is what Peter is getting at in 2Peter 3:16, that the unlearned who don’t know the oral preaching of the apostles will come to the writings and misunderstand them! All the writings were given to be understood in the context of the prior oral preaching.

No, the highest doctrine of course was given orally. Writing was done later for occasional purposes to answer questions, and to edify and encourage. Do you think that the belief in the deity of Christ was something exegeted from the apostles’ writings? No, they had learned it orally and so later knew how to read the scriptures to defend the idea from scripture. The same with the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

 

[po18guy]

I doubt the earliest Christians to whom the letters were written thought of them as scripture at the time. Not like OT scripture. Later they became scripture. Modern scholars think 2 Peter was written much later, maybe even in the 2nd century.

Rare for early Christians to get an audience with an apostle? Heck, it was the apostles who founded the churches! Paul was the one who preached to the Bereans for example. The early congregations were founded on preaching, not scripture. Preaching by the apostles whose words were brought to mind by the Holy Spirit. I know, when one is fixated upon writing, one forgets that preaching was the primary means of spreading the gospel. Then, secondarily and later, the Holy Spirit’s prompting applies to the apostles’ writings as well. That is what Peter is getting at in 2Peter 3:16, that the unlearned who don’t know the oral preaching of the apostles will come to the writings and misunderstand them! All the writings were given to be understood in the context of the prior oral preaching.

No, the highest doctrine of course was given orally. Writing was done later for occasional purposes to answer questions, and to edify and encourage. Do you think that the belief in the deity of Christ was something exegeted from the apostles’ writings? No, they had learned it orally and so later knew how to read the scriptures to defend the idea from scripture. The same with the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

As to man’s perception of scripture, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have Christ’s True Presence within them in the Eucharist. “Some” of the non-Apostolic ecclesial communities that lack the Eucharist seem to seek for some alternate form of divine physical presence. The scriptures are all that is left to them to elevate to this level. In a few extreme cases, it appears to be idolatry.

A parallel to this is the “altar calls” and “sinner’s prayer” that have substituted for sacramental confession. Neither is in the bible. Converts have mentioned that these practices seem to them as a substitute for the Sacrament of Confession.

As to scripture, its purpose is to supplement and confirm the oral Apostolic teaching upon which our Lord funded His Church. It is that same oral Apostolic teaching (paradosis) that was later edited and condensed into scripture. For doubters, let us read the prologue to Luke:

Luke 1:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

We see from Luke’s writing that Theophilus learned nothing from the written Gospel that he ddid not already know from the oral Apostolic teaching. The blessing of oral teaching is that it cannot be twisted, can answer questions live and can address error in real time.

I truly wonder why (as bible Christians allege) the Holy Spirit leads every Christian as they read scripture, yet the Infinite God in the Holy Spirit somehow just cannot lead the Catholic/Orthodox Churches in their oral teaching and interpretation - especially since Christ promised this explicitly to the Apostles.

Unless they believe that the gates of hell prevailed against the Church - such belief also being against our Lord’s promise.

 

[teeboy]

It’s Saturday. Saturday is a day of penance. I plan on confession to a priest today. Reception of communion as well.

 

[Ubenedictus]

adrift, thank-you for your response and verse references. Maybe you had some typos in the response, but I was supporting the contention that unbelievers do not have the ability to do anything righteous. In Romans 1:18 thru 2:29, a pretty devestating picture is painted of man and of God’s righteous judgment. In Romans 3:1-8, we can see a part of the blessing of being a Jew, but is that enough? No. Man’s state before God is unrighteousness and nothing but unrighteousness. Man is un-holy and separated from God, and in desparate need of a savior.

I’ll now lay out a biblical argument. Verses below are from biblegateway on the web.

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (Rom 3:9-12 ESV)

Note Paul’s further testimony about man:

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:1-10 NKJV)

Here is one from Isaiah.

