Assurance of Salvation

[teeboy]

=============================================

I like the thought and the intention, but your Latin bothers me a bit.

Re: Ablative case of ‘Res’. The ‘thing’ under consideration or pertaining to that ‘thing’. Not used to indicate ‘once again’.
Con: Prefix derived from Contra - Against. Can occasionnaly be used as a prefix to indicate ‘with’ but the term ‘with’ is most usually rendered as ‘cum’.
Cilia: Does refer to the root word for eyelash but most normally used in a medical or biological sense to refer to thin whiplike appendages extending from certain cells.
The Latin noun ‘concilium’ - meeting at which both pros and cons of a ‘thing’ (agenda item)are considered is most likely the appropriate word to use.

I believe ‘reconcile’ is derived from middle-French to mean to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution to an issue in dispute.

AMDG

When was the microscope invented?

The word came from OF through Latin.

Eye to eye.

 

[teeboy]

In the Church, reconciliation is related to Communion. Born again means to be back in communion. It is a lifelong process.

King David was annointed. He later sinned. He repented to come back in communion. Communion with Yahweh. Not Jesus.

It is eye to eye in NT. Unless one has a unique contrite relation with our Lord.

 

[jcrichton]

i think osas is a good example of circular reason. Well everybody said the sinners prayer and the pastor say they have been saved, if 10yrs later someone who was proclaim save become an atheist everybody will say ‘well he was really saved in the first place’. So we end up with a doctrine that says, ‘‘once saved, if really really saved, alway saved’’ osirrsas.
Ubenedictus

…yeah… that’s more like a “wait 'n see” theology… but even if we were to rely on that premise there’s a whole lot that could and can go wrong since we cannot know the mind and heart of man and man, as Lucifer, can disguise himself as an angel of light! …this is why Jesus warned: “…not all who call me Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (God)!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I am sure that, over the past 495 years, every eventuality regarding OSAS has been finessed into an almost plausible doctrine. Yet, OSAS seems to infer that unwilling souls will go to heaven. Can you imagine that? Someone who, because of what happens after their salvation, decides to reject God, turns from Him and leads a life of dissipation, will be forced into heaven?

And, if there is OSAS, why isn’t there OLAL? I mean, if God created some simply to destroy them in hell, there most certainly are some who fall into this category. I though our Lord said those who call on His name will be saved? Not so, if you are Once Lost Always Lost. You truly have no hope.

As well, if some of us are lost and can do nothing about it, while others are saved and can do nothing about it, why does it matter if we believe Jean Calvin’s doctrine? I mean, we’re either saved or lost anyway, right?

I think we need a wall chart to know if we’re saved or not. But, how can we know, since we have to actually get into heaven before we are actually saved.

And the weirdest thing of all is that God kept this a secret for 1,500 years.

…ah… but there’s the rub… those “Saved” somehow have special “knowledge” that is granted to them directly from God Himself (Jehovah Witnesses believe such theology)… it’s that theology that claims that God, Who is not a respecter of man, holds some more equal than others and nothing they do or do not do voids their higher status…

…Jesus must have had it all wrong when He Commanded His Disciples to go preach to all nation, Baptizing them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit… didn’t He get the memo? :slapfight:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I have a strong rebuttal to this, but I’m wondering. Is it Roman Catholic doctrine that Judas was a believer, a sheep of Jesus (John 10), a sheep with eternal life, a sheep that will never at this time or at any future time perish (John 10:28 word study on “never”), and then Judas betrays Jesus, dies, and goes to hell (he perishes)?

Regards, OldProf

It is Catholic Doctrine that God determines who is Damned and who is not, not man!

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus; he never understood who Jesus was till the very end of his existence… the Church does not Teach that we know where Judas ends up since that would be usurping God’s Omnipotence and Omniscience!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

“The Lord knows those who are His, and let him who claims the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

I think that’s the bottom line, whatever side of the debate you find yourself on.

Actually, you have set the argument aflame since 2 Timothy 2:19 demonstrates that there is a change from sin (unrighteousness) to abiding in Christ (righteousness)–anyone arguing that Salvation is predetermined (a given) for some while unattainable (not possible) for the rest argues against this passage and every passage of Scriptures that states differently… or did Christ come to recue the “Saved” and Damn the “not Saved?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[TEPO]

Actually, you have set the argument aflame since 2 Timothy 2:19 demonstrates that there is a change from sin (unrighteousness) to abiding in Christ (righteousness)–anyone arguing that Salvation is predetermined (a given) for some while unattainable (not possible) for the rest argues against this passage and every passage of Scriptures that states differently… or did Christ come to recue the “Saved” and Damn the “not Saved?”

Maran atha!

Angel

Actually, I think everybody is predestined to attain salvation, that is unless their free will leads them astray.

…But nobody has been predetermined by God for anything, rather it is Gods grace that is predetermined by Him that He may offer it to us.

 

[TEPO]

I have a strong rebuttal to this, but I’m wondering. Is it Roman Catholic doctrine that Judas was a believer, a sheep of Jesus (John 10), a sheep with eternal life, a sheep that will never at this time or at any future time perish (John 10:28 word study on “never”), and then Judas betrays Jesus, dies, and goes to hell (he perishes)?

