Assyrians Elect To Enter Into Full Communion W/ Catholic Church

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If he is excommunicated he not only does not represent that church in any cpacity, but he is no longer part of that church. Why would the bishop who excommunicated him care if he went elsewhere?
I am pretty sure you missed the point I was making.

I was trying to explain what I think their reaction would be, because I was asked to clarify. I have no horse in this race.

There are ancient canons of the church which dealt with this issue. It is nothing new.

Today (for a crazy example) if the SSPX had decided to go Orthodox after Archbishop LeFebvre was excommunicated, the Orthodox would have to think long and hard about what that would do to relations with the larger Roman Catholic church. Now if they don’t care what Rome thinks they might just accept the SSPX, and of course Rome would interpret that for what it is: they don’t care what Roma thinks and it would be enough reason to suspend further reunion talks, because the talks would clearly be insincere and a waste of time.

That’s just how it is.
 
So the Orthodox complaint is a when someone who was associated with Orthodoxy converts to another affiliation. Is that what you are saying?
That is everyone’s complaint.

This is why the Roman Catholic church puts a higher priority on certain cases, they do not want the flock split complete with a valid episcopate and clergy.

They want disobedient sons to return home. They don’t want outside forces becoming enablers.
 
Why was Mar Bawai excommunicated and disciplined by the Mar Dinkha?
 
Why was Mar Bawai excommunicated and disciplined by the Mar Dinkha?
Mar Bawai refused to sign off to Patriarch Dinkha’s (together with the Holy Synod’s) initiative to forgive and forget one Bishop’s indiscretion (adultery) and to allow that Bishop to continue ministering to his diocese. Mar Bawai wanted that Bishop to be stripped of all his diocesan duties and excommunicated.

It was aggravated by the financial scandal another Bishop was involved in down in Australia. Mar Bawai wanted that other Bishop also disciplined by the Patriarch and the Holy Synod but neither of the latter did.

Mar Bawai was the lead Bishop in the ecumenical talks between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church. His group is not the entire Assyrian Church of the East but it is substantial and this group has been trying to rid their Church of scandals and mismanagement and to restore Church discipline for a few years now.
 
Such certitude over the end of the possibility of fruitful dialogue!

Are you a familiar party when it comes to the thinking of Mar Dinkha?
If he was disciplining Mar Bawai, and was insistent enough to sue (and win) in secular court, I’m quite sure he is not going to be indifferent to whoever picks up Mar Bawai’s contract.
 
If he was disciplining Mar Bawai, and was insistent enough to sue (and win) in secular court, I’m quite sure he is not going to be indifferent to whoever picks up Mar Bawai’s contract.
This bishop is calling for an end to scandalous behavior in his church and is standing firm in his conviction, putting his money where his mouth is. He and 36 other clergy and about 3,000 faithful (according to the numbers in this thread) want to be in communion with Rome while doing so. When it comes down to it, would another Church’s opinion matter in whether or not they should be accepted into communion? We might take steps to minimize the friction, but I can’t see denying them unity because it steps on someone else’s toes. The same goes for the TAC and whomever else is in the same boat. I don’t see how there could be any question of denying them on those grounds.
 
This bishop is calling for an end to scandalous behavior in his church and is standing firm in his conviction, putting his money where his mouth is. He and 36 other clergy and about 3,000 faithful (according to the numbers in this thread) want to be in communion with Rome while doing so. When it comes down to it, would another Church’s opinion matter in whether or not they should be accepted into communion? We might take steps to minimize the friction, but I can’t see denying them unity because it steps on someone else’s toes. The same goes for the TAC and whomever else is in the same boat. I don’t see how there could be any question of denying them on those grounds.
Not to offend (because we Orthodox have quite a few scandals boiling), but how is submitted to Rome going to solve the scandal?

In any case, the ACoE, I expect, is not going to be thrilled, no matter how justified or not it is.
 
For the record, I think Mar Bawai is an admirable man, and the Catholic church is blessed with his presence.

For some reason, it is very difficult to discuss issues in a detached manner on this forum. It is quite discouraging. If all these threads are going to be is hurrahs and boos they are definitely not worth a persons’ time, not mine and not yours.

The reality is the Assyrian Church of the East is undergoing a serious crises now and the separation of Mar Bawai’s people from the rest is not helping to heal schism, it just moves the schism around a little bit.