For we have all become like one who is unclean [ceremonially, like a leper], and all our righteousness (our best deeds of rightness and justice) is like filthy rags or a polluted garment; we all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away [far from God’s favor, hurrying us toward destruction]. (Isaiah 64:6 Amplified)

The term filthy rags or polluted garment is equivalent to “menstrual rags.” The CEB translation uses that term.

Here is one from Jeremiah.

The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer 17:9 NKJV)

The implication is that God only can know it. And God is not impressed.

Note how Jesus spoke.

Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” (Matt 8:21-22 NKJV, see also Luke 9:60)

Man needs God and His grace. A most beautiful picture is given in John 11, where Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. Why, after 4 days, and now in the tomb, can Lazarus respond to ANY command? Only one reason. Jesus has the power. God has the power. What power? Resurrection power, and it works both physically and spiritually. Without the enabling of God, no one who is spiritually dead, that is, one who is dead in trespasses and sins can do any righteous thing. Unregenerate man does not have that ability.

The verses you gave near the end are from Pauline epistles written to believers. And note Paul’s very words, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” (1 Cor 1:17 NKJV)

Finally, 1 John 2:19 applies to antichrists, and all that applies to them. They are, first and foremost, unbelievers, who mingle with believers. They also are false prophets, false teachers, and sew dischord into the Church with their false theology. And God allows it. These things will sharpen the theology of true believers and strengthen their witness to God’s true glory. Note how John says it, “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” (1 John 2:18-19 ESV)

I hope this better explains why I believe the Bible teaches that man is totally incapable of any righteousness, which includes the ability to believe in Jesus without God’s enabling grace.

Sincerely, OldProf

i think im lost, is anyone argueing that man can believe without grace? What are you argueing against.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

A person who is a Christian, that is, one of the elect, is a “new creation” and is IN CHRIST (2 Cor 5:17). Way back on p. 5 #72, I gave a list (Evidence List 2) of what a Christian will look like if they examine themselves (2 Cor 13:5). The elect desire truth, like a baby desires milk (“Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation” 1 Peter 2:2). Watch a hungry baby go after a bottle.

That is why true believers, the elect, seek spiritual growth. The elect want to know the truth. They want to know Jesus, God incarnate, “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6 partial).

God DOES love the world (John 3:16), but as to the “Why does God …?” questions, I don’t answer them without clear Scriptural evidence. I know that God is a righteous judge, and He is angry with the sinner everyday (Psalm 7:11). With Abraham, I ask, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Gen 18:25 partial)

I trust that He will.

Sincerely, OldProf

so after you examine yourself using that list you will know you are among the elect right? He who think he stands should take care least he falls.
Ubenedictus

 

[jcrichton]

**

If a True Christian can fall, slip away, apostatize, or be severed from Christ, not only will eternal security, the head of their idol, come toppling down, but so will the rest of her defiled body! Is it any wonder that, despite the fact that the whole of Scripture is decisively against them, they must at all costs save their precious license for sin?

We could list many cases of certain individuals who have been made examples of in the apostolic record. We could list several clear and unambiguous passages that either speak directly about the possibility and danger of apostasy and falling away or give inference to this possibility through logical conclusion. Nevertheless, this will not do, for the high priests of this unholy deception have already cast a spell of Scriptural blindness with their twisting of the Word of God that is so pleasing to the tickled ears of their hearers. Their minds, eyes, and hearts have been dulled and darkened so that they cannot comprehend these truths.**

**I never understood the OSAS doctrine, as a former Lutheran, now a Catholic of many years, we always professed and taught, Faith is also an action on our part, which includes The Lords Commandments.

lulu**

Hi, Lulu!

…the problem lies in accountability… it is wonderful to be secured in Salvation regardless of what we choose to do… just relying on being part of “the sheep” or “the elect” brings a “good-feeling” and joyous warmth: 'I can’t fail ‘cause God has my back!’

