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Cracker_Mom
Guest
Without an annulment, separation is what you get as Catholics.
However, a civil divorce protects the legal rights of those who are separated.Check the Catechism or with your parish priest.
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However, a civil divorce protects the legal rights of those who are separated.Check the Catechism or with your parish priest.
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whatevergirl
Guest
Marriage is really about three beings…the wife, husband and most important God. Not the wife, husband, the husband’s lover, and God. I think the OP has done an outstanding job of showing patience and humility towards her husband in a most difficult circumstance…a circumstance he wishes to keep going. I don’t believe we are called to remain in a marriage, when a spouse takes a lover, and doesn’t end that relationship–that is not a marriage, really. It takes more than the wife to keep the marriage together, and while I would never tell someone to go for a divorce, it can be necessary to separate, because of abuse or chronic infidelity…let alone infidelity that shows no end in sight.
I hear what you’re saying, but I think this situation is vastly different than just ‘normal’ difficulties and challeges that a couple endures in a marriage.
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Cracker_Mom
Guest
Can’t speak for others, but celibacy & being employed are OK options for me,too.
It’s wonderful if folks can reconcile.God bless them.But this isn’t 1850 or something.You can support yourself as a single woman.You have choices out there.
If you happen to be in an abusive situation, get help.If you can straighten things out & seek counseling at your church do so.I’m all for marriage, but it’s supposed to be a grace giving sacrament, not the last ditch option before destitution.
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Lerin
Guest
Which is why I keep getting annoyed by the “new” answers on this thread that don’t seem to have read anything but the title line before answering!
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EvelynEVF
Guest
BMB, I have a feeling your oldest will talk to your 11yo.
My kids have a total sugar daddy now, but every once in a while they make a comment that they understand they are just manipulating him to get what they can while he wants to look good. It’s a bit spooky sometimes. Some days I feel awful, because one of my children really likes to spend time with dad, and he’ll be gone for hours. And then he comes homes and tells me he really pulled one over on his dad and got to do all kinds of fun things but he still hates his dad. Sigh.
There are no good answers, and kids always get hurt, but at least this way my sons know they can’t treat a woman the way dad treats mom, and my daughters know not to marry someone like their father, and if they do, they can and should leave.
My mom clued me in to what was going on in my childhood, when I was past thirty. I wish she had done it when I was 18. It’s easy now to forgive her, because I know she was doing the best she could in a really tough situation. But for a lot of years, I had very little contact with her because of her choices and their impact on me.
If I had known, I would have turned to her sooner for help and not stayed in my own abusive marriage for so long, I think.
My kids have a total sugar daddy now, but every once in a while they make a comment that they understand they are just manipulating him to get what they can while he wants to look good. It’s a bit spooky sometimes. Some days I feel awful, because one of my children really likes to spend time with dad, and he’ll be gone for hours. And then he comes homes and tells me he really pulled one over on his dad and got to do all kinds of fun things but he still hates his dad. Sigh.
There are no good answers, and kids always get hurt, but at least this way my sons know they can’t treat a woman the way dad treats mom, and my daughters know not to marry someone like their father, and if they do, they can and should leave.
My mom clued me in to what was going on in my childhood, when I was past thirty. I wish she had done it when I was 18. It’s easy now to forgive her, because I know she was doing the best she could in a really tough situation. But for a lot of years, I had very little contact with her because of her choices and their impact on me.
If I had known, I would have turned to her sooner for help and not stayed in my own abusive marriage for so long, I think.
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BMB
Guest
Graceandglory, I too believe that God is a God of reconciliation. Believe me, I have prayed and agonized over my family’s situation. I am NOT of faint heart. I have almost lost my sanity over this heartbreak and only with the passage of time can now consider what step is next for me. Ultimately it comes down to this… My husband continues to disregard his vow to “love, honor, cherish, forsaking all others till death do us part.” He kicked his vow to the curb many, many years ago.
I have the moral obligation to stay emotionally and physically healthy in order to raise my children. I have the moral obligation to protect them from dh’s manipulative and degrading behavior. I have the moral right to protect myself from sexually transmitted diseases. The moral obligation to provide financial stability to my children and a stable home environment.
I will no longer deny the truth of dh’s deceptions while dh continues to live in this adopted state of mortal sin. I will never cease praying for his redemption, but obligations to my own health, soul and to my children are my utmost concern at the moment. Divorce is a civil matter - a legal matter. I understand it does not sever the churches matrimonial bond. I have not broken my marriage vows.
It is my heart-felt prayer that God will lead him from this darkness he is lost in. If dh were to accept mental and marital counseling and well as develop a true and lasting relationship with God, then I would watch and listen. God will guide me if ever that is the case.
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Lerin
Guest
Well, while we are on the topic…
How much should I tell my own daughter, and when?
She started asking questions WAY earlier than I expected, first THREE MONTHS BEFORE SHE TURNED 3 (!!!) when we looked at family photo albums of my pregnancy and her baby pics and wondered “Where’s Daddy?”
I always figured if she was old enough to ask, she was old enough to receive an age-appropriate response.
I explained very simply, “We didn’t meet Daddy yet then. He was very sad to miss out on your days as a baby, but he is happy that he will be here for the rest of your life!”
And that was that.
Now her adoption was dragged out over a couple of years, so she was old enough to understand we were in court and what the judge/child advocate/social workers were asking and saying.
She knows that there was a man I was married to before Daddy, who decided he wasn’t ready to be a Daddy and husband and he moved away and we don’t know where he is. But she seems to be fine with this explanation. She does bring it up from time to time, and we always are completely honest, open, but age-appropriate in our responses.
I know someday she may want to know more. It is going to be awful though… I want her to be aware of the dangers of drugs and alcohol addiction and to avoid codependent, abusive relationships. I want to warn her of potential genetic issues surrounding mental problems (my x had some very frightening ones). I want to be honest with her as she is old enough to process that information.
However, what if she doesn’t ask? What if telling her the