Assurance of Salvation

[Matt16_18]

Tiffany:

I put a question to you. Say someone perhaps a young boy around the age of 10 has excepted Christ as his personal savior and then say he lies (which is a sin) to his mother about maybe that he didn’t stick his tounge out at his sister when he really did and then he dies later that day in a car accident with an unrepentant heart about what he did. Are you saying than that he would go to hell?

Only God can judge the human heart, of course, but I would say that most reasonable people would not give the death penalty to a child that told such a lie. Can mere humans have a better sense of justice than God? Of course we can’t, and that is why I can’t imagine that God would condemn a child to eternity in Hell for such a lie.

Obviously we humans know that not all sins are equal. A child that has sasses his mom is wrong, but normal people would never look at that as being as wrong as a man that worships Satan and offers up children as human sacrifices to the devil. Many Baptists seem to have lost all sense of proportion in terms of the degree of serious of offenses against God. I have had fundamentalists tell me that God sees all sins the same, which is certainly not scriptural, and does violence to our innate sense of justice. The scriptures tell us that all sins are not the same - there are sins that are mortal and sins that are not mortal.There is sin which is mortal … there is sin which is not mortal.
1John 5:16-17It is possible to die unrepentant for sins that are not mortal and still be saved.

 

[uniChristian]

uniChristian, it’s obvious that you are the only authority that you’ll accept. :bowdown: salaam. You have concocted your own religion which you, of course, deem to be the absolute truth and infallible, as others have before you and will continue to do in the future. The Church founded by Christ calls this practice ‘heresy.’

The correct name is “Catholic Church,” or simply “the Church.” Roman Catholic refers to a specific Rite (or Church) within the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Byzantine, Maronite, and other Eastern, non-Latin Rite Catholics are offended to be called “Roman.”

Yes, this discussion is inappropriate on this thread. Start another one if you wish. Or, go to my thread “What Bible? Which canon?” in the apologetics forum. Answer the questions I and others have raised there. And answer the questions I just posted here.

Elaine Pagels is a Gnostic sympathizer.

You wrote: “You have forgotten one of the conditions for debate, Christianity is a Jewish faith and not of Roman origin.”

Do you mean that it’s source is not in the Roman Empire? Or that it did not originate in Rome? It originated in Jerusalem. Sts. Peter and Paul founded the Christian community in Rome, and Peter, the Chief Apostle, was the first Bishop of Rome. Christianity is an outgrowth and completion of Judaism. It is “a Jewish faith” in that it’s founder, Jesus Christ, is the Messiah, long awaited in Judaism, and was himself a Jew. It is not “a Jewish faith” in that the Mosaic law does not apply to Christians. Christ’s Apostles and many of the early Christians were Jews. This is common knowledge. What’s your point?

Anything you write yourself, of your own knowledge, needs no attribution. But when you quote from others, or cut and paste, you need to identify your source.

You wrote: “The real bible reads from right to left and this is the one I will follow.” Most of the world, then, reads a false Bible, since very few languages read from right to left. Again, salaam.:bowdown2:

Your posts are hard to read and answer. Please bold or italicize only the words or paragraphs you wish to emphasize, and don’t use giant print. Paragraphing would help. Thank you.

JMJ Jay

It has become obvious to me that you are now lashing out and I won’t debate you any further, sorry to have upset you, I was hoping for a better debate. I listed all sources that were not from my knowledge, and you were wrong about the Prophesy in Numbers also. Remember that little thing about the serpent being raised up? That was an epiphany to Christ, but how would you know that you don’t even know Jewish bibles read from left to right. Shalom.

 

[uniChristian]

uniChristian:

Katholikos:
It has become obvious to me that you are now lashing out and I won’t debate you any further, sorry to have upset you, I was hoping for a better debate. I listed all sources that were not from my knowledge, and you were wrong about the Prophesy in Numbers also. Remember that little thing about the serpent being raised up? That was an epiphany to Christ, but how would you know that you don’t even know Jewish bibles read from left to right. Shalom. P.S.Your arrogance is real Christ like you will win many souls to the Catholic faith.

 

[mayra_hart]

Why do Catholics try to earn their own salvation, despite the fact that salvation can only come as a free gift from Jesus Christ?