The problem with that theology is that neither Jesus nor His Apostles taught it!

…as St. Paul admonishes:

19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, 20 the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, 21 factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

1 Finally, brothers, we urge you and appeal to you in the Lord Jesus; we instructed you how to live in the way that pleases God, and you are so living; but make more progress still. 2 You are well aware of the instructions we gave you on the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 God wills you all to be holy. He wants you to keep away from sexual immorality, 4 and each one of you to know how to control his body in a way that is holy and honourable… 6 He wants nobody at all ever to sin by taking advantage of a brother in these matters; the Lord always pays back sins of that sort, as we told you before emphatically. 7 God called us to be holy, not to be immoral; 8 in other words, anyone who rejects this is rejecting not human authority, but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit… However, we do urge you, brothers, to go on making even greater progress… 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again, and that in the same way God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 We can tell you this from the Lord’s own teaching, that we who are still alive for the Lord’s coming will not have any advantage over those who have fallen asleep. 16 At the signal given by the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God, the Lord himself will come down from heaven; those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise, 17 and only after that shall we who remain alive be taken up in the clouds, together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. This is the way we shall be with the Lord for ever. 18 With such thoughts as these, then, you should encourage one another. (1 Thessalonians 4:1-18)

St. Paul is not addressing the non-Believers… he is reiterating his admonishments against returning to a sinful practice (existence); further, he explains that we (Believers) must abide in Christ and must die in Christ… that’s what makes us the “elect” and the “sheep!” If we fail to abide in Christ we are no better than those spoken about in Ezekiel 18 who turn from Yahweh God and yield to an unrighteous life! This warning comes directly from Christ Himself when He declares that not all who call Him “Lord” will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (God) but those who do the Will of the Father… sadly, it is more comforting to create and believe in an exegesis that relieves man from his personal responsibilities: ‘God said I’m saved… just read the clauses found in Scriptures!’

…another reason why sola Scriptura just doesn’t work!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Lulu, I’m pretty much the only one on this thread who believes the Bible teaches OSAS such that a person can have eternal security and the assurance of salvation. If you want to see some of the background, I began posting on page 3. I believe we have a clear teaching from Jesus based on John 9:1 thru 10:30 that His sheep will never perish. Please consider reading some of the posts since page 3 in this thread.

Sincerely, OldProf

OldProf, the only clear teaching from Jesus is that those who abide in Him and in whom He Abides will not die forever… Salvation outside of Christ is mute since He is the Resurrection and the Life! Scriptures do not Save:

19 Remember this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to listen but slow to speak and slow to human anger; 20 God’s saving justice is never served by human anger; 21 so do away with all impurities and remnants of evil. Humbly welcome the Word which has been planted in you and can save your souls. 22 But you must do what the Word tells you and not just listen to it and deceive yourselves. 23 Anyone who listens to the Word and takes no action is like someone who looks at his own features in a mirror and, 24 once he has seen what he looks like, goes off and immediately forgets it. 25 But anyone who looks steadily at the perfect law of freedom and keeps to it – not listening and forgetting, but putting it into practice – will be blessed in every undertaking. (St. James 1:19-25)

…as I have time and again attempted to help you understand: “be a doer of the Word!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Lulu, you have misrepresented the OSAS argument with your first two sentences. You would not have done that if you had reviewed earlier posts. Next you have taken John 17:12 out of context and with an incomplete quote. Here it is as Jesus prayed for His disciples:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Now the greater context.

So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. John 6:67-71

“Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,” John 13:1-2

So, in context, we can see that Jesus chose Judas to fulfill the Scriptures. In Jesus’ prayer, we know Judas was lost. Why would that be? Because Judas was not a believer. He didn’t have a Savior.

Where does it say “Judas walked away from Christ of his own free will.”?
Where does it say God will never violate free will?

Consider Jonah chapter 1. At the end of chapter 2, Jonah says “Salvation is of the Lord” and the great fish vomits him on to the dry land.

