At what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

[oliver109]

Indeed it is

 

[STT]

There is more than sufficient reason for believing in God, and there is more than sufficient reason to believe that the Earth is approximately spherical. Yet there are still people who don’t believe it:

People need education otherwise there will be people who think that the Earth is flat.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Aquinas would say that, witnessing the souls in hell, the souls in heaven are able to recognize the justice of God having been carried out. There is goodness in that.

I would that that recognition is not like the human kind, but a result of an exalted state of knowledge and understanding which leaves no sorrow in the souls in Heaven.

 

[STT]

You must understand that accepting the existence of God has strong implications in our life while accepting the existence of a smartphone has not. This is the reason why some people do not understand the validity of the rational arguments supporting the existence of God; it’s because they are not willing to accept all the implications that the existence of God would have in their life. When a truth has strong implications in our life, people often do not recognize it as long as they are not willing to accept all its implications. This is a well known psychological process called “denial” or “abnegation”; it is a psychological defense mechanism, in which a person rejects a fact, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.
I think that atheism is a typical example of denial.

What implication could God has if His presence is a hallucination. There are many people who don’t believe in God, they love their neighbors, and they have a normal life.

The fact that you say “I don’t think” proves my point, i.e. you are unable to prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination.
In fact, we know that hallucinations are possible, therefore you cannot prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination, you can only think/believe it is not, therefore you need faith to believe it.

What is real? Am I real? Are you real?

Your comment has nothing to do with what I wrote; please try to read it more carefully.

My comment is related to what you said. Having faith is not enough. In fact the Church says that God can be approached through the reason and faith.

 

[oliver109]

I still find it impossible to fathom how a person can be up in Heaven and they ask God why their friend is in Hell and not themself despite both people having been great sinners, what is God going to say that sounds rational, that sounds comforting? That person A managed to die after going to confession while person B died just before going to confession?

 

[whatistrue]

People are educated and still reject what they are taught. Hence the flat earthers and people who fall for charlatans and for politician’s lies. Never underestimate the lengths that people will go to in order to justify their prejudices and pet opinions.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

what is God going to say that sounds rational,

That A repented and took steps to reconcile themselves with God while B rejected His grace.

 

[oliver109]

Both A and B had repented, sinned, repented and so on, the only difference is that A died after going to confession and B died before going to confession. Both sinners had rejected Gods grace at various points in their life.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Both sinners had rejected Gods grace at various points in their life.

Only one persisted in taking the right steps until death.

 

[Mmarco]

I still find it impossible to fathom how a person can be up in Heaven and they ask God why their friend is in Hell and not themself despite both people having been great sinners, what is God going to say that sounds rational, that sounds comforting? That person A managed to die after going to confession while person B died just before going to confession?

I think you still missed the point which is sincere repentance; if person B has repented and died just before going to confession, he will not go to hell. People who go to hell are those who would have never repented even if they had lived one thousand years because they have irreversely and definitely chosen evil.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

You must understand that accepting the existence of God has strong implications in our life while accepting the existence of a smartphone has not. This is the reason why some people do not understand the validity of the rational arguments supporting the existence of God; it’s because they are not willing to accept all the implications that the existence of God would have in their life. When a truth has strong implications in our life, people often do not recognize it as long as they are not willing to accept all its implications. This is a well known psychological process called “denial” or “abnegation”; it is a psychological defense mechanism, in which a person rejects a fact, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.
I think that atheism is a typical example of denial.

What implication could God has if His presence is a hallucination.

I have never said that God’s presence is an hallucination; I have said that you need faith to believe that a beatific vision is not an hallucination. Please read more carefully what I wrote.

Mmarco:

The fact that you say “I don’t think” proves my point, i.e. you are unable to prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination.
In fact, we know that hallucinations are possible, therefore you cannot prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination, you can only think/believe it is not, therefore you need faith to believe it.

What is real? Am I real? Are you real?

I know I am real since I directly feel my own existence as a conscious being; this is the most obvious truth each of us can understand; we can then prove to ourselves our own existence (Cogito ergo sum). On the contrary, we cannot prove to ourselves that a beatific vision is not an hallucination; we can only believe it by faith.

Mmarco:

Your comment has nothing to do with what I wrote; please try to read it more carefully.

My comment is related to what you said. Having faith is not enough. In fact the Church says that God can be approached through the reason and faith.

As I have said, reason fully confirms what we believe by faith. The problem is that you are not using reason correctly in your comments. In fact you give no rational counter-arguments to the rational arguments we explain to you.

 

[Latin]

… the only difference is that A died after going to confession and B died before going to confession.

No @oliver109, according to Catholic theology, there is crucial difference between person A and person B.
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I explain for you @oliver109 the difference step by step.