Catholics fully recognize that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their sins and thus “opened the gates of Heaven,” and that salvation is a free gift which no amount of human good deeds could ever earn. Catholics receive Christ’s saving and sanctifying grace, and Christ Himself, into their souls when they are baptized. Yet they also know that Christ has established certain conditions for entry into eternal happiness in Heaven – for example, receiving His true Flesh and Blood (*John 6:54) and keeping the commandments (Matt. 19:17). If a Christian refuses or neglects to obey Our Lord’s commands in a grave matter (that is, if he commits a mortal sin), Our Lord will not remain dwelling in his soul; and if a Christian dies in that state, having driven his Lord from his soul by serious sin, he will not be saved. As St. Paul warned the Galatians with regard to certain sins: “They who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:21). It must be added that Christ will always forgive and return to a sinner who approaches Him with sincerity in the Sacrament of Penance.

Catholics follow St. Paul, who did not think that his salvation was guaranteed once and for all at the moment he first received Christ into his soul; for he wrote: “I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (I Cor. 9:27). Also: “With fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you…” (Phil. 2:12-13). “And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required.” (Luke 12:48)*. “He that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.” (Matt. 10:22). Nevertheless, Catholics realize that even the fulfilling of Our Lord’s requirements for salvation is impossible without the free gift of His grace

 

[Katholikos]

uniChristian:

It has become obvious to me that you are now lashing out and I won’t debate you any further, sorry to have upset you, I was hoping for a better debate. I listed all sources that were not from my knowledge, and you were wrong about the Prophesy in Numbers also. Remember that little thing about the serpent being raised up? That was an epiphany to Christ, but how would you know that you don’t even know Jewish bibles read from left to right. Shalom.

You have misinterpreted my words. I do know how Hebrew is read. I can’t read Hebrew, but I took Old Testament History at the university from a venerable old rabbi, and he made sure the whole class knew. And I have been to synagogue.

I assure you, I am not upset. I knew you wouldn’t really debate when I read your conditions. Anyone who debates you has to agree – as a prior condition – that the Catholic Church has no right to set the OT canon for Christians, but you believe you have the authority to determine your own canon, which is absurd. The Apostles determined the Jewish books that were “Scripture” and provided them to the Church – the Church, acting for Christ and by His authority and in His name, canonized them. But Jesus and the Apostles selected them.

If I asked you how many people belong to your particular religion, the answer would be one. That accounts for your screen name. Perhaps you’re triyng to make that ***two. ***

Peace to you and to all who post at Catholic Answers, Jay

 

[uniChristian]

Katholikos:

You have misinterpreted my words. I do know how Hebrew is read. I can’t read Hebrew, but I took Old Testament History at the university from a venerable old rabbi, and he made sure the whole class knew. And I have been to synagogue. Then why did you write "Most of the world, then, reads a false Bible, since very few languages read from right to left. Again, salaam"

I assure you, I am not upset. I knew you wouldn’t really debate when I read your conditions. Anyone who debates you has to agree – as a prior condition – that the Catholic Church has no right to set the OT canon for Christians,The Catholic church has no right to set the Old Covenant Canon, It was not a covenant for Christians when it was written. It has become a covenat for Christians because the Jews rejected it.Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
but you believe you have the authority to determine your own canon, which is absurd. The Apostles determined the Jewish books that were “Scripture” and provided them to the Church – the Church, acting for Christ and by His authority and in His name, canonized them. **This debate was in regard to the Apocrypha was it not? Some one has put it in the Old Covenant and it does not belong there according to Jewish scholars and historians of the period, yet you accuse me of starting my own religion of one? Go back to the Rabbi at the university and ask him to Tudor you on the content of the Old Covenant as I think you may have missed that class, Providing the teacher was as you say a “Rabbi”. **
But Jesus and the Apostles selected them.

If I asked you how many people belong to your particular religion, the answer would be one. That accounts for your screen name. Perhaps you’re triyng to make that ***two. ***
***Katholikos I am a Messianic believer and I think you are as well. When you say that my screen name accounts for the number of people in my religion you again show your arrogance. I have a faith in Yeshua which guarantees my salvation. This faith is separate from any congregation I attend, are you able to say the same? Do you have salvation away from the Roman Catholic Church? I think you were being facetious when you said “If I asked you how many people belong to your particular religion, the answer would be one. That accounts for your screen name. Perhaps you’re triyng to make that two”. By the way I believe in your English language, of which you profess to be a master of by insulting my abilities, the word trying as you wrote is not spelled with an i. Which university did you attend? ***

Peace to you and to all who post at Catholic Answers, Jay

 

[Gunner]

MariaG:

Gunner,

This is from CA here parts in bold are by me: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

These have an *IMPRIMATUR. *There is a difference between arrogantly proclaiming your salvation until the end of time no matter what you do and walking with confidence . I hope you are not saying we cannot have confidence of our salvation?