Consider Paul’s conversion in Acts 9. Paul was notorious for his persecution of Christians.

13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” From Acts 9.

And, with your last sentence, once again a misrepresentation. I started posting on this thread on page 3, #42. If you review and follow the scriptural arguments presented, you will see why your statements here are fallacious.

And note, Jesus did say His sheep “will never perish” (John 10:28).

Jesus did say, “37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” From John 6.

And even earlier, Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

The Scriptures form a cohesive whole that do not contradict themselves. Please consider reading the older posts on this thread. It is the Scriptures that are God breathed.

Sincerely, OldProf

OldProf, you keep quoting good Scriptures that clearly shows God’s determination for the Salvation of man… there’s never any problem with that (for God so loved the world); your problem is in determining that “Salvation” means that man is unable to reject God (hence Salvation) and that a Believer cannot place him/herself outside of God’s Salvation because God (here’s where your Chineese acrobatics go into play) will render the “sheep”/“elect” devoid of free will.

God does seekout man and offers Salvation (which is Eternal Life) but He will not force His Will upon anyone, including those who Believe… I have attempted to help you see the Truth but you continue to reject Scriptures… quoting your interpretation of Scriptures does not make it so… Jesus’ very selected sheep left Him (I will strike the Shepherd and the sheep will scatter…); Jesus forewarned Kephas about this very incident and He demonstrated that the sheep would reject Him but that He had prayed for Cephas so that once he returned to Him he would gather and strengthen the brethrens!

Salvation: Eternal Life: Eternal.

Man’s will: not always fully surrendered to God; hence, Salvation can be lost because you or I can chose to remove ourselves from the Fold!

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you and show you the Path to Life!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

God has mercy on those He chooses. Remember, God has omniscience, the ultimate “big picture.” Consider Paul’s words:

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

From Romans 9.

Man, in the image of God, the “IMAGO DEI”, is a special and beloved creation of God. He has a plan, and the Fall (Gen 3) was a part of it all.

God chooses some unto salvation, and the others He does not and leaves to their own sinful lifestyle and choices. Jesus died only for the elect. In His high priestly prayer (John 17) before the crucifixion, He says,

6 I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.

And it is the Scriptures “which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (See 2 Tim 3:14-15)

Regards, OldProf

…so… your perspective is that God as Omnipotent and as Ominiscient as He is chooses to not save man… this theology, in essence, makes God a hypocrite and a liar since God claims that He is not a man to change His Mind (Numbers 23:19; Hebrews 7:21) and that He, Yahweh, wants everyone to be Saved (Ezekiel 18:30-32).

…some would argue that God has chosen some, the “elect” to be Saved while abandoning others to damnation… so did St. John not get the memo?:

15 Do not love the world or what is in the world. If anyone does love the world, the love of the Father finds no place in him, 16 because everything there is in the world – disordered bodily desires, disordered desires of the eyes, pride in possession – is not from the Father but is from the world. 17 And the world, with all its disordered desires, is passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains for ever. (1 St. John 2:15-17)

…yes, there’s an election (St. Matthew 24:37-51); but God will not employ some whimsically arbitrary form to do this (vv 46-51)–also revealed to us in St. John 1:9-13 and 3:15-21)… please stop relying on a magical umbrella that will protect and save you… come, join the elect! Surrender to Christ and become part of His Body (1 Corinthians 12:25-28)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not necessarily.

However, this statement is a good indicator of how one’s prior mindset influences how they intepret scripture. The apostles were sent out to preach, and this passage shows how they will remember what to say in their preaching endeavors, because the Holy Spirit will be behind the apostles when teaching the church. The early Christians would have thought of it this way, since they depended on preaching in order to hear the word.

But if one’s mind is scripture instead of preaching oriented, of course that mind will seize upon thinking John’s passage is referring to scripture. And it is, but only secondarily and retroactively.