According to Catholic theology, for anyone to end up in heaven, in the chain of events, need two unmerited and undeserved gifts of God.
.
FIRST UNMERITED AND UNDESERVED GIFT IS: GOD’S GIFT OF SALVATION.

SECOND UNMERITED AND UNDESERVED GIFT IS: GOD’S GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of grace of Final Perseverance.

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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James akin

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43]

1. Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]”

CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. – Gives Infallible protection of the salvation of EVERY RECEIVER, there is no salvation without it. Infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

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THE DIFFERENCE BETWIN THE TWO

Person A received God’s gift of final perseverance, infallible protection of the salvation of every receiver.

Person B did not receive God’s gift of final perseverance, there is no salvation without it.
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God bless

 

[Gorgias]

I still find it impossible to fathom how a person can be up in Heaven and they ask God why their friend is in Hell and not themself despite both people having been great sinners, what is God going to say that sounds rational, that sounds comforting? That person A managed to die after going to confession while person B died just before going to confession?

You’re still framing it up wrong, I’m afraid. That’s not the consideration. If “person B” was contrite, and intended on making recourse to the sacrament, but died before he was able to, then we wouldn’t say that person B is in hell. God doesn’t play “gotcha” games with the rules.

In any case, if you even wish to play this game, then what you’re saying is that person B committed mortal sin and did not repent. This isn’t “my friend said a curse word and now he’s in hell”, but rather “my friend committed murder, or stole, or committed adultery and now he’s in hell”. Are you saying that this isn’t the definition of what merits hell?

Both A and B had repented, sinned, repented and so on, the only difference is that A died after going to confession and B died before going to confession. Both sinners had rejected Gods grace at various points in their life.

What they had done throughout their lives is less material to the question than what their state was at their death. Had they both repented? Or had B persisted obstinately in his sin? @Mmarco has it right – it’s the repentance that matters; if B died before he could get to confession (but he wanted it and intended it), that’s not what we’d say leads to condemnation.

 

[oliver109]

Why should their state at death matter so much? does that not make a mockery of any merit they accrued during their life? What i don’t get is that death should be a barrier for God, is he unable to offer them a chance to repent after death or is that one of the few things God cannot do and is helpless when faced with the sinners choice?

 

[Mmarco]

Why should their state at death matter so much? does that not make a mockery of any merit they accrued during their life? What i don’t get is that death should be a barrier for God, is he unable to offer them a chance to repent after death or is that one of the few things God cannot do and is helpless when faced with the sinners choice?

No, death is not a barrier for God. The point is that death (like everything else) does not occur by chance, but it is always part of God’s plan. God knows whether a person will never repent, even if he lives for thousands of years. People who die in a state of mortal sins are those who would have never repented, even if they would have lived for thousands of years. If God knows that a person will repent, He does not allow him to die in a state of mortal sin.

 

[oliver109]

God knows whether a person will never repent, even if he lives for thousands of years. People who die in a state of mortal sins are those who would have never repented, even if they would have lived for thousands of years.

Have you got any evidence to back that up? any quotes from scripture or official church teachings?

 

[Gorgias]

Why should their state at death matter so much?

Because that’s what Jesus taught, I suppose?


At issue is not whether you had ever sinned (we all do), but whether you die in your sins.

does that not make a mockery of any merit they accrued during their life?

Last month, at Sunday Mass, we heard a reading from Ezekiel (chapter 33). I would suggest you re-read it. In it, the prophet proclaims God’s standard: if you sin, and turn away from your sin, you’ll be saved. But, if you are just, and turn away from your justice and instead sin, your past justice will not save you.

So… why is it so? Because that’s God’s will. And no, it’s not a “mockery of past merit”; in fact, that’s precisely what the later sin is!

is he unable to offer them a chance to repent after death or is that one of the few things God cannot do and is helpless when faced with the sinners choice?

It’s not that God is “unable”; it’s that this is the way He chooses that we might merit salvation. Not by ultimately choosing against Him and appealing on past merit, but by ultimately choosing for Him, regardless of past sin.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

God knows whether a person will never repent, even if he lives for thousands of years. People who die in a state of mortal sins are those who would have never repented, even if they would have lived for thousands of years.

Have you got any evidence to back that up? any quotes from scripture or official church teachings?

Which point? The fact that God knows all what we would have decided in every possible situation, including situations which have never occurred?
See for example: Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Here Jesus is talking about a condition which was not realized; yet He knows the consequences of such condition if it was realized.

You may find information about this point in the Catholic Encyclopedia, chapter " Thomist and Molinist theories" here: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will

 

[Julius_Caesar]

But if this is the case, then who among us shall get there?

People who stop being evil.

 

[oliver109]

It just makes no sense to me that a person who has repented sometimes during life but happens to die after committing sin would never according to God have repented after death because they just loved sin too much.