Assyrians Elect To Enter Into Full Communion W/ Catholic Church

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Hesychios said:
Apparently it is.

I don’t know how close. I will be interested to see how well they adjust.

However, this could be the death knell for union talks with the Church of the East. Mar Dinkha will probably not be very open to further dialogue now.
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Such certitude over the end of the possibility of fruitful dialogue!

Are you a familiar party when it comes to the thinking of Mar Dinkha?
 
Hesychios said:
Apparently it is.

I don’t know how close. I will be interested to see how well they adjust.

However, this could be the death knell for union talks with the Church of the East. Mar Dinkha will probably not be very open to further dialogue now.
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Why?

As I said before, I don’t know the history here. If Mar Dinkha sees the Assyrians having their own distinct traditions retained (as seems to be an important point), couldn’t it be an entry point for them to join as well?

Crudely, work out the kinks with this small group and then address whatever needs to be addressed through the trial and error when it comes to the larger group?
 
Hello,

Does anyone know who large this group is? Is it the whole Assyrian Church, just a Parish, an Eparchy?
 
Chellow said:
Can you give some links or explain please.
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Mar Bawai is under discipline, he has already been excommunicated from the Assyrian Church of the East. He does not represent that church in any capacity.

They have already been to court, and Mar Bawai lost his cathedral and all parish properties in his diocese. Mar Dinkha, the Patriarch, has already named a bishop as a replacement for Mar Bawai. From their point of view he should ask forgiveness and accept his discipline. Mar Bawai commands the loyalty of a portion of his former diocese, and probably sympathizers outside of it, but it represents a fragment of the Church of the East.

Accepting this man could actually be an expression of Uniatism, which has been condemned by the Balomond agreement as a means of attempting church unity. In other words, it is taking advantage of an internal dispute of another church to excise some people from it.

Try to imagine if a modern Roman Catholic bishop was excommunicated, and attempted to take his diocese out of the Roman Catholic church and into another. I am not arguing about whether it would be possible, I am asking you how it would feel…

If such a bishop receives “safe harbor” in some other church complete with his diocese, the original church is mightily offended. It can feel that it has been dialogged with in bad faith.

This happens to be why the TAC has not been welcomed with open arms (although in that case I think the Vatican is crazy for caring what the Anglican “non”-Communion thinks about such a move).

Apparently the Chaldean church has accepted this bishop, but I have to wonder if they had consulted with Rome first. Rome has not been quick to act upon such opportunities in the recent past.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

Does anyone know who large this group is? Is it the whole Assyrian Church, just a Parish, an Eparchy?
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It seems to be a bishop and about 3 dozen clergy who would be recieved without property, as the ACofE managed to keep what they had deeds to, from what I gather.

According to the press release:
Present at this Clergy Conference were H.G. Bishop Mar Bawai Soro, four priests and sixteen deacons. Two more priests and fourteen other deacons of ACAD have also sent in advance their signed proxies in support of this Declaration.
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So it sounds like 1 Bishop, 6 priests and 30 deacons.

How strong they are in faithful, I am not certain at all.

And I would not get to speculating about the TAC just too much yet. Whispers in different quarters have suggested that Rome is considering different proposals at this time. TAC bishops have agreed to remain silent until definative answer has been received. To date, no answer has been received (or baring that, agreements have been made to remain silent)…

Something could happen there yet.
 
My limited experience is that the Oriental Churches allow deacons to marry after ordination and so they have deacons who are teenagers. When it says 30 deacons, are we reasonably talking about the boys in the families of the 6 priests or are we talking more likely about men with families of their own?
 
Woodstock said:
My limited experience is that the Oriental Churches allow deacons to marry after ordination and so they have deacons who are teenagers. When it says 30 deacons, are we reasonably talking about the boys in the families of the 6 priests or are we talking more likely about men with families of their own?
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Are you per chance confusing them with sub-deacons? I know the Chaldeans in Detroit area have many young sub-deacons… but I am not aware (thought it is not impossible) of Oriental Christian communities ordaining young unmarried men to the diaconate and allowing later marriage.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Are you per chance confusing them with sub-deacons? I know the Chaldeans in Detroit area have many young sub-deacons… but I am not aware (thought it is not impossible) of Oriental Christian communities ordaining young unmarried men to the diaconate and allowing later marriage.
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I just looked it up and the ever-present wikipedia said the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church both allow boys to be ordained deacons and later to marry. My limited experiences with the Oriental Churches include a few Maronite parishes and a Coptic Orthodox church, which would explain why I saw it. If wiki is right (is it?), the practice is not shared by any others so it is not an issue with the Assyrians.
 
Woodstock said:
I just looked it up and the ever-present wikipedia said the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church both allow boys to be ordained deacons and later to marry. My limited experiences with the Oriental Churches include a few Maronite parishes and a Coptic Orthodox church, which would explain why I saw it. If wiki is right (is it?), the practice is not shared by any others so it is not an issue with the Assyrians.
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That could well be. Really it could. I have heard of limited instances in yester-century of Orthodox and Greek Catholics ordaining deacons right before marriage (fiance in tow) and then having them marry before being ordained a priest. This was, I understand quite limited…

And not to belabor the point, but many people seem to fail to see the difference between deacons and subdeacons… When Father Ragheen Gasanni was killed in Irag, he was accompanied by three sub-deacons… almost all news outlets I read the story in referred to them as deacons…
 
Fuerza said:
While there are no explicit words of consecration, they are there implicitly. Due to this fact, the Catholic Church does consider their consecrations to be valid. I’m not sure if the Chaldean Church
added an explicit consecration when they came into union with Rome, though I have heard that their anaphora does contains one. Perhaps one of the Chaldeans on this site can answer.
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In the current Divine Liturgy, the narritive has explicit words of consecration.