Ideally, the entire synod of that church would be working toward an arrangement as a body, and that opportunity is now apparently lost, or seriously hampered. There is plenty of blame to go around to be sure, the ACofE has made their own mess and should do their laundry. If they had done so when it was possible they could potentially have been moving in the direction of Rome as a complete whole.

This is the kind of problem that has kept schism alive for centuries, we have not learned how to work together, we have not learned from our past mistakes.
 
Not to offend (because we Orthodox have quite a few scandals boiling), but how is submitted to Rome going to solve the scandal?

In any case, the ACoE, I expect, is not going to be thrilled, no matter how justified or not it is.
Isa’s back! With 16 posts to his credit just today by 530pm. Good job, back in the saddle!
 
I must be ecumenically challenged or something. If Mar Bawai believes that Rome is the true church, he must join it regardless of the effect his actions have on ecumenism.
 
Mar Bawai Soro, former bishop of Western California, has been out of communion with his parent church, headed by Mar Dinkha for some time now (but I don’t know if it has been a year). So this group is flying solo.

I remember something about Mar Dinkha reassigning Mar Bawai Soro to Iran as a discipline, and he refused to go.

The separation occured long enough ago for the court case to reach a conclusion in the State of California, and all of the real property has been turned over to the Church of the East which continues to hold Masses, apparently. The Chaldean Catholic church could see an influx of new members in the USA. I don’t know if this disaffected group numbers in the thousands.

One wonders what they will think of the newly refurbished Chaldean Qurbono.

Perhaps some of the Chaldean posters here can give us updates on how it is going from time to time. 🙂

Michael
Thanks Michael. Considering the fact that this Church was already out of communion with its mother Church, do you think this will be viewed as the “u” word - ism? Do you think the mother Church will take offense if they enter into communion with the Catholic Church and that it will seriously damage inter-Church relations?
 
something i found on another catholic forum which could exlpain things a bit better for you guys:

====

Hi all,

I registered on this site in order to ease the confusion and misunderstanding of the recent steps taking by Dr. Mar Bawai Soro.

I was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE) until corruption enveloped the hierarchy of the Holy Church of my forefathers and ancestors. This was after the current Patriarch of the ACOE allowed a Bishop (Mar Aprim Khamis) that committed adultery with a Pakistani Muslim (Yasmine Khan) to remain in his bishopric duties against the canons of the Church. Unfortunately, this news was kept in the closet until a Chicago Tribune reporter stumbled on the adultery of this bishop and the blackmail he had paid towards the Pakistani woman.

zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2001/7.23.01/index.php#ZindaSays

Sadly, this wasn’t the only time this Patriarch went against the canons in the Church. In 1994, Mar Dinkha, the ACOE Patriarch, along with his bishops met with the Holy Father, St. John Paul II, in order to pave a tangible road towards unity and communion. Finally, the Church of the East would end its ~1500 years of ecclesiastical isolation. Since Assyrians have been isolated for such a long time the reception to this news was mixed. Please read Mar Bawai’s assessment of the news by fellow Assyrians:

cired.org/cat/04_Reception_of_the_CCD.pdf

The ACOE entered within its own sunhadoos (canon laws) this common christological declaration as well as their effort to reestablish unity within the church through the Joint-Committee for Theological Dialogue.

cired.org/cat/03_Joint_Statement_1995.pdf

Without notice Mar Dinkha, ACOE Patriarch, suspended this committee and took no more interest in the unity with the Roman Catholic church. Rumors flooded all the dioceses of the ACOE that Mar Dinkha did not want to submit to the Pope. Ironically, the Joint-Committee for Theological Dialogue was no longer active around the year 2000. This was the same time that the corruption of the ACOE flooded the church halls in regards to the Bishop blackmailed by Yasmine Khan.

Mar Bawai Soro did not stop campaigning for unity within the church as well as striving for accountability. He was the only bishop in the Church who intentionally did not sign the 2001 ACOE Synod regarding the adulterous Bishop Khamis’ minor punishment following his affairs and paid blackmail. Mar Bawai was interviewed on TV and stated that to sign the Synod would place him under anathema as he would actively go against the Canons of the church by allowing Bishop Khamis to still carry out bishopric duties within the church when his Canon punishment was to be defrocked. Interestingly, the Canon of Mar Odisho states that if a bishop is caught committing adultery he must be defrocked immediately and if not the entire Synod will be placed under “khormeh” (anathema).

