At what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

[ColoradoCatholic]

Hell is just, its a result of our Free Will. Hell is for those who want nothing to do with God, and God respects their choice…if they want nothing to do with Him, he will let them live completely isolated from His presence.

Heaven is the default plan that God wants for you. Hell is the opposite…its the plan of those who love themselves more than God.

God is just because he gives you the choice to pick whatever you want, and in this life if you figure out that “your plan” (not you specifically, the general “your”) isn’t so great…well He also is completely merciful and will accept you lovingly back. Parable of the Prodigal Son.

 

[bruisedreed]

@Vico, @Inbonum, and @ColoradoCatholic, I believe these things too. But if I’m understanding @lelinator correctly (and please correct me if I’m wrong) the issue is this: how would heaven be heavenly knowing that your brother or sister is in hell? How would you be able to enjoy yourself?

Suppose you have a son or daughter like the prodigal son who is always rejecting your offer of love. As a parent wouldn’t you always have at least a constant a pang of sorrow knowing your own flesh isn’t with you in happiness?

 

[Inbonum]

how would heaven be heavenly knowing that your brother or sister is in hell? How would you be able to enjoy yourself?

Because in Heaven there is no choice anymore and soul is united with God’s will. You come to final place you chose. God’s will is not for someone to be in Hell but God respects free will and choices of people so what is done is done. And I believe that union with God’s will and Beatific Vision is exactly what preserves someone to be sad in Heaven.

How Can We be Happy on Earth Knowing There are People in Hell?

Perhaps we can shed some light on this issue if we consider the knowledge that the blessed in heaven have of the damned. The blessed see God as he is in the Bea...

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[rossum]

the issue is this: how would heaven be heavenly knowing that your brother or sister is in hell? How would you be able to enjoy yourself?

Suppose you have a son or daughter like the prodigal son who is always rejecting your offer of love. As a parent wouldn’t you always have at least a constant a pang of sorrow knowing your own flesh isn’t with you in happiness?

The Buddha defined suffering as:

“The Noble Truth of Suffering, monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering; separation from the loved is suffering; not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering.” (emphasis added)

In heaven there is eternal separation from those that you love who are in hell. In the Buddhist definition, that makes heaven a place of suffering.

 

[lelinator]

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.
C. S. Lewis, Great Divorce

Hell is just, its a result of our Free Will. Hell is for those who want nothing to do with God, and God respects their choice…if they want nothing to do with Him, he will let them live completely isolated from His presence.

Heaven is the default plan that God wants for you. Hell is the opposite…its the plan of those who love themselves more than God.

Both understandable answers when considering the Catholic perspective on free will and salvation, but…

Couldn’t God have infused creation with so much grace that everyone would’ve chosen to love Him?

It would seem that the reasonable answer that question is yes, He could’ve, but this would’ve interfered with our free will. So God didn’t do that.

This means that God had to choose what level of grace to infuse creation with, and subsequently, how many people would choose to love Him, and how many people wouldn’t.

Thus it would seem that God had to answer the same question that I’m asking now…at what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

 

[Inbonum]

Aquinas explains it better than I do
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm
Edit: we will probably find all answers on Judgment Day. Now we have just partial knowledge. I do not know answers on all your questions but I think there are great saints who explain us what can be explained.

 

[fhansen]

I admit I’ve never been able to take this approach. If I’m wrong, please help me out too. It just doesn’t sit right with my personality and my understanding of the Gospel. How can we say we are in the presence of God if we don’t love our neighbor as our own flesh? I can’t pretend to love God if I don’t love the creature he was crucified for. And if my own sibling in Christ, my own flesh, is suffering in hell, even if it’s their choice, how can I not be moved with boundless sadness?

I find this a very difficult question.

I agree that it’s difficult. And I think also that we’d have say that God still loves those in hell.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It just doesn’t sit right with my personality and my understanding of the Gospel.

Our understanding and “personality” here on earth is human and limited.

When and if we make it to Heaven we will likely understand better.

For now, you can pray to save sinners in order to try to keep as many out of Hell as possible. If we all pray enough, perhaps most of the people who’d otherwise go there will be saved.

The hardest thing for people seems to be accepting things God does without necessarily having an explanation for everything that’s acceptable to the person asking “Why?”

 

[goout]

Have you defined what you mean by justified yet?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So your answer is, that the required number of people is one…so long as that one person is you.

And the Three Persons of the Trinity, and at minimum all official saints of the Church, because they’ll all be there too.

That room suddenly got crowded! I hope God booked the whole floor.

 

[goout]

The question is a non sequitur.
It’s like asking if the ocean is justified if only one person swims in it. It simply is, and something that exists doesn’t beg for justification.

 

[bruisedreed]

Thank you so much for your answer. I believe in what the Church teaches. But sometimes people make it to seem that these things are just simple and make all the sense in the world, when in fact there are deep questions that are very troubling. We can accept the teachings of the Church while at the same time continuing to be honest about the fact that we have not, as the People of God, come to a mature understanding of the issues involved.

