Assyrians Elect To Enter Into Full Communion W/ Catholic Church

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antgaria said:
Dear All,

Peace be with you…

Before I begin, please allow me to introduce myself. I am Anthony, …… they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock …” (John 10:16)

In Christ,
Anthony
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Welcome antgaria most pious article you have written, may your journey in unity be filled with grace.
 
4 – Someone asked about English Congregations. There are two parishes within the Diocese that are comprised of mostly English speaking members. They are the parishes of St. Barnabas the Apostle and St. Thomas. The priests of those two congregations are extremely knowledgeable in the Syriac tradition and especially the Church of the East. Both have been a wealth of information and a source of spiritual enlightenment to me.
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Is this St. Thomas parish the one located in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle?!

If so that is just a few blocks from where I’m typing right now, and I would love to stop by some time soon and meet with the pastor there. I’ve wondered about which jurisdiction it belonged to when I passed by it. I’m a member of the local mixed Melkite/Maronite community, and perhaps our communities can provide some mutual support. 🙂

At any rate it seems like a good opportunity to get to know more about your particular tradition, since (if this is the same parish) we might be working together a lot more in the coming months and years.

Peace and God bless!
 
Looks like it IS the same St. Thomas parish:

marbawai.com/docs/acadseattle.pdf

I guess I’m well placed to get some first-hand information on these developments. I look forward to meeting with the local Assyrian community. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty said:
While I’m sure the factor of isolation is under consideration (as well it should be if he’s a good and dedicated Bishop who looks out for the needs of his flock), I think it’s fairly safe to say that Mar Bawai Soro is quite sincere. He’s been pushing for reunion for years prior to his disciplining, and I think his current situation simply makes it easier to go for. Previously he was working within the Synod of his Church, but now he has been cut off, and it’s unclear how much his refusal to “tow the party line” with regards to laxity in dealing with errant Bishops contributed to his dismissal. 🤷

Peace and God bless!
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From wading through all that, I tend to agree with your assesment on theMar Bawai Soro . He seems to have been the prime-mover and shaker in efforts to reconcile with Rome in, from what I can gather, efforts that he envisioned were especially urgent in light of modern scholarship and the “diaspora” situation.

Let’s face it, when the Assyrians vacate “Assyria” and your patriarch of all the East is the Patriarch of Chicago (if not in name, at least in address), and the Oriental Orthodox block your efforts to join the Middle Eastern Council of Churches on the grounds they are disinterested in sitting at table with “Nestorians”… well some amount of soul searching and concearn over “where you fit in” is easy to understand.

I know many folks here are not mad about Vladimir Soloviev, but some of what Vladimir wrote in ***Russia and the Universal Church ***on the face of it seems to resonate with the Roman educated Mar Bawai Soro. (Spend some time reading his blog.)

Apparently, his assesment of “where to fit in” and the Patriarch’s did not jibe. (Imagine that, two churchman disagreeing… seem to recall seeing that happen here once or twice before.) This happens.

So as noted by our new friend Anthony, moves were made to take convictions to the next logical step.

Perhaps Anthony can share with us some prayers of the Assyrian tradition that we as a community may use for prayer and meditation in support of Mar Bawai Soro & his flock during this time.
 
I’d like to welcome our Assyrian new members, who are giving us some fascinating information.

What nobody else sees to be mentioning is that the Assyrian church already has canons about papal primacy. These are attributed to St. Maruthas, and appear in the nomocanon of Archbishop Elias of Damascus (Assyrian), and even, crossing denominational lines, in the canonical collections of Bar Hebraeus and Ibn 'Assal (a Jacobite and Copt respectively), as well as the Ethiopian collection known as Fetha Nagast.

I’m including a link to a detailed study of this issue by Arthur Voobus. The time has come when these canons, once dismissed as spurious-- even though they are of eastern provenance and almost entirely from the Syriac MS. tradition-- deserve a second look.

melvyl.cdlib.org/F/4PHMEBNF26D598FXPMIG18MIMK1DPNJGSPPPYNPCEQAFXE77GK-01697?func=full-set-set&set_number=049774&set_entry=000005&format=999
 
Welcome Anthony, and many years to Mar Bawai, his clergy and all in your Church. I rejoice with you, your church, and the Chaldean Catholic Church.