…not only that but the Promise of the other Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, came about within days of Christ’s Ascension (Pentecost)… if the Apostles were to Write instead of Proclaim Christ’s Gospel (and further Teachings) why were they so slow… even with the Guide and Assistance of the Holy Spirit?

…the Word says… how are they to know God if He is not Preached not if He is not shared in the Written Gospel! (Romans 10:14-15)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So, when Matthew, or Peter, or Paul wrote a letter that got circulated and copied and circulated and copied and (you know) … those letters were not accepted as Scripture? Did you see the 2 Peter 3 quote I provided earlier? Don’t you think it was pretty rare for the early Christians to get an audience with the apostles? And when you think about writing back then - the difficulties and expense - don’t you think what the Apostles and NT writers sent out were concise summaries of what was of utmost importance and doctrinal accuracy? The highest doctrine?

Regards, OldProf

…you continue to twist things… Scriptures did not refer to individual Writings (which were not many and far apart); Scriptures referred to the collective Writings of the Old Testament… you tend to mix the printing press with the internet–though both relate to text one is sporadic and commissioned while the other is prolific and free-flow… to suggest that St. Paul was speaking of his Writings as Scriptures comes head to head with what the context of the passage and it falls apart:

14 You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, 15 and how, ever since you were a child, you have known the holy scriptures -from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and useful for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and teaching them to be upright. 17 This is how someone who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

St. Paul is not suggesting that every Jew had access to his/her own copy of the Sacred Writings and that it was the Christians’ right to have access to both the Old and New Testament Writings… something which would go against the established time line of the most important New Testament Writings:

2 Timothy 67 AD
gotquestions.org/Book-of-2-Timothy.html

Gospels 65 thru 110 AD
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Dating

…so how would Timothy (or whoever the recipient of the Epistle was) know and study the New Testament Writings from his childhood when the Gospels were not even set on paper/scrolls?

However, the Apostles were Guided by the Holy Spirit and the Epistles and Gospels came about… it is to this that St. Peter is making an “ex cathedra” pronouncement that the Apostolic Writings were Inspired by the Holy Spirit and must be held as Sacred Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[adrift]

adrift, thank-you for your response and verse references. Maybe you had some typos in the response, but I was supporting the contention that unbelievers do not have the ability to do anything righteous.

I was rushed sorry about the typos the computer sometimes does not keep up with me

I hope this better explains why I believe the Bible teaches that man is totally incapable of any righteousness, which includes the ability to believe in Jesus without God’s enabling grace.

Sincerely, OldProf
I was totally confused by your answer.

 

[jcrichton]

Nice. And those are verses I really like, too. So you are saying that the natural man is not really “dead” in trespasses and sins, but merely crippled, with the ability to do some righteous acts or thoughts. Is that correct?

Regards, OldProf

twisty… not! sin has no power; hence sin cannot produce life. But God will not save man against his will:

4 Adulterers! Do you not realise that love for the world is hatred for God? Anyone who chooses the world for a friend is constituted an enemy of God. 5 Can you not see the point of the saying in scripture, ‘The longing of the spirit he sent to dwell in us is a jealous longing.’? 6 But he has given us an even greater grace, as scripture says: God opposes the proud but he accords his favour to the humble. 7 Give in to God, then; resist the devil, and he will run away from you. 8 The nearer you go to God, the nearer God will come to you. Clean your hands, you sinners, and clear your minds, you waverers. 9 Appreciate your wretchedness, and weep for it in misery. Your laughter must be turned to grief, your happiness to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will lift you up. (St. James 4:4-10)

Salvation is not for the taking!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

i think im lost, is anyone argueing that man can believe without grace? What are you argueing against.
Ubenedictus

I think he concludes that only the elect are Saved and that all others cannot gain Salvation because it is reserved only for the elect/sheep.

Maran atha!

Angel