God Bless,
Maria

Maria

We can have hope but not confidence, confidence is too close to presumption. The key is to ensure we genuinely stay in Grace and do not delude ourselves and therefore forget to confess big sins such as idolotary (Pleasure, comfort, independence), gluttony, lust, spiritual sloath.

Unless we carry our crosses “daily” for Christ, it is a hard job to be confident we will walk with him in the next life. Looking for the confidence of salvation is potentially going to lead us away from an abhorrance of sin and the necessary repentance to ensure our salvation.

“The Lord shows mercy to those who fear him” - Luke 1.

 

[uniChristian]

Gunner:

Maria

We can have hope but not confidence, confidence is too close to presumption. This is contrary to the Word of God. Read this 1John5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach what is written in the Word of God, according to this scripture we can have confidence we are to live with Christ eternally.

 

[Gunner]

uniChristian:

Gunner:

Maria

We can have hope but not confidence, confidence is too close to presumption. This is contrary to the Word of God. Read this 1John5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to

believe in the name of the Son of God. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach what is written in the Word of God, according to this scripture we can have confidence we are to live with Christ eternally.
We are dealing in semantics here, Hope is all we will ever have, this is the knowing that if we persevere we may gain eternal salvation. This once saved always saved notion was made up by non-Catholics post 1517 and never believed in the early Church.

 

[uniChristian]

Gunner:

We are dealing in semantics here, Hope is all we will ever have, this is the knowing that if we persevere we may gain eternal salvation. This once saved always saved notion was made up by non-Catholics post 1517 and never believed in the early Church.

Jesus said if we have faith we could move mountains, If we have faith it is no longer just hope. We have the evidence of Jesus living within us by way of a renewed mind and this is a very real thing. So again I say it is no longer a hope once we have become a born a gain believer, it is a fact that emboldens us. Jesus is real and not just a hope, he did exactly what the prophets said he would do. I don’t know if once saved always saved is real or not but I know this for sure, Jesus is God and he is coming again in glory to bring us home. I pray you are a born again believer.

 

[RBushlow]

Tiffany:

I want to refine my beliefs and make them as true to the Bible as humanly possible. I know with translations, sometimes it is hard to get a true understanding of what God was saying but I find that if I go back to the Greek and Hebrew I am able to see what God means. My mission is to seek out the truth and find God’s will for my life and I know studing his word is all part of that.

How about this one:
I discipline my body, and bring it into subjection: lest having preached to others, I myself should be lost. 1 Corinthians 9:27

May the peace of God, the love of Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[RBushlow]

uniChristian:

The earliest Church is a Jewish Church and its scriptures are written in Hebrew.

Here is some information in the Isrealite origins of the Church:
secondexodus.com/html/sitedesign/israeliteheritage.htm

And here is some more information on the formation of the Bible:
holytrinitymission.org/books/english/bible_books_old_1.htm
holytrinitymission.org/books/english/bible_books_new_1.htm

Let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord.

 

[pendoko]

Let me see if I’ve gotten this right: The Catholic Church was established by Christ, but it was only temporary? The Catholic Church, despite a massive paper trail to the contrary “never knew about salvation?” It seems more likely to you that a bunch of European malcontent revolutionaries rejecting what had been taught for a millenium and a half were the only ones to “get it?”
PENDOKO: Yes, the Catholics Church never knew about salvation and why Jesus had died on the cross. Okay, I will ask you a question: Are you really sure that you will be going to Heaven after you die? Can you assure of yourself? And how do you asure yourself about salvation?

*Your answer will determine if you are really sure of what you believe and will stand for it till death. *

I’m sure, on some level, you’re very sincere. My more charitable brothers and sisters here would take me to the woodshed if I expressed my true opinions about your scholarship, but suffice it to say you are way off the mark if you think Scripture is contrary to Tradition or somehow superior to it. (Is Jesus superior to God, or vice/versa?) You, in your infinite wisdom, have made an infallible determination that the Church founded by Christ fell, despite Christ’s promise that the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against it.
PENDOKO: You don’t really understand. Jesus had come into this earth for almost 2000 years ago. God knew that we should trust the writings (BIBLE) than the verbal teachings of any Churches because the writing/scriptures are the ONLY ONE SOLID proof of God’s existence and teaching apart from the Universe. Our generation is diferent from the time of Roman Empire times.