Regards, OldProf

Judas was born a child of God and was Baptized. He was predestined for eternal salvation, but through his free will, he “allowed” himself to be influenced away from salvation, just like so many other Christians do.

 

[lulu88]

It is Catholic Doctrine that God determines who is Damned and who is not, not man!

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus; he never understood who Jesus was till the very end of his existence… the Church does not Teach that we know where Judas ends up since that would be usurping God’s Omnipotence and Omniscience!

Maran atha!

Angel

**I just wanted to add, there are many Protestant sects that profess keeping the ten commandments and do belive they can fall from grace. As a former Lutheran, we were taught faith saves, however faith was also an action towards and for Christ. Church, communion and commandment keeping were included with this faith.

Lulu**

**The OSAS sect have a non-gospel, non-scriptural man-made doctrine on Faith. Its not the teachings of Christ himself, and I say this kindly.

Lulu**

 

[jcrichton]

Actually, I think everybody is predestined to attain salvation, that is unless their free will leads them astray.

…But nobody has been predetermined by God for anything, rather it is Gods grace that is predetermined by Him that He may offer it to us.

I must concur with you since it is Yahweh God’s Will that all be Saved… hence the Eternal Salvation and the Election of those who will be Saved… however, as you noted, it is man’s determination to chose death (Ezekiel 18:30-32; Deuteronomy 30:19); however, many are engaged in a theology (I call it the feel-good theo) where they are granted Salvation in spite of anything and everything they choose to do or not do… while, simultaneously, denying Salvation to those who do not prescribe to their faith-base–regardless of what they do or abstain from doing!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

**I just wanted to add, there are many Protestant sects that profess keeping the ten commandments and do belive they can fall from grace. As a former Lutheran, we were taught faith saves, however faith was also an action towards and for Christ. Church, communion and commandment keeping were included with this faith.

Lulu**

**The OSAS sect have a non-gospel, non-scriptural man-made doctrine on Faith. Its not the teachings of Christ himself, and I say this kindly.

Lulu**

…it is this hardness of heart that keeps people from listening to the Holy Spirit… Jesus forewarned that there will be those who will, in His Name, perform all sorts of wondrous signs and their convictions will seem quite genuine… but they err since their faith is superficial… based on man and not on the Son of Man! …at the end He will check them and reject them: “…get away from Me evil doers…”

We cannot reap the benefit of being part of the Body when we reject Christ’s Commandments!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

Judas was born a child of God and was Baptized. He was predestined for eternal salvation, but through his free will, he “allowed” himself to be influenced away from salvation, just like so many other Christians do.

If Judas was double pre-destined to eternal damnation, then how or why did our Lord give him power over demons? Would that not be a house divided against itself? And, if that house were divided against itself, it would not stand, right? Well, if it did not stand, then how can some be cast into the lake of eternal fire?

Steely Dan wrote a song about OSAS: Pretzel Logic.

 

[TEPO]

I must concur with you since it is Yahweh God’s Will that all be Saved… hence the Eternal Salvation and the Election of those who will be Saved… however, as you noted, it is man’s determination to chose death (Ezekiel 18:30-32; Deuteronomy 30:19); however, many are engaged in a theology (I call it the feel-good theo) where they are granted Salvation in spite of anything and everything they choose to do or not do… while, simultaneously, denying Salvation to those who do not prescribe to their faith-base–regardless of what they do or abstain from doing!

Maran atha!

Angel

Exactly… We believe that man was created solely for the purpose of manifesting Gods glory. None of us were created by God for the purpose of manifesting evil, even though we do. I believe this to be the official Church position, as in the teachings of “Divine Providence”.

 

[TEPO]

If Judas was double pre-destined to eternal damnation, then how or why did our Lord give him power over demons? Would that not be a house divided against itself? And, if that house were divided against itself, it would not stand, right? Well, if it did not stand, then how can some be cast into the lake of eternal fire?

Steely Dan wrote a song about OSAS: Pretzel Logic.

Right. Surely God didn’t create Judas solely for the purpose of serving the Devil, and then Baptize him with the Holy Spirit. Then he is given the authority to baptize others and cast out demons…? It just doesn’t make any sense…

Judas clearly chose to allow himself to be influenced by sin.

 

[po18guy]

Right. Surely God didn’t create Judas solely for the purpose of serving the Devil, and then Baptize him with the Holy Spirit. Then he is given the authority to baptize others and cast out demons…? It just doesn’t make any sense…

Judas clearly chose to allow himself to be influenced by sin.

But, simply reject the Church that Jesus founded for our salvation, or declare that the gates of hell actually did prevail, then OSAS might make sense.

 

[TEPO]

But, simply reject the Church that Jesus founded for our salvation, or declare that the gates of hell actually did prevail, then OSAS might make sense.

… Yeah, I think anyone could reshape Catholic theology to make it into some other “easier” version to follow… But only a fool would do it.

 

[OldProf]

I am sure that, over the past 495 years, every eventuality regarding OSAS has been finessed into an almost plausible doctrine. Yet, OSAS seems to infer that unwilling souls will go to heaven. Can you imagine that? Someone who, because of what happens after their salvation, decides to reject God, turns from Him and leads a life of dissipation, will be forced into heaven?

