At what level does the existence of heaven justify the existence of hell?

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STT said:
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii:
I used to think that people committed sins because they didn’t “know better”, and if it were all just Explained To Them they would fall in line.
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It is not matter of explaining. People need to witness Heaven and Hell so they can choose.
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
But the fact is, people are self centered and unwilling to delay gratification. If there is a popular vice, people will twist them self into a pretzel to justify it.
And power and revenge feel good .

So no, it’s not usually a knowledge deficit.
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That because some people have specific nature. Sometimes it is very difficult to go against your nature.
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People choose poorly all.the.time. even while knowing the consequences.
People frequently choose inferior goods for immediate gratification.
Still: consequences.
So seeing hell will not stop sin. We see the foreshadowing of it in this life, and we still make bad choices with full knowledge and consent.
 
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I’m reluctant to post on here as I find this site sketchy, but I will because the question is so good and one that I, as a practicing Catholic, have spent much time pondering and praying over. You can check my thread history and one of the first post I started was the acceptance there is a hell.

The conclusion I’ve drawn is that it comes down to an atheist lament which is, “because I end up in hell, how can you ever be happy?” OK, sounds harsh but let me explain. First, I don’t believe all atheists end up in hell and I also don’t know what the requirements are to end up in hell.

The first assumption the atheist in that quote is making is that Evil does not exist. I’ve come to accept, very late in life, that Evil does exist. So, for Heaven to be Heaven could Evil exist there? Think about it, so much of the problems in this world are caused by Evil that were the Evil to go to Heaven they would bring those problems there. Hence, endangering the peace and well-being of many people in Heaven who have already been victimized. So, clearly there has to be a cut off point where some people don’t belong in Heaven for Heaven to continue to be Heaven. Again, I don’t know what that cut-off point is.

The second assumption that, that atheist makes in that quote is the question of personal accountability. While the atheist would more than likely never be happy or respect me for the path I take, I am supposed to feel guilty for the path they are taking. That’s uneven, and a double standard. In my innocence I would want more for the atheist, but I’m aware that there is nothing to little I can do to change their decisions including all their ramifications. Again, this is even if it is present in my own family. I have to use the serenity prayer to change the things I can, to accept the things that I cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference.

There is more, but I will see if you respond. Ultimately, I am a practicing Catholic rebuilding my relationship with God after I came to accept there is a Hell. Through prayers for Wisdom and Discernment, I’ve come to accept that while God is loving, merciful; there is nothing he nor I can do about the free will of a soul who delves into Evil.

If this post reached you, anyone on this forum, do what I have been doing and pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet daily. Right now is a time of a lot of Evil in my opinion. So, pray for the Sinner for the mistakes they are making and to repent and atone.

 
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
I’m not sure I’d say “need to”.
There are plenty of saints who walked by faith and not by sight.
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People believe on all sort of different things. How one can justify one over another? What if there is no God, or if God is Evil, or neutral?
 
whatistrue said:
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lelinator:
I accept that whatever definition you choose to give the word…is correct.
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Then your initial question is essentially pointless.
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Correct. If the OP’s position is to simply shoot down all other definitions and explanations, then all we have are assertions.
An argument assumes taking a substantial position that claims meaning.
 
rossum said:
In the basement of the hotel, some of those neighbours, whom you love, are being horribly tortured.
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Wrong characterization. The Church teaches that the primary punishment of hell is ‘separation from God’. So, not “horribly tortured”, although I recognize that this is the hinge of your argument.

In fact, if we wanted to use your construct, we’d have to frame it up like this: “in the basement of the hotel, some of those neighbors, whom you love, are receiving the reward which they requested by virtue of their actions: literally, they aren’t receiving the amenities you are, because they rejected them in advance. Some of these who rejected the amenities may even be your own family. Are you happy in your luxury hotel room?”

See how different it sounds when you characterize it accurately?
😉
 
STT said:
People believe on all sort of different things. How one can justify one over another? What if there is no God, or if God is Evil, or neutral?
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I’m trying to understand what you’re driving at.
Are you a Catholic or Christian?
Are you trying to find out if there is a God at all?
 
whatistrue said:
No, I mean that some people will choose to sin regardless of whether they believe in, or even had a vision of, Heaven or Hell. People (as a group) do things that they know for a fact are bad for them every day.
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Yes, we all sin when we are overwhelmed. We are finite.
 
STT said:
Adam disobey God. He didn’t reject God. No intellectual person choose Hell over Heaven.
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Disobedience is “rejection of God”. Very literally, it is a choosing of hell over heaven.
 
goout said:
People choose poorly all.the.time. even while knowing the consequences.
People frequently choose inferior goods for immediate gratification.
Still: consequences.
So seeing hell will not stop sin. We see the foreshadowing of it in this life, and we still make bad choices with full knowledge and consent.
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That is not correct. I don’t think if one witness God then s/he sin. Remember, Beatific Vision.
 
Gorgias said:
Disobedience is “rejection of God”. Very literally, it is a choosing of hell over heaven.
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Well, yes, if you witness God, Beatific Vision. Adam apparently had not witness God.
 
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STT said:
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Gorgias:
Disobedience is “rejection of God”. Very literally, it is a choosing of hell over heaven.
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Well, yes, if you witness God, Beatific Vision. Adam apparently had not witness God.
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No… even without the Beatific Vision, the act of disobeying God is precisely the act of rejecting Him. It may be forgiven, of course, but it’s “rejection.”
 
STT said:
Should we punished because we have specific nature?
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We choose the punishment. God gives us the ability to escape our fallen nature. If we don’t, it’s our fault, not His.
 
whatistrue said:
Which is after we die and are in Heaven.
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Yes, my point is if people have such a experience then they choose God, at least within your teaching. So the question is what is the point of not giving the people the Vision?
 
RepetantCatholic said:
I’m reluctant to post on here as I find this site sketchy, but I will because the question is so good and one that I, as a practicing Catholic, have spent much time pondering and praying over. You can check my thread history and one of the first post I started was the acceptance there is a hell.
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Finally a lucid voice.

The question is essentially this. God could’ve chosen to infuse creation with so much grace that everyone would’ve chosen to love Him. But the existence of free will is so invaluable that it would’ve been outside of God’s nature to do that, to create a world with no free will.

But how did God reconcile the fact that infusing the world with less of His grace would mean that some people would inevitably end up in hell?

How many…is too many? If just one person chooses Heaven, is that enough to justify a billion people in Hell?
 
lelinator said:
But how did God reconcile the fact that infusing the world with less of His grace would mean that some people would inevitably end up in hell?
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Some people will always end up in hell. God gives us enough grace for each person to choose heaven if they want to. The only defect is us, not God’s amount of grace.

Your premise is incorrect, therefore your argument falls.
 
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