---

I really shouldn’t check these forums before I’ve had my coffee, or if I haven’t had a good night’s sleep. Reading condescending pontifications of people uninformed about Catholic doctrine–or just general history–makes me want to retch.

 

[pendoko]

Hi pendoko!

What about love? What about people who believe in God but don’t love Him with all their heart, soul, strength and mind or their neighbor as themselves? I know people who “just believe”, nothing else. The “just believe” idea flies in the face of the rest of scripture especially the passages that speak of love being greater than faith and the only thing that matters is faith working through love. Just like scripture never says “faith alone” it never says “just believe”. Is faith necessary? Yep. But not faith alone. Faith + Love! Is belief necessary? Yep. But not just belief. Belief + Love!

In Christ,
Nancy

In Christ,
Nancy

Hi Nancy!

A person who believe in God is a person who loves God. Faith and love is inseparable.

Those people who said, “Well, I knew that there is God but I don’t love Him.” are those persons who never put themselves into submission to God. In short, they don’t ask God to be their Father and they are not God’s children. So? They are Lucifer’s children.

Once a person really believe God and receive God as His Savior, Lord, and God, then, that person was ALREADY, automatically God’s child John 1:12 and therefore both faith and love and etc (Gal 5:22) is already on that person.

 

[pendoko]

Pendoko,

You wrote: “And it is God’s plan that all humans should go to Heaven by JUST BELIEVING Him. !”

Then why does Jesus separate the nations, the “sheep from the goats” (Matt 25:31-46), by their actions (feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, welcoming strangers, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, visiting prisoners) and not only by their faith? Why does Jesus say (Luke 6: 46-47), “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’, and not DO what I tell you? Every one who comes to me and hears my words AND DOES them, I will show you what he is like…” (emphasis mine). Also, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we are not told a thing about the rich man’s faith or lack of it—we are told that he did nothing about poor Lazarus starving at his door. We are given the example of someone who didn’t do what he should have done—real, physical acts of mercy—not the example of someone who did or did not believe. Faith without works is dead. And it’s not either/or.
PENDOKO: *You need to understand that a child of God does better things than the above posts that you had posted. The “sheeps” are the “children” of God who did John 1:12. *

Remember a child of God does the folowing: (feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, welcoming strangers, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, visiting prisoners) from his/her heart because he/she is saved forever and he/she loves God’s creation!

BUT FIRST, you need to do John 1:12 to become God’s child! or everything that your good works are only considered waste. For example, if Mother Theresa (if she was really the Mother) did John 1:12, then, she died and went to Heaven. BUT if she did not do John 1:12, then, she died and went to Hell! You may say, why?She did the great job of doing such good things??? No, she did not. She forgot to register to Heaven by doing John 1:12! This is the GOOD thing that we should do FIRST before doing anything for God’s name! Be God’s child’s first!

Also, Pendoko, you haven’t answered my question about my friend’s ex-husband. I’ll ask again: my friend’s ex was not Catholic. He believed, like you, in “once saved, always saved”. He believed that one could have absolute assurance of salvation (meaning, beyond the “moral assurance” that Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants believe in), and that he had it. He was saved, for sure. However, it is clear that he has since walked away from his faith (no one took him from it, he left it by his own choice). So, was he not wrong when he believed that he was a child of God (as per your definition)? Obviously, then, a person might think that they are, but be mistaken. How can you know for sure? He was sure at one time in his life, but he was wrong. How do you account for that?
PENDOKO: Have you ever forgotten Judas Iscariot? He even healed in the name of the Lord! I mean, the real child of God is the real of God…it will remain forever until his/her death. Your friend’s ex-husband was like Judas, he copied and mannerized the Christian’s teaching and leave. Anybody can do that! Of course, anybody could proclaimed that they are the real children of God and after that they leave the God! The real child of God never do that…never…never…! Why? Because God is existing!

 

[MariaG]

Hi Gunner:wave:

From CA catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin.

As I stated above, one can be confident of one’s salvation. It may be about my current state of Grace, but it is confidence.

Confidence of salvation =/= once saved always saved

They are two different things. I am confident in my salvation, but that is not arrogant at all. Nor does it mean that I am not working out my salvation with fear and trembling. And at least one Bishop agrees with this as he granted an *IMPRIMATUR to CA to say one may have confidence in their salvation. *Take it up with our host and the Bishop if you disagree.