After his failed attempt for accountability within the church, Mar Bawai started amplifying his message of unity between the Chaldean Catholic Church of the East and the Assyrian Church of the East through the path towards Vatican. Many isolationists within the church started to actively campaign against Mar Bawai for such unifying views. They did not want to be “papayeh”–an assyrian derogatory term for Catholics. During this time, a famous satellite program “Assyria Sat” started to not only belittle Catholics but also our brothers and sisters in the Chaldean Church. Soon certain bishops, the very same that accompanied the Patriarch’s meeting with H.H. John Paul II, started to appear on his television program and in front of their church flock speaking against both the Chaldean and Roman Catholic Church. These bishops began to be known as “isolationists” and the bishops that were for unity as “integrationists.” For more information please read the below report on the bishops’ views and some of their controversies. It is quite interesting to see only two bishops (Mar Bawai Soro and Mar Aprem Mookin) as pro-unity and they are also the only educated ones as well.

zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2002/8.12.02/index.php#TheLighthouse

Some of our people, especially those that remain in the Assyrian Church of the East in light of corruption and reckless mismanagement, seem to have forgotten the oath Mar Dinkha took with His Holiness St. John Paul II. In light of more corruption charges which not only included the adulterous bishop but another bishop in Australia who was accused of not only participating in Ponzi Scheme that bankrupted Australia of over 100 million dollars, but have immoral relations with a divorcee Eva George.

zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2005/10.5.05/index_wed.php#TheLighthouse

When Mar Bawai in 2005 was mysteriously suspended on grounds that “he disobeyed the patriarch” because he wrote two confidential letters regarding his alarming concern over the illegal abandonment of the unity quest based on the 2004 Common Christological Declaration with Vatican and the 2007 Ecclesiastical Understanding agreement with the Chaldean Catholic Church as well as the inaction towards the grave vow breaking of certain bishops and clergy, many people within the church basically said “enough is enough.”
 
continuing from above…

The Santa Cruz District Court found no fault in Mar Bawai’s finances or his duty as a Bishop. They only ruled that the buildings he was in supervising are no longer his as he had been excommunicated by the ACOE. Regardless if their decision is canonical or not, the churches belonged to the Synod of the ACOE.

Those that actively left the ACOE and who are members of Mar Bawai’s international diocese, are not only active in unity and dialogue with our Chaldean brothers and sisters, but we are also very active with our Ancient Church of the East parishioners. We believe that our sustained movement will not only restore unity and accountability within Christ’s body in the Eastern Christian sect, but more importantly we will be able to better propel Christianity in a world where sin and distraction is force that needs to be reckoned with.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

May God lead us in unity and fellowship in order to pursue Christ’s Mission on earth.

God Bless!

====

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/275595/fpart/3
 
Wow. This sounds like an extremely complex problem. On the one hand, it appears that we should never reject those who want to enter into communion with Christ’s Church. However, by allowing this group into the Church it appears that it can viewed as an act of “u word” -ism and such would perpetuate the Schism between the Catholic Church and The ACoE. The situation surounding this bishop also seem to compicate the matter. Is he seeking union because he really believes in the Universal Jurisdiction of the Bishop or Rome or because he wan’ts to avoid isolation for himself and his flock? Also, he does seem to be in the right when it comes to his conflict with his mother Church but, how does that affect our relationship with the synod of Bishops of the ACoE? It just seems like a huge mess that could have dire consequences no matter how the situation is resolved.
May God grant His Holiness and those at the Vatican great wisdom in dealing with this matter.
 
Is he seeking union because he really believes in the Universal Jurisdiction of the Bishop or Rome or because he wan’ts to avoid isolation for himself and his flock?
While I’m sure the factor of isolation is under consideration (as well it should be if he’s a good and dedicated Bishop who looks out for the needs of his flock), I think it’s fairly safe to say that Mar Bawai Soro is quite sincere. He’s been pushing for reunion for years prior to his disciplining, and I think his current situation simply makes it easier to go for. Previously he was working within the Synod of his Church, but now he has been cut off, and it’s unclear how much his refusal to “tow the party line” with regards to laxity in dealing with errant Bishops contributed to his dismissal. 🤷

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear All,

Peace be with you…

Before I begin, please allow me to introduce myself. I am Anthony, one of the sub-deacons who is within the diocese of H.G. Mar Bawai Soro, and one of the people in the original signing of the declaration of intent. I don’t represent in any ways the official voice of the diocese, but wanted to clear up some questions I ran into… opinions from my personal experience and knowledge of these matters.