I think under the circumstances Mar Bawai only did what he felt necessary for larger ecclesiastical communion and for the good of his flock considering the internal divisions within the Assyrian churches, the scandals with Mar Aprim Khamis, etc. I applaud his bravery.

I don’t see this as “uniatism” at all - he certainly intends to keep his particular Church’s traditions. If that is “uniatism” than so is the “Western Rite of Orthodoxy”.

Mar Bawai made many excellent contributions over the years to the Orientale Lumen conferences.
FDRLB
 
Dear all,

Peace,

Thank you for the letters of support and for your prayers. It is good to be greeted by brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you.

ASimpleSinner, I will look for a prayer when I have a chance to look through some of our liturgy books.

I just wanted to add in the meantime, in response to jj2011’s comments. The case for the Church of the East has an especially fine case in that we have the nomocanons of our saint, Mar Abdisho.

Quoting an open letter by our bishop:

The official organ of our Church of the East, Mar Abdisho of Soba, the last theologian in our Church before its fall, based himself on such an understanding when he collected his famous Nomocanon in which he clearly states the following: “To the Great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid [in the grave] there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [Rome] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs.” (Memra 9; Risha 1) Furthermore, Abdisho asserts “. . . . And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema.” (Memra 9; Risha 8).

Pace e bene,
Anthony
 
wow…striking quote indeed…
antgaria said:
Dear all,

Peace,

Thank you for the letters of support and for your prayers. It is good to be greeted by brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you.

ASimpleSinner, I will look for a prayer when I have a chance to look through some of our liturgy books.

I just wanted to add in the meantime, in response to jj2011’s comments. The case for the Church of the East has an especially fine case in that we have the nomocanons of our saint, Mar Abdisho.

Quoting an open letter by our bishop:
The official organ of our Church of the East, Mar Abdisho of Soba, the last theologian in our Church before its fall, based himself on such an understanding when he collected his famous Nomocanon in which he clearly states the following: “To the Great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid [in the grave] there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [Rome] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs.” (Memra 9; Risha 1) Furthermore, Abdisho asserts “. . . . And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema.” (Memra 9; Risha 8).Pace e bene,
Anthony
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Woodstock said:
I just looked it up and the ever-present wikipedia said the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church both allow boys to be ordained deacons and later to marry. My limited experiences with the Oriental Churches include a few Maronite parishes and a Coptic Orthodox church, which would explain why I saw it. If wiki is right (is it?), the practice is not shared by any others so it is not an issue with the Assyrians.
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I heard that the Assyrian Church allows marriage after Ordination and even Bishops to be married, though I’m not sure whether this is officially allowed or just the occasional abuse of canon law
 
East_and_West said:
Thanks Michael. Considering the fact that this Church was already out of communion with its mother Church, do you think this will be viewed as the “u” word - ism? Do you think the mother Church will take offense if they enter into communion with the Catholic Church and that it will seriously damage inter-Church relations?
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That is essentially what I have been saying. This group has not been completely out of communion with it’s mother church. The bishop has been excommunicated, replaced and supposedly defrocked, but the priests, deacons and faithful had not, as far as I can tell. They would all have been welcomed to stay.

Had the bishop alone converted, that would be a different kind of issue, even large numbers could convert as individuals. But it looks as though the bishop was engineering an exodus which was to alienate an entire diocesan structure (or more) and it’s temporal goods. In other words he was conspiring to strip the patriarchate of it’s following.

Indications at this point seem to be that the majority of the ACofE episcopate will follow their Patriarch. There has been a loss of face, and the Patriarchate might not agree to any more dialog for the time being. Possibly many years.

On the other hand, had the synod forced the issue, and the Patriarch relented or been deposed by the synod, then it would be possible to get the Patriarch and most of the bishops to submit to Rome, but that has not happened. The Patriarchal line still stands, it is not in submission to Rome and it has been offended.

These things can take years, decades or even centuries to work around.
 
JMBNH said:
I heard that the Assyrian Church allows marriage after Ordination and even Bishops to be married, though I’m not sure whether this is officially allowed or just the occasional abuse of canon law
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I am curious because of the word adultery above. It said a bishop committed adultery and the only way I figured it could be taken was as a generic for sex outside of a marriage or that the woman was married to someone and therefore committed adultery and he with her. Your post throws another possibility into the mix. Was Mar Aprim Khamis himself married?