God Bless,
Your sister in Christ who is walking confidently in God’s Grace,
Maria

 

[StubbleSpark]

Dan Blake:

Yes, and I know Catholics who grant JP2 no special authority, support abortion, and believe any communion service (Catholic or Protestant) to be equally valid. Citing anecdotal accounts from encounters with individual members of a church is no way to establish what that chuch teaches. That every church has heretical members should be an accepted fact.

But the difference being that Catholics can say to the heretics “You are wrong in a way that makes you not Catholic!” and then very clearly point out why. In Protestant circles, you can only talk at each other, citing proof texts to support your conflicting ideas.

Also, though you are responding to an anecdotal incident, that is what many Baptists teach. Once saved always saved – even if you become a Ba’hai and die believing Jesus was just some mortal prophet and not the Christ, you still are guaranteed salvation.

It should not shock you that there are entire swaths of Protestant churches whose understanding of Scripture vary so much from your own that you cannot but recoil at how illogical they are. The concept of faith alone is so flexible that for some, that can mean virtually no faith at all. So long as you once had the faith for a time in the past. This is why Catholics are always pointing to the thousands of Protestant churches and saying “Where is your unity?”

Some Protestants will answer that Christ meant for His Church to be so diverse and that the real Church is the warm fuzzy encompassing all of Christendom.

The problem with this idea is that many other less sentimental Protestants refute that interpretation and stick to their mutually exclusive churches.

How can His Church contain both mutually inclusive and mutually exclusive branches? Both views cannot possibly be true because they are opposites.

If even Satan understands that a “house divided cannot stand,” then what about the House of God? It is clear from the teachings of God Himself that the only house that can stand is the one that stands united.

All others will fall.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

StubbleSpark:

Also, though you are responding to an anecdotal incident, that is what many Baptists teach. Once saved always saved – even if you become a Ba’hai and die believing Jesus was just some mortal prophet and not the Christ, you still are guaranteed salvation.

.

I think the OSAS Christian would say that this person was never really saved to begin with.

I’ve read stories about people who were OSAS Christians, truly believing that they had “accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior” but then had a crisis of faith and fell away from Christ. Upon returning to Christ they questioned whether or not they were really saved this time. After all, if they were really saved last time they wouldn’t have fallen away, according to OSAS theology. They thought they were saved last time but were wrong. How then, can they have any assurance of salvation this time?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Matt16_18]

Catholic4aReasn:

I think the OSAS Christian would say that this person was never really saved to begin with.

“He was never really saved to begin with”, is a hedge that is used by those (like Pendoko) who believe in hyper-Calvinist OSAS.

There are basically two flavors of OSAS, the hyper-Calvinist flavor, and the antinomian flavor.

The antinomian flavor of OSAS (e.g. Southern Baptists) teaches that once a man is “saved”, that there is no sin that he could possibly commit that would make him lose his salvation. Being “saved” frees one from having to obey ANY law, even the moral law (e.g. the Ten Commandments, the two great commandments of love, etc.). A “saved” man could die as a backslid unrepentant Satan worshipper that hates God and still enter heaven after his death.

A hyper-Calvinist would never agree with a Southern Baptist that unrepentant Satan worshippers can ever enter Heaven. Hyper-Calvinist OSAS is something quite different than Southern Baptist antinomian OSAS.

Hyper-Calvinist OSAS is usually explained in terms of the “elect” and “irresistible grace”. The false doctrine of “irresistible” grace is the foundation stone of the heresy of hyper-Calvinist OSAS. Irresistible grace forces an “elect” man to be obedient to God, because irresistible grace destroys a man’s free will. Because the hyper-Calvinist denies the existance of free will, he blasphemes God, because hyper-Calvinism makes God the ultimate source of all evil.

Both the antinomian OSAS and the hyper-Calvinist OSAS are pernicious heresies. Catholics interested in apologetics should understand the difference between these two flavors of OSAS so that they can address the false beliefs that form the foundation of these two distinct heresies.

 

[StubbleSpark]

What is “hyper” about the “hyper-Calvinists,” I wonder. That sounds like pretty standard Calvinism to me. And yes, I was raised in an OSAS Baptist church that tought me there was NOTHING NOTHING I could do to lose salvation. I hesitate to call it a “Southern Baptist” church, though because it was one of many of that flavor in Michigan. Though I do understand that the term applies to a flavor of OSAS and geography, I did not want to conjure up images of rednecked individuals striking Sacred Scriptures with their palm in “worship” services (perhaps to remind themselves that God left them something real to guide them…)

Anywho,

Man: “Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life ?”

Jesus: “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments .” (Mt 19:16-17).

Just the words of our Lord and Savior Himself…