At what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

[fhansen]

Deleted post

 

[whatistrue]

No I give them vision to prove that I am God

The Beatific Vision is what you get at the end, not what you get to “prove” anything. Do you really not get that if God Himself appeared to each human individually and explained everything in an easily understood manner, some would still refuse to believe?

All problem are solved.

If it were that simple, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

 

[whatistrue]

You cannot choose to not believe when there are sufficient reasons.

This is easily refuted. There are already sufficient reasons, yet many, possibly most, humans do not believe.

 

[Gorgias]

We cannot disbelieve when there are sufficient reason

So, according to you, either there is insufficient reason to believe in God now (and we’re back to my comments about Jesus and his demonstrations of his divinity), or the only way to believe in something is through personal experience.

Guess you don’t believe in black holes or the big bang, or George Washington, or Neandertal Man? After all… you don’t have any personal experience of them, either!

It should not be the end result.

That’s your personal opinion. Why do I – or, for that matter, God – have to accept it as truth?

So you don’t believe that people become mature as they age.

Sure I do. I just don’t believe that this makes them perfect decision makers.

I am saying that people make a stupid decision because they are not all-wise or to some degree they are stupid.

 

[STT]

False.

Not correct.

You cannot recognize the Truth if you are not willing to accept the Truth.

Of course, I can recognize the truth.

God has give us sufficient elements to know His existence, His infinite love and goodness, but if you are not willing to accept the Truth, you will never be convinced and nothing will be sufficient for you.

There is of course no sufficient reason for God’s existence now otherwise people would believe in God as they believe in their smartphone.

As I said, you would be unable to prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination, therefore also a beatific vision has to be accepted by faith as a vision of the true God.

I don’t think that Beatific Vision is hallucination. That is proof of God’s existence and it is enough to help you not to sin in Heaven. Faith on another hand is not sufficient to prevent you from sin.

You must understand that the existence and the goodness of God is the most fundamental truth and the knowledge of this truth is to be accepted by faith. If you try to deduce such truth from something else, you are implicitly considering that something else as a more fundamental truth, which is absurd. On the other hand, reason fully confirms what we believe by faith and provides solid and strong arguments supporting our beliefs.

Faith is not enough as there are Satanists in this world.

 

[STT]

The Beatific Vision is what you get at the end, not what you get to “prove” anything.

Without Beatific Vision you are in state of faith. Therefore, the Vision must be sufficient to convince you that there is a God.

Do you really not get that if God Himself appeared to each human individually and explained everything in an easily understood manner, some would still refuse to believe?

I don’t think so.

If it were that simple, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

You certainly didn’t get what I mean.

 

[STT]

This is easily refuted. There are already sufficient reasons, yet many, possibly most, humans do not believe.

Of course there is not sufficient reason for existence of God otherwise all intellectual beings strive in it.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Of course there is not sufficient reason for existence of God otherwise all intellectual beings strive in it.

Of course there is not sufficient reason for existence of climate change otherwise all intellectual beings would work to end it.

See how that argument falls? Some people look for reasons to falsify evidence. It doesn’t matter what you show them, they just won’t believe you.

 

[STT]

So, according to you, either there is insufficient reason to believe in God now (and we’re back to my comments about Jesus and his demonstrations of his divinity), or the only way to believe in something is through personal experience.

Jesus apparently couldn’t convince Jews. So why I should believe. Moreover, Jesus is not God according to all Bibles. I had a discussion with a person who truly studied the Bibles and he gave me the list of Bibles in which Jesus is a normal man. I can ask for more details if you are interested. I forgot the list of Bibles in which Jesus is introduced as God (John I am sure) and those that Jesus is introduced as a normal man.

Guess you don’t believe in black holes or the big bang, or George Washington, or Neandertal Man? After all… you don’t have any personal experience of them , either!

I didn’t say so.

That’s your personal opinion. Why do I – or, for that matter, God – have to accept it as truth?

God does it at the end. Doesn’t He? So what is the catch in holding people in the state of doubt?

Sure I do. I just don’t believe that this makes them perfect decision makers.

