At what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

[rossum]

Hell is not the torture chamber in the basement of a luxury hotel. It’s the natural result of peoples’ free choices to a lesser good, carried on indefinitely.

And their free choices result in their eternal separation from you. Since you love them as yourself, that separation causes you suffering.

If a child rejects her parents and goes to live in a different city, refusing to communicate, would that make her parents happy?

 

[Mmarco]

If a child rejects her parents and goes to live in a different city, refusing to communicate, would that make her parents happy?

When the parents realize that the child has irreversely and definetely chosen to refuse them, they should understand that they have to move on and live their life without her.

 

[rossum]

That was not what I asked. I asked “would that make her parents happy?” I did not ask what they would or should do.

 

[Gorgias]

And their free choices result in their eternal separation from you. Since you love them as yourself, that separation causes you suffering.

Unhappiness, perhaps. But… suffering? Obviously, you’ve never forced an adolescent to be somewhere he doesn’t want to be, and be subjected to his constant unhappiness. Now, that causes a person suffering!

That was not what I asked. I asked “would that make her parents happy?” I did not ask what they would or should do.

Would it make them happier to chain the child in the house and force him to be in their presence?

 

[Mmarco]

That was not what I asked. I asked “would that make her parents happy?” I did not ask what they would or should do.

Probably I did not expressed clearly what I meant. If their parents have realized that their daughter has become an adult who has irreversely and definetely chosen to refuse them, they will move on and live happily their life without her. Children are not a property of parents; they are free people and parents must respect their decision, once they have become adults.
Obviously, in our earthly life, we can never be sure that a decision is irreversible, so your example does not describe correctly the situation of the souls in heaven, who can be sure about the irreversibility of the decision made by the souls in hell. You must understand that in heaven the perspective is totally different.

 

[Mmarco]

And their free choices result in their eternal separation from you. Since you love them as yourself, that separation causes you suffering.

Christ has never gave us the comandment to love the souls in hell or to love demons. The souls in hell are no longer our neighbour. They have irreversely chosen evil, they have become evil themselves, we must not love evil, we must reject evil.

 

[goout]

rossum:

And their free choices result in their eternal separation from you. Since you love them as yourself, that separation causes you suffering.

Unhappiness, perhaps. But… suffering? Obviously, you’ve never forced an adolescent to be somewhere he doesn’t want to be, and be subjected to his constant unhappiness. Now, that causes a person suffering!

That was not what I asked. I asked “would that make her parents happy?” I did not ask what they would or should do.

Would it make them happier to chain the child in the house and force him to be in their presence?

Yep. Is why love and responsibility go together. If you rob someone of responsibility, you rob them of the capacity to love. And God is love.

 

[oliver109]

They have irreversely chosen evil, they have become evil themselves

How have they become evil when in their lives on earth they were no worse than other sinners who happened to die in a state of grace? Why should the timing of death make such a massive difference over whether someone is evil or good for eternity?

 

[Gorgias]

Christ has never gave us the comandment to love the souls in hell or to love demons. The souls in hell are no longer our neighbour.

I’m not certain that this holds up to scrutiny.

Aquinas would say that, witnessing the souls in hell, the souls in heaven are able to recognize the justice of God having been carried out. There is goodness in that.

How have they become evil when in their lives on earth they were no worse than other sinners who happened to die in a state of grace?

One doesn’t merely “happen to die in a state of grace.” This implies a certain passivity in our own life and our ability to choose. Those who die in a state of grace have chosen to do so. Those who die unrepentant – which is what you’re referring to by those who lose eternal salvation – have chosen to not repent.

(Those who repent but are unable to get to confession prior to death aren’t in the latter group.)

 

[goout]

Mmarco:

They have irreversely chosen evil, they have become evil themselves

How have they become evil when in their lives on earth they were no worse than other sinners who happened to die in a state of grace? Why should the timing of death make such a massive difference over whether someone is evil or good for eternity?

No small amount of mystery there. I think the point is that we should “pray as though everything depended on God and act as though everything depended on you”. St Ignatius.

 

[oliver109]

One doesn’t merely “happen to die in a state of grace.” This implies a certain passivity in our own life and our ability to choose.

That’s just generalizing, there are so many different personality types out there, some people are passive, some people are well organised, should someone be condemned eternally because they were passive and unprepared? i hope not as it seems to show a bit of a lack of mercy. Those who die unrepentant are probably no different in their day to day lives to those who died repentant, unless they lived truly wicked lives which is unlikely.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

should someone be condemned eternally because they were passive and unprepared?

Uh, yeah. Those who choose to live passive lives and are unprepared for the coming of the Kingdom were given ample warning by Christ about the consequences of such a life. They chose their fate.

 

[goout]

Gorgias:

One doesn’t merely “happen to die in a state of grace.” This implies a certain passivity in our own life and our ability to choose.

That’s just generalizing, there are so many different personality types out there, some people are passive, some people are well organised, should someone be condemned eternally because they were passive and unprepared? i hope not as it seems to show a bit of a lack of mercy. Those who die unrepentant are probably no different in their day to day lives to those who died repentant, unless they lived truly wicked lives which is unlikely.

So assuming you know this, you have decisions to make. Right? Morality is not hypothetical but rather real. So we can speculate all we want, and we are still left with choosing moment to moment, day to day.

 

[Fauken]

That’s just generalizing, there are so many different personality types out there, some people are passive, some people are well organised, should someone be condemned eternally because they were passive and unprepared?

Everyone gets as many chances as are needed for them in life to repent. Whether or not they make good of those opportunities is on them. If one final chance was needed for a sinner to repent before death, they’d be given that chance.

i hope not as it seems to show a bit of a lack of mercy.

Hardly. It’s just how you perceive it.

 

[oliver109]

Being passive is by no means the worse sin unless the passive person relishes in being passive and is unapologetic about it, the passive person who goes to confession, goes to communion etc but still occasionally stumbles should by no means be condemned.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

They have irreversely chosen evil, they have become evil themselves

How have they become evil when in their lives on earth they were no worse than other sinners who happened to die in a state of grace? Why should the timing of death make such a massive difference over whether someone is evil or good for eternity?

The problem is not the timing of death.
God gives everybody the possibility to repent and He talks to everybody’s conscience and heart. Those who do not repent, even at the point of death, are those who irreversely choose evil.

 

[Gorgias]

should someone be condemned eternally because they were passive and unprepared?

You’ve read the Gospels, right? Jesus explicitly warns us not to be unprepared! In light of that warning, not being ready means “I didn’t care enough to prepare.”

So, yeah… if you were warned, and you didn’t act, then it’s not a question of “oops, I didn’t get around to it” so much as “oops… it wasn’t important enough to get around to”.

Those who die unrepentant are probably no different in their day to day lives to those who died repentant

Except for the fact that they didn’t repent. That’s kinda an important point.

the passive person who goes to confession, goes to communion etc but still occasionally stumbles should by no means be condemned.

Right. And, if you’re calling these “the unrepentant”, then you’re making an error.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

the passive person who goes to confession, goes to communion etc but still occasionally stumbles

Such actions do not suggest a passive person. Even making some preparation, regardless of the degree to which it is made, is preparation. Passive people do not confess and do not avail themselves to the mercy of the sacraments.

 

[oliver109]

They may be unrepentant in that some days they feel repentant, on other days they feel unrepentant, humans are complex, i think many people have too simple a view of humanity.

 

[Gorgias]

They may be unrepentant in that some days they feel repentant, on other days they feel unrepentant

That’s the whole story: sin, repent, be forgiven. Rinse and repeat.