At what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

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4) Glory (or as the Roman Catechism calls it: “Brightness”) – The blessed in heaven will be glorified like Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Rooted in Jesus’ own words, “… the righteous will shine like the sun,” in Matthew 13:43 , the Church teaches the blessed will shine with the glory of God so brilliant that it is believed by some that we on earth could not stand to even behold one of the blessed in heaven if he were revealed in all of his glory!
If you take the Marian apparitions for example, our Lady does not appear in all of her glory. She appears in a form that the seers can handle and relate to.
But at any rate, we do catch a glimpse of the glory that awaits us in the Transfiguration where Jesus’ face “shone like the sun” ( Matt. 17:2 ). This text not only reveals Christ’s divinity, but the glory of humanity transformed by divinity! It reveals, in that sense, what awaits our humanity. “The just shall shine like the sun.”
What is Heaven? | Catholic Answers
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bruisedreed said:
… how would heaven be heavenly knowing that your brother or sister is in hell? How would you be able to enjoy yourself?
…
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The glory of the Holy Trinity surpasses all else. The resurrected in heaven are transformed with glorified bodies with the Beatific Vision (variable based upon merits), so understanding is different than that of the earthly life before resurrection. The suffering of those without the Beatific Vision is variable based upon their deeds, and even has been presented for some (such as unbaptized infants) as having no pain but a state of peace.

As the angels:

Matthew 22
30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
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whatistrue said:
And if God concluded that it is, then it is.

Philosophy questions on the Internet, or our human thoughts about it, notwithstanding.
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But we are an inquisitive creature, and this is a philosophy forum, so if not here and now, then where and when?

In the end we may indeed be forced to leave it at that, it is what it is, and we are what we are, so we wonder why.
 
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lelinator said:
But we are an inquisitive creature, and this is a philosophy forum, so if not here and now, then where and when?
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I am not saying that you can’t ask, but I don’t believe that the answer is as complicated as you appear to think. At least the way the question was asked.
 
whatistrue said:
I am not saying that you can’t ask, but I don’t believe that the answer is as complicated as you appear to think. At least the way the question was asked.
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So can you answer it, at what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

Indeed I could’ve phrased the question differently, but the idea was to make people think.
 
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What you read is my answer. If God created it, that is its justification for existence.
 
I hear you @Vico. The Holy Trinity does not merely surpass all else but is the only thing that really suffices at all.

My only thought was this. The ancient Greeks, and many others who have since them and before them contemplated the Divine Majesty, focused strictly on the relation between the one contemplating and the object of that contemplation (God).

But in Catholicism something new was introduced in the history of humankind’s journey: love for God was inseparable from love of people; the enjoyment of God’s presence and majesty was inseparable from the enjoyment of the presence of the ones He loves.

“This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.” If I love my brother, don’t I want him to be where I am?
 
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lelinator said:
Couldn’t God have infused creation with so much grace that everyone would’ve chosen to love Him?
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Anything definite, as in definitely with no other alternative, is by definition not “Free” Free Will implies that there are a minimum of 2 possible paths.
lelinator said:
This means that God had to choose what level of grace to infuse creation with, and subsequently, how many people would choose to love Him, and how many people wouldn’t.
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Again, we have free will, God provides sufficient grace for everyone no matter the circumstances to choose Him. But to answer your question: I would say just one person.

Hell and the powers of evil are not equitable to God’s goodness. Its not like we live in a dualistic universe. God, who is Love, is Goodness, is infinitely greater than any evil that could come about from the creatures that choose evil…no matter how many.

My Opinion*

therefore I see it as a simple fact that even one person experiencing an infinity of Goodness with God in Heaven is worth it to put all the rest in Hell…but God is so merciful that He wills all go to Heaven, and I think most will experience Heaven. Not all, but most eventually. After purgatory is over.
 
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The required minimum number of people is zero. Heaven is where God lives and would exist even if there were no humans.