And, if there is OSAS, why isn’t there OLAL? I mean, if God created some simply to destroy them in hell, there most certainly are some who fall into this category. I though our Lord said those who call on His name will be saved? Not so, if you are Once Lost Always Lost. You truly have no hope.

As well, if some of us are lost and can do nothing about it, while others are saved and can do nothing about it, why does it matter if we believe Jean Calvin’s doctrine? I mean, we’re either saved or lost anyway, right?

I think we need a wall chart to know if we’re saved or not. But, how can we know, since we have to actually get into heaven before we are actually saved.

And the weirdest thing of all is that God kept this a secret for 1,500 years.

Well, I’ve been finishing some deadlines and Virginia got hit by a bad wind storm. Power has been out at my house since Friday, 29 June. Hopefully they will get it fixed soon. I came back to work this evening to begin a response to some of the posts I’ve seen and let you all know I’m still around.

I should begin to respond to the challenge that OSAS (or “eternal security” or, as reformed theologians say, “the perseverance of the saints”) is only a 495 year old doctrine. Actually, it does have a history and did not originate only at the reformation. From my view it is, of course, a biblical doctrine, as my posts have shown. By the way, this has been documented and is easy enough to find. Two books by a reformed Baptist scholar, Dr. Steven J. Lawson, are called “Foundations of Grace” in 2006 (shows the biblical witness of “grace”), and “Pillars of Grace” in 2011 (shows the early commentaries from 100 AD to 1564 (John Calvin)). These are not short books. Now, so you understand, the concept of “grace” or “the doctrines of grace” have to do with 6 points.

1. The Sovereignty of God
2. Radical Depravity of Man
3. Sovereign Election
4. Definite Atonement
5. Irresistible Call
6. Preserving Grace (the OSAS we’ve discussed)

Some have heard of “TULIP” (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints) as another statement of the Grace of God.

So, I will provide an argument from the 6th point above and I think I’ll just go backwards from 1500 AD. Please stay tuned.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[adrift]

I have a strong rebuttal to this, but I’m wondering. Is it Roman Catholic doctrine that Judas was a believer, a sheep of Jesus (John 10), a sheep with eternal life, a sheep that will never at this time or at any future time perish (John 10:28 word study on “never”), and then Judas betrays Jesus, dies, and goes to hell (he perishes)?

Regards, OldProf

I have been hoping that you would post your strong rebuttal. I know that is is very hard for you to do so with the circumstances in your life. Judas was part of the 12 that Jesus chose. You have a different belief so it is hard to give an answer since we aren’t on the same page so to speak You believe that once saved you can do nothing that would not save you. We believe that you aren’t saved until the race is ran. Is Judas saved? We do not know that he was or he wasn’t. We aren’t the judges. If we are to be judged, and scripture says we will be, why would we be judged if we were already saved?

What was the parable of the lost sheep if not about a sinner who was not saved?

 

[lulu88]

I have been hoping that you would post your strong rebuttal. I know that is is very hard for you to do so with the circumstances in your life. Judas was part of the 12 that Jesus chose. You have a different belief so it is hard to give an answer since we aren’t on the same page so to speak You believe that once saved you can do nothing that would not save you. We believe that you aren’t saved until the race is ran. Is Judas saved? We do not know that he was or he wasn’t. We aren’t the judges. If we are to be judged, and scripture says we will be, why would we be judged if we were already saved?

What was the parable of the lost sheep if not about a sinner who was not saved?

**well said, bravo.

lulu**

 

[OldProf]

I have been hoping that you would post your strong rebuttal. I know that is is very hard for you to do so with the circumstances in your life. Judas was part of the 12 that Jesus chose. You have a different belief so it is hard to give an answer since we aren’t on the same page so to speak You believe that once saved you can do nothing that would not save you. We believe that you aren’t saved until the race is ran. Is Judas saved? We do not know that he was or he wasn’t. We aren’t the judges. If we are to be judged, and scripture says we will be, why would we be judged if we were already saved?

What was the parable of the lost sheep if not about a sinner who was not saved?

I’m at work, but a quick comment about Judas.

John 6:70, John 17:12, and Acts 1:20 are some verses germane to the Judas discussion (and many more are also available). Jesus, specifically speaking about Judas in Mark 14:21 (ESV), said in part, “but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” (Also to continue the context, Mark 14:43-45 to follow - very important verses to ponder when thinking about the future of Judas.) Jesus does not lie, and He indicates in Matthew 7 (verses 13-14 and 21-23) that the majority of people IN GENERAL will NOT go to heaven. Given that, do you REALLY think Judas will be there?

Based on the testimony of Jesus Christ, we can logically conclude, sadly, that Judas will spend eternity in hell. When I first became a Christian, an Air Force Chaplain told me that when a Christian talks about hell, they should have a tear in their eye. I have to agree. Hell is not a joking matter and should energize the Christian to share the gospel. We should all, “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 1:3), to point sinners to the true Savior, Jesus Christ.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Regards, OldProf