@inbonum Thank you for the link to Aquinas. Aquinas believed that part of the joys of heaven will be the witness of God’s justice enacted in the lot of the damned. I’ll meditate on this much more, but I have so far found myself tending to disagree with the Angelic Doctor on this point. Or not so much “disagreeing”, as thinking that perhaps he did not have the complete picture, but just a part of it.

 

[lelinator]

The Buddha defined suffering as:

“The Noble Truth of Suffering, monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering; separation from the loved is suffering ; not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering.” (emphasis added)

In my profile, under religion, you’ll find “Stoic” listed second, this is because I’ve come to appreciate all that I’ve gained through both my suffering, and the suffering of others. Not that I would wish it upon them, or upon myself, but rather, that my existence and my character are far nobler for our having endured them. So for that reason, even suffering has merit.

But that being said, hell, to me, is gratuitous suffering with nothing to be gained but some vague concept of justice. How is it just for people to suffer with nothing to be gained from it?

 

[lelinator]

Have you defined what you mean by justified yet?

Nope…would you like to offer some insight?

 

[lelinator]

And the Three Persons of the Trinity, and at minimum all official saints of the Church, because they’ll all be there too.

That room suddenly got crowded! I hope God booked the whole floor.

So you’ve upped the number a bit, but theoretically speaking, would one person in heaven justify billions of people in hell?

 

[John_Martin]

Hell is the fire of the presence of God, as seen from the position of not wanting to enter into union with God because you are afraid you will lose your being, your life, in such an infinite blaze of seeming destructive force, yet it is delight and life to those who walk into the union with God (remember how Moses’ face shone brightly when he returned down the mountain to us from being with the LORD, and how Jesus shone bright as the sun to us when we were on Horeb with him and Moses and Elijah?).

Hell is the outer darkness around the fire of Heaven, which will no longer let the darkness alone.

 

[Inbonum]

but I have so far found myself tending to disagree with the Angelic Doctor on this point. Or not so much “disagreeing”, as thinking that perhaps he did not have the complete picture, but just a part of it.

Well Aquinas concluded things by logical arguments. He didn’t have any complete picture because he is human even though he is in Heaven now. You cannot expect from anyone on earth to give you perfect ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer to these questions.
I think that his answers best explained this topic.

 

[lelinator]

The question is a non sequitur.
It’s like asking if the ocean is justified if only one person swims in it. It simply is, and something that exists doesn’t beg for justification.

Except it’s not that hell simply exists, with no need to justify why it exists, God had to choose to create it. And considering Hell’s suffering, God had to conclude that such suffering was justified.

 

[bruisedreed]

I disagree with you here, in a way.

Every generation, even every person, deserves a fresh and creative presentation of the Gospel, because the Gospel is ever new and creative. Aquinas was given to us by God for our instruction, not as an invitation to stop inquiring further. It’s the Catholic way: keeping asking, keep wondering, keep searching, keep challenging, but always keep the faith. My opinion, at least.

 

[Inbonum]

Every generation, even every person, deserves a fresh and creative presentation of the Gospel, because the Gospel is ever new and creative. Aquinas was given to God for our instruction, not as an invitation to stop inquiring further. It’s the Catholic way: keeping asking, keep wondering, keep searching, keep challenging, but always keep the faith. My opinion, at least.

And whole message of Gospel is this

37 Jesus said to him, 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second resembles it: You must love your neighbour as yourself.

Aquinas helped my faith alot, answered many questions I have and he always goes by reasonable conclusions.
I agree that we should ask and seek but some questions don’t have perfect and complete answer in this life.

We can conclude by what Church with saints say.

But at any rate, the Catechism of the Council of Trent , referencing the Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas Aquinas, lists these four “characteristics” or “gifts” that will be communicated to the blessed in heaven:
1) Subtility – This gift entails the absolute subordination of the body to the soul. So radical is this subordination that it will empower us to be able to pass through a wall as Jesus did in the Upper Room in John 20:19-20 , while possessing flesh and bone just as he did as well. Remember: the disciples were gathered together in fear behind locked doors, after the resurrection of Christ, and before they had seen the risen Lord. Jesus suddenly appeared in their midst, though the doors remained locked. He passed right through the doors! Yet, as is revealed in Luke 24:39 , in a parallel account of this same event, also after the resurrection, Jesus said to the apostles, “… handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
2) Agility – In Acts 1:9 , Jesus ascended up to heaven right before the very eyes of the apostles. And he didn’t even need rockets like R2D2! In fact, according to St. Thomas, the blessed in heaven, even after receiving their bodies in the resurrection, will be able to travel at the speed of thought, or in the “wink of an eye,” as St. Thomas says it, to any distance. Star Wars ain’t got nothin’ that can even compare with what awaits those who are faithful to Christ!
3) Impassibility – In simple terms, this means the blessed in heaven cannot suffer and cannot die (see Rev. 21:4 ). Indeed the bodies of the blessed will not only be immortal, but no sickness or any imperfection will be possible. We will not even so much as be able to stub a toe, even if we wanted to! Not that we would want to! But you get my drift!
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