1 – First, in regards to the size of the group, we have about 3 dozen priests and deacons as someone pointed out. Estimates of the number of people who support this movement will only lead to banter about numbers and people are always prone to over exaggerate anyways, so I don’t want to even take a guess at it, suffice it to say, it is a sizeable number of families. The declaration of intent is supported by the whole diocese that has chosen to support Mar Bawai, seeing that he is walking according to the path of our Lord. Most of the deacons are men with family, while there is a good number of subdeacons and readers who are also involved.

2 – In regards to the Institution Narrative: Although the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari was found to be valid without the explicit recital of the words, the insertion of the Narrative was allowed for by the ACOE {Assyrian Church of the East} and we have indeed recited it in our Liturgy services. It was especially a sign of our desire for unity with the other Apostolic traditions, and specifically with our Chaldean brothers.

3 – One person asked about the the new Chaldean liturgy, and indeed it has been brought back more in line with its traditional roots.

4 – Someone asked about English Congregations. There are two parishes within the Diocese that are comprised of mostly English speaking members. They are the parishes of St. Barnabas the Apostle and St. Thomas. The priests of those two congregations are extremely knowledgeable in the Syriac tradition and especially the Church of the East. Both have been a wealth of information and a source of spiritual enlightenment to me.

Now, I will address the situation. Others have remarked on the history of what has happened, and they have talked about the reason of dispute and why our bishop was treated thus badly. It will be a long posting if I try to talk about it, and it is not the reason of my posting.

Instead, I will address it from the standpoint of someone who is within the parish which is the cathedral of our diocese. Our parish has always been close to our brothers within the Chaldean Catholic Church in San Jose. From long before I was a regular attendee, the two parishes had always had a strong bond between them, especially as signified by the co-celebration of the “Rogation of the Ninevites” and the Feast of Thanksgiving the day after the 3 day rogation. To me personally, the priest of St. Mary’s {Catholic Church} has been a personal spiritual father to me just as the priests within my own parish and my diocese.

The CCD which was signed helped foster that situation, and it was with great sadness that many of us saw that people were trying to break the relationship between us, especially in light of the other bishops’ refusal to put into effect what would have been the natural conclusions of the talks with Rome.

If Christological differences are resolved, and Sacraments are respected, and even if somehow a step further was taken in regards to our respective patristics, and if our Church tradition, and fathers too, quite clearly state the primacy of Rome, since it is the blessed city in whom are laid two preachers, Peter and Paul {paraphrase from our liturgical books in the Feast of Sts Peter and Paul, for more information, see“In Defense of Our Faith” in zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2005/12.7.05/index_wed.php } then what is to keep us from unity with the Chaldean church? It is the branch of our Church that is in communion with Rome. Why would we not pursue unity? Is it a matter of profane vanity and pride in trying to preserve our own positions? A lack of desire for accountability to our own traditions, and to the Apostolic faith? Why?

This split had long ago stopped being an internal dispute. I agree with ASimpleSinner who stated that this thing not being solved internally might in the long run be beneficial to all Assyrian Christians. This is not a petty material dispute. We do not follow Mar Bawai just because of some personal preference. We have taken a stand based upon our faith and our desire to be Orthodox and ever faithful to the traditions of our Church!

In response to Isa Almisry’s question {“how is submitted to Rome going to solve the scandal?”}, our desire join in communion with Rome and to enter the Chaldean Church is not an attempt to resolve scandal. It is that we must be in communion with fellow Christians. We cannot just be on our own, standing “contra mundum,” nor was that ever our intention. We did not want splintering, but rather unity. We did not look to hate, but only to be established in love. And we definitely did not want to start another splinter within the Church of the East. So that is not an option… having a fourth, then maybe fifth, then sixth, etc,etc, branch. No, we remain faithful to our tradition as put forward by our Saints, Doctors, and Fathers. The Church of the East is the “Catholic Church in the East,” meaning it is NOT supposed to be standing alone outside of communion with all, just for whatever reason it feels like, but rather it is to seek to fulfill our Lord’s Prayer and words… “That they all may be one”. (John 17:21)

In conclusion, I ask, please pray that the Lord guide our humble diocese in this journey as we seek the Lord, following His light. And rejoice my brothers in Christ, remembering our Lord Jesus Christ’s declaration, “I have other sheep … they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock …” (John 10:16)

In Christ,
Anthony
 
Beautiful words, Anthony. My prayers are with you and your diocese. God bless you all in your journey! :blessyou:

Pace e Bene
Andrew
 
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