(From post #272)
“Systematic Theology” by Dr. Wayne Grudem, 1994, is one of many books that provide a much more complete answer to this and similar verses that indicate endurance or continuance in the faith. Specifically, chapter 40, pp. 788-809, covers the most prominent verses in context and arguments for or against. The Scriptures are clear that we are to examine ourselves to make sure we are “in Christ” and that those “in Christ” will persevere. Here is an outline from Grudem’s book:
Chapter 40 The Perseverance of the Saints (Remaining a Christian)
Can true Christians lose their salvation? How can we know if we are truly born again?
*** A. All Who Are Truly Born Again Will Persevere to the End
B. Only Those Who Persevere to the End Have Been Truly Born Again
C. Those Who Finally Fall Away May Give Many External Signs of Conversion
D. What Can Give a Believer Genuine Assurance?***
The whole biblical picture is the strength of systematic theology, and people like myself, engineers, scientists, and the like, are drawn to the idea that God speaks through the Scriptures. He is glorified in truth, and He is capable of providing truth to His elect who are limited with finite minds. Due diligence is absolutely required on our parts so we can know Him and discern false teaching or false theology. It is a good work to study the Scriptures daily, and the Bereans were especially applauded for that (Acts 17:11).
This was a post that I particularly was interested in.
As a side-note, there is no theology more systematic than Catholic theology, beginning with the early councils forward.
Dr. Wayne Grudem whether deliberately or inadvertantly here actually makes the Catholic point quite well. His question number D above is the really pertinent one, is it not?
If you look at A and B you come to the conclusion that at the end of a person’s life, after perservering to the end, as we Catholics persist in saying, if that person dies in the state of grace, they will be saved.
We can heartily agree with C. Yes indeed, there are some, perhaps many, who show outward signs, yet in the end fall away.
So then, what you are really trying to establish in A and B becomes irrelevant, does it not? The idea of the one-time conversion experience, called in the Evangelical context “being born again” (we would define that as baptism) is what is being defended here. OSAS is actually an extension of that.
But if we examine that conversion experience closely, we find it to be poorly defined because it is internal in nature and highly subjective. In some respects it can become heavily dependent upon feelings. So then it is no comfort to say that someone who declared they had experienced “being saved” but then slid back into their former ways, was not actually “saved” in the first place and was not one of the elect. And vice-versa as Grudem says in A and B.
Ultimately, his question in D must gnaw at the thinking adherent to OSAS. Until you have lived your life to its end, you cannot really know which category you fall into, can you? You may think that your conversion experience is real, but on your own theology you cannot have that absolute assurance that you so desire because if it is internal to you, there is no way to have an objective reference in someone else. You only have what they represent to you in their words and their lives. If in fact they are one of those that perservere to the end, you will not know that until they do so, and then they are dead so you cannot be absolutely certain that they were not a fake all the way through. Reasonable certainty, yes, but not absolute assurance. And to reassure yourself and your own experience through their representation to you of theirs then still falls short of the absolute assurance you seek. Because in the back of your mind there is always C and the possibility that you belong to that category and have deceived yourself into thinking you are one of the elect.
So your own experience then is not certain, if only in the context of internal experience, for you have no point of actual reference. You have taken the objective assurance that Christ gave us in Scripture of *his own constancy toward us *and internalized it so that there is no objective way to prove it to anyone, even to yourself. So there goes the assurance.
And the Catholic stands by talking, as St. Paul does, about
hope (faith, hope, love) which makes the OSAS adherent even more uneasy. All of the Scriptures that you have quoted, OldProf, give us assurance, absolute assurance, that Christ will fulfill his promises. We can depend on him, absolutely, Amen. And for someone who has fallen away, is deep in guilt, and despairs of their own soul, that assurance is critical. If someone comes to Christ in true repentance, he will always forgive them. That is what the Catholic Church has taught since Pentecost. It matters not if you have never been “saved” before, or have been down the aisle to an “altar call” seven times in an Evangelical meeting, or seventy times seven for that matter, if someone examines their heart and finds the guilt of sin, Christ is right there ready to forgive them if they repent, confess and ask for that forgiveness.
It is no more complex than that, and I thank and praise God for it, because without that assurance of his love, forgiveness and mercy, I myself would have no hope.