In the end, they become when they meet God in person, Beatific Vision. Isn’t that correct?

So you agree or disagree?

 

[STT]

Of course there is not sufficient reason for existence of climate change otherwise all intellectual beings would work to end it.

See how that argument falls? Some people look for reasons to falsify evidence. It doesn’t matter what you show them, they just won’t believe you.

If God is all knowing then He can falsify all wrong reasons. There would be no room to escape.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

If God is all knowing then He can falsify all wrong reasons. There would be no room to escape.

See, you’d think that about all things that are true. I feel you hold a rather naïve view of human acceptance of that which is true.

 

[STT]

See, you’d think that about all things that are true. I feel you hold a rather naïve view of human acceptance of that which is true.

I don’t think so.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I don’t think so.

Your statements seem to imply it.

 

[STT]

Your statements seem to imply it.

As you say!

 

[Socrates92]

But now we’re forced to conclude that the existence of hell is justified even if there’s nobody in heaven.

We’ve reached the Repugnant Conclusion, hell is preferable to heaven

How did you get from “Hell is justified” to “Hell is preferable”?

 

[whatistrue]

Of course there is not sufficient reason for existence of God otherwise all intellectual beings strive in it.

There is more than sufficient reason for believing in God, and there is more than sufficient reason to believe that the Earth is approximately spherical. Yet there are still people who don’t believe it:

The Flat Earth Society

You certainly didn’t get what I mean.

I most certainly do get what you mean, I simply deny that it is correct, and have provided evidence to refute it, yet you only continue to gratuitously assert the same position.

 

[goout]

Why is existence justified? Does anyone deserve to be? Did you choose to be?
What about heaven? Is it justifiable that anyone should experience the bliss of eternal love?
Who is accountable for it!!!

 

[Neithan]

You’ve been on these forums longer than I have and you still think that’s an adequate analogy? I don’t understand how someone can have such simplistic misconceptions after so many years.

Hell is not the torture chamber in the basement of a luxury hotel. It’s the natural result of peoples’ free choices to a lesser good, carried on indefinitely.

 

[goout]

CS Lewis addressed this issue as well as anyone probably can with “God in the dock” (which is not a book itself but the title of a collection of essays. God in the dock being the idea that God is on trial to justify himself for…)

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

God has give us sufficient elements to know His existence, His infinite love and goodness, but if you are not willing to accept the Truth, you will never be convinced and nothing will be sufficient for you.

There is of course no sufficient reason for God’s existence now otherwise people would believe in God as they believe in their smartphone.

You must understand that accepting the existence of God has strong implications in our life while accepting the existence of a smartphone has not. This is the reason why some people do not understand the validity of the rational arguments supporting the existence of God; it’s because they are not willing to accept all the implications that the existence of God would have in their life. When a truth has strong implications in our life, people often do not recognize it as long as they are not willing to accept all its implications. This is a well known psychological process called “denial” or “abnegation”; it is a psychological defense mechanism, in which a person rejects a fact, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.
I think that atheism is a typical example of denial.

Mmarco:

As I said, you would be unable to prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination, therefore also a beatific vision has to be accepted by faith as a vision of the true God.

I don’t think that Beatific Vision is hallucination. That is proof of God’s existence and it is enough to help you not to sin in Heaven. Faith on another hand is not sufficient to prevent you from sin.

The fact that you say “I don’t think” proves my point, i.e. you are unable to prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination.
In fact, we know that hallucinations are possible, therefore you cannot prove that a beatific vision is not an hallucination, you can only think/believe it is not, therefore you need faith to believe it.

Mmarco:

You must understand that the existence and the goodness of God is the most fundamental truth and the knowledge of this truth is to be accepted by faith. If you try to deduce such truth from something else, you are implicitly considering that something else as a more fundamental truth, which is absurd. On the other hand, reason fully confirms what we believe by faith and provides solid and strong arguments supporting our beliefs.

Faith is not enough as there are Satanists in this world.

Your comment has nothing to do with what I wrote; please try to read it more carefully.