The Rite Of The Divine Mysteries

And yes, the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church have a joint declaration to allow recieve the Most Holy Qurbana (Eucharist)

GUIDELINES FOR ADMISSION TO THE EUCHARIST BETWEEN THE CHALDEAN CHURCH AND THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST
Fuerza said:
On a side note, does anyone feel that this request might strain the friendly relationship that Rome has had with the Assyrian Church recently? It kind of puts the RC in a bad position. Either deny the request and appear to be unwelcoming (as well as seeming to condone religious indifferentism), or accept the request and risk destroying years of healthy dialogue with the Assyrians.
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The dialogue was really damaged once Mar Bawai was excommunicated for seeking communion with the Catholic Church so whatever friendliness was there probably wasn’t that strong to begin with.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
The dialogue was really damaged once Mar Bawai was excommunicated for seeking communion with the Catholic Church so whatever friendliness was there probably wasn’t that strong to begin with.
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This is a tricky situation.

One would hope that this unia - if it moves forward as hoped - will be considered less of a problem than the creation of a fourth (or fifth -I am aware of a small “Chaldean Orthodox” community, I know not how large they are, but have a few parishes) Assyrian community ecclesial split. I am not unbiased here, but one would hope that this is seen as better than further division…

As I understand it, some slowing down in the momentum in healing the split between the Catholic and Assyrian Church of the East had occured in the past decade, as some ACofE clergy had made it known they were not as confident of some of the measures being pursued as their Patriarch and some who were likeminded…

I am reading that there were two “English congregations” that were with Mar Bawai. What does that mean, does anyone know?

And, BTW, welcome to the forum, Chaldean Rite!
 
Hesychios said:
Accepting this man could actually be an expression of Uniatism, which has been condemned by the Balomond agreement as a means of attempting church unity. In other words, it is taking advantage of an internal dispute of another church to excise some people from it.

Try to imagine if a modern Roman Catholic bishop was excommunicated, and attempted to take his diocese out of the Roman Catholic church and into another. I am not arguing about whether it would be possible, I am asking you how it would feel…
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I think that what Hesychios writes her has merit, but could be misunderstood. The Balamand declaration rejects efforts aimed at effecting conversions between the EO and Catholic Churches
1 Because of the way in which Catholics and Orthodox once again consider each other in relationship to the mystery of the Church and discover each other once again as Sister Churches, this form of “missionary apostolate” … which has been called “uniatism”, can no longer be accepted either as a method to be followed nor as a model of the unity our Churches are seeking.
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AFAIK, the Balamand declaration is pretty much regarded as a dead letter by EO’s.
 
grandfather said:
Suppose a Lutheran minister or bishop wanted to convert to Orthodoxy. Would the Orthodox Church tell them they were not welcome, but stay where they came from?
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One does not have to suppose, Grandfather. It has happened and they have been accepted. Up in Detroit there is a tiny “western rite” mission started by an ex-Lutheran, and one Continuing Anglican bishop has: Robert Waggener, a bishop of the Anglican Province of Christ the King and later of the Diocese of the Holy Cross, became Orthodox about a year ago and is currently pastor of a Western-Rite Antiochian Orthodox parish in Alabama.

In France, several Roman Catholic monastic groups were taken into Orthodoxy en masse, some even traveling to Greece to be rebaptized.

The notion that some outside third parties would advance - don’t take in an excommunicated bishop and his flock as it hurts ecumenism - seems to not hold much water. As Hesychios well knows, Catholics aren’t turned away. Why a bishop should be with his followers… I don’t see it.

Actually, again, it is far better in the long run for all Assyrian Christians that if this matter could not be resolved internally in the ACofE that these folks come into communion with the Chaldeans rather than create a new division like the Ancient Church of the East, or a breakaway like the “Chaldean Orthodox Church”…
 
**Why would the bishop who excommunicated him care if he went elsewhere?
**

Don’t you know the most important rule?

Adopt any heresy you wish, fornicate on the very altar itself–but whatever you do, DON’T QUIT THE CLUB!
 
ASimpleSinner said:
One does not have to suppose, Grandfather. It has happened and they have been accepted. Up in Detroit there is a tiny “western rite” mission started by an ex-Lutheran, and one Continuing Anglican bishop has: Robert Waggener, a bishop of the Anglican Province of Christ the King and later of the Diocese of the Holy Cross, became Orthodox about a year ago and is currently pastor of a Western-Rite Antiochian Orthodox parish in Alabama.

In France, several Roman Catholic monastic groups were taken into Orthodoxy en masse, some even traveling to Greece to be rebaptized.
.
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So the Orthodox complaint is a when someone who was associated with Orthodoxy converts to another affiliation. Is that what you are saying?
 
bpbasilphx said:
**Why would the bishop who excommunicated him care if he went elsewhere?
**

Don’t you know the most important rule?

Adopt any heresy you wish, fornicate on the very altar itself–but whatever you do, DON’T QUIT THE CLUB!
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I guess that leaves the door wide open to considering what it is to “quit the club”, eh Bishop B?
 
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