At what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I’m not so sure that we’re going to be “asking God questions”.
We won’t need to.
It will all become clear.

Your friend chose death.
You chose life.

You won’t be “sad” over it. (The damned souls don’t get the power and fun of dragging others down with them).

And you will go on your way into Eternity.

 

[lelinator]

You do realize that forgiveness is not a post-Christ phenomenon, right? People forgave one another long before Him.

Ah, and you think that there were no Christians before Christ.

But I think, that if you show me a person who can sincerely forgive all those who transgress against them, then I’ll show you a Christian.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Ah, and you think that there were no Christians before Christ.

This is definitionally the case.

But I think, that if you show me a person who can sincerely forgive all those who transgress against them, then I’ll show you a Christian.

I’ve heard your incorrect usage of this term before. I obviously don’t agree with this statement, so there’s no reason to assume I do.

 

[lelinator]

lelinator:

How many people does it take to justify the existence of hell?

Even one person who went did evil and refused to repent for it.

Forgiveness only comes in the same measure that it’s given, because they are in fact the same thing. My forgiveness of others IS in actuality the forgiveness of myself.

The sincerity of my repentance, is measured by the magnitude of my forgiveness.

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[lelinator]

lelinator:

Ah, and you think that there were no Christians before Christ.

This is definitionally the case.

Indeed it’s true…you and I have different definitions of what it means to be a Christian.

I think that the definition of a Christian is bound by these two humble pieces of scripture.

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

This question reminds me of the short story “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I think that the definition of a Christian is bound by these two humble pieces of scripture.

And, at least from the Catholic standpoint, you are wrong.

 

[oliver109]

Life and death were chosen in equal measure by both people, how is committing sin seconds before death worse than committing sin days before death and having time to repent, God is frankly not generous enough with the time it takes some people to repent.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Understandably, I’m not at all concerned about the Catholic standpoint.

Then consider not posting on a Catholic forum.

 

[lelinator]

Then consider not posting on a Catholic forum.

Okay…

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

You assume that everyone would repent of only they were given enough time.

I dunno.

I’ve seen people merrily leave their spouse and children to take up with somebody else and never show a scrap of remorse even when the trail of misery that they caused is incontrovertible and right in front of their eyes.

That’s just one example

 

[oliver109]

I think it differs from person to person, i have never felt like a wicked person myself, i could be wrong though, i could be exceptionally wicked for all i know.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Nobody ever sees themselves as a villain

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Nobody ever sees themselves as a villain

Not even real-life villains or well-written fictional ones.

 

[LilyM]

0Scarlett_nidiyilii:

I used to think that people committed sins because they didn’t “know better”, and if it were all just Explained To Them they would fall in line.

It is not matter of explaining. People need to witness Heaven and Hell so they can choose.

But the fact is, people are self centered and unwilling to delay gratification. If there is a popular vice, people will twist them self into a pretzel to justify it.
And power and revenge feel good .

So no, it’s not usually a knowledge deficit.

That because some people have specific nature. Sometimes it is very difficult to go against your nature.

It isnt a matter of people needing to see.

I don’t need to see someone murdered to know that it is a terrible.thing and that we shouldn’t do it.

I don’t need to contract cancer to know it is a horrible disease and, to the extent that I cam, I shoild avoid things that cause it.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I mean, I’m not claiming there is no knowledge component to it.

For instance, people have become pro life after learning about embryonic development.

But knowledge isn’t the only factor that goes into human decision making.

 

[Gorgias]

It just makes no sense to me that a person who has repented sometimes during life but happens to die after committing sin would never according to God have repented after death because they just loved sin too much.

Do you mean “repented after death” or “repented if they hadn’t died”? The two are very different thought experiments…

You didn’t answer the question, would you accept the premise that I have stopped being evil?

It depends. Have you repented of your sins, received God’s forgiveness, and are attempting to avoid those sins now? If so, then yes. If not, then no. Easy peasy.

Salvation comes, not from my accepting that Christ died for my sins, but rather from accepting that Christ died for your sins.

Is that because you believe that you don’t sin? Or aren’t in need of a savior?

So why did God make His Son suffer so?

He made His Son suffer

God the Father didn’t “make Jesus suffer.”

And it’s in forgiving the sins of others that one finally finds the salvation that was always there, but which seems impossible to find.

Pelagius is on the phone. He wants credit for his heresy, thank you very much.

 

[lelinator]

Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman:

Then consider not posting on a Catholic forum.

Okay…

Okay, I’ve considered it. But I have to ask if that’s really what you want. You really don’t want me to share my viewpoint on CAF anymore? May I ask, is it that you don’t want anyone with a non-Catholic viewpoint to post on CAF, or is it just my viewpoint that you find so objectionable?

In either case, I tell you what, if you can get a consensus of the Catholics here to agree with you, then I will indeed stop posting here.

I’ll make it simple, anyone who agrees with Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman go up and like his post. If it gets to 10 likes, then I’m gone.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

May I ask, is it that you don’t want anyone with a non-Catholic viewpoint to post on CAF, or is it just my viewpoint that you find so objectionable?

It’s just yours. You came into a Catholic space and decided that it was your right to completely ignore the Catholic viewpoint when discussing things with Catholics. I don’t want you gone, per se, but you should leave if you’re incapable of realizing that a Catholic forum will vehemently disagree with you and often shut down your lines of logic because the premises are wrong.

 

[lelinator]

lelinator:

May I ask, is it that you don’t want anyone with a non-Catholic viewpoint to post on CAF, or is it just my viewpoint that you find so objectionable?

It’s just yours.

Well thank you for clearing that up.

I suppose it’s time for Luke 9:5 then.