Ignoring the fact that hell already existed for the fallen Angel’s before humans came along, the minimum required is also zero. It is the alternate a person chooses over being with God, but nobody has to choose it. But, it must exist in order to choose it. Though one could argue that God could say He will make it when the first person chooses to go there.
 
lelinator said:
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goout:
Have you defined what you mean by justified yet?
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Nope…would you like to offer some insight?
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No.You are asking the question why would I define the terms for you.
What do you mean by justified, and why would the concept even apply here?
 
lelinator said:
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goout:
The question is a non sequitur.
It’s like asking if the ocean is justified if only one person swims in it. It simply is, and something that exists doesn’t beg for justification.
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Except it’s not that hell simply exists, with no need to justify why it exists, God had to choose to create it. And considering Hell’s suffering, God had to conclude that such suffering was justified.
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Is this just another denial of human free will?
 
whatistrue said:
What you read is my answer. If God created it, that is its justification for existence.
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That’s a perfectly acceptable answer, but…

God is love, and compassion, and justice…and so to say that hell is justified by the simple fact that God created it, is to say that the existence of hell is justified by those other things as well.

But how can this be? How can hell be justified by love and compassion?

It would seem almost that we’re forced into the Repugnant Conclusion, that the existence of an eternity with hell, is better than an eternity without it.

It seems counterintuitive, and yet, that’s supposedly what God created.

Hell is justified by love… how can this be true?
 
bruisedreed said:
… If I love my brother, don’t I want him to be where I am?
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If you love all as brother then you also love justice for all.

There is a dogma of faith that God desires all to be saved, but this is a wish since God has positively willed to angels and mankind free will which allows rejection of saving grace. Now “the contemplation of truth assuages pain or sorrow” per St. Thomas Aquinas.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologiae,
I answer that, As stated above (I-II:3:5), the greatest of all pleasures consists in the contemplation of truth. Now every pleasure assuages pain as stated above (Article 1): hence the contemplation of truth assuages pain or sorrow, and the more so, the more perfectly one is a lover of wisdom. And therefore in the midst of tribulations men rejoice in the contemplation of Divine things and of future Happiness, according to James 1:2: “My brethren, count it all joy, when you shall fall into divers temptations”: and, what is more, even in the midst of bodily tortures this joy is found; as the “martyr Tiburtius, when he was walking barefoot on the burning coals, said: Methinks, I walk on roses, in the name of Jesus Christ.” [Cf. Dominican Breviary, August 11th, commemoration of St. Tiburtius.]
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https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2038.htm#article4

In the Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil we have:
For the repose and forgiveness of the soul of your servant (Name/s) in a place of light from which grief and mourning have been driven away. Grant the rest, our God.

And grant them reset where the light of your face190 watches over them.
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190 Psalm 4:7
 
lelinator said:
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whatistrue:
What you read is my answer. If God created it, that is its justification for existence.
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That’s a perfectly acceptable answer, but…

God is love, and compassion, and justice…and so to say that hell is justified by the simple fact that God created it, is to say that the existence of hell is justified by those other things as well.

But how can this be? How can hell be justified by love and compassion?

It would seem almost that we’re forced into the Repugnant Conclusion, that the existence of an eternity with hell, is better than an eternity without it.

It seems counterintuitive, and yet, that’s supposedly what God created.

Hell is justified by love… how can this be true?
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You still haven’t defined what you mean by justified, and you haven’t justified your usage of it in this context. 🙂

The word simply doesn’t apply here.
 
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Thank you very much for the edifying words. I’m really grateful. I will pray on this. Thank you!
 
fhansen said:
Hell is simply the rejection of God-and the consequence of living totally apart from Him. From the big picture Adam rejected God in Eden but was given a reprieve, so to speak, with which to sort of work this thing out, his choice, having the possibility of “wising up” here on earth which is sort of half way between heaven and hell, where we experience life apart from God-and the evil that prevails when goodness does not totally overwhelm and exclude it. Here we decide by our choices and actions which one we want.
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Adam disobey God. He didn’t reject God. No intellectual person choose Hell over Heaven.
 
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