Secondly, what does Mar Aprem Mookin say now? A previous post said he is also in favor of unity.
 
antgaria said:
Dear all,

Peace,

Thank you for the letters of support and for your prayers. It is good to be greeted by brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you.

ASimpleSinner, I will look for a prayer when I have a chance to look through some of our liturgy books.

I just wanted to add in the meantime, in response to jj2011’s comments. The case for the Church of the East has an especially fine case in that we have the nomocanons of our saint, Mar Abdisho.

Quoting an open letter by our bishop:

The official organ of our Church of the East, Mar Abdisho of Soba, the last theologian in our Church before its fall, based himself on such an understanding when he collected his famous Nomocanon in which he clearly states the following: “To the Great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid [in the grave] there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [Rome] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs.” (Memra 9; Risha 1) Furthermore, Abdisho asserts “. . . . And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema.” (Memra 9; Risha 8).

Pace e bene,
Anthony
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This quote is DELICIOUS!!! 🙂 😃
 
Dear Woodstock,

The Church of the East does not allow bishops to be married. Skipping through the early developments in the Church {all Apostolic traditions} to the late 5th century, when a council was held by BarSauma to allow for marriage. It was overturned later that same year, but then the possibility of marriage was once again re-affirmed in a couple of other councils.

It was Mar Aba I, the Catholicos in the 6th century that held a council that declared marriage to be forbidden to monks and bishops. The episcopacy would be drawn from monks who had lived a life of celibacy. This law has been in force since.

In Christ,
Anthony
 
Dear all,

ASimpleSinner asked that I share a prayer from our tradition. I was at a loss as to which one to share. I thought about the Trisagion immediately, {“Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us”} for the obvious reason that it is quite a shared tradition among the eastern Churches.

But then I thought maybe one of the priestly prayers would be nice. Something like “May the Name of God the Lord of all, who orders the times and seasons, be glorified among us and may the right hand of the care of His mercy overshadow us who are feeble and sinful, and the whole world, the Holy Church and its children, our fathers and teachers, our departed who have been separated from us and have gone from among us, and all our brotherhood in Christ. Christ the hope of our nature, now and at all times, for ever and ever.”

Then I thought about the Litany, and when the deacon asks “Let us pray, peace be with us. Let us pray and make request of God the Lord of all.” And asks also “for the Holy Catholic Church, here and everywhere… that His peace and tranquility abide in it until the end of the world.”

I guess in final thoughts, I would like to quote from a tishbukhta attributed to St. Ephraim.
…Hear Oh God, the voice of your servants, and the entreaty of them that glorify You. For You are our King, and our hope and confidence is in Your great Name. Grant us to gain unanimity, without doubting, in faith. While we confess that by Your will all things were fashioned from nothing, the nature of Your existence cannot be understood by creatures, oh hidden Being Who dwells in light and like Whom there is none…
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I am sorry that I couldn’t come up with something. I probably should have asked my priest when I had a chance.

In Christ,
Anthony
 
Shlama illukh akhona Anthony!

Welcome to the forum! We are glad to have you here. Your article in Zinda Magazine is superb! I stumbled upon it over 2 months ago.

Thank you for quoting from the writings of Mar Awdisho Bar Brikha! The Primacy of Rome is beautifully laid out. 🙂

I just yesterday ordered Mar Bawai’s book: The Church of the East: Apostolic & Orthodox. Your bishop Mar Bawai is a very good bishop and pastor of the flock of Christ our Lord. May the Lord bless him and his flock forever and ever, and unto the ages of ages!

May the Holy Cross protect the Holy Church of the East!

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/32/255px-Stthomascross.jpg

God bless,

Rony Odish
Chaldean brother in Christ
 
A bit off topic but what is the Assyrian Church’s Old Testament Canon, is it the same as the Syrian one?
 
What is the Christology of this group? Do they accept the title of the Theotokos for the Virgin Mary?
 
East_and_West said:
What is the Christology of this group? Do they accept the title of the Theotokos for the Virgin Mary?
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cired.org/faith.html

As far as holding that Mary is Theotokos, I read at one time that this Church was not in attendance at the Council of Chalcedon where that declaration was made, so no, it is not a part of thier theological makeup. This is not to say that they do not have a rich Marian tradition.

They do recite the Nicaean Creed.

cired.org/aceov.html

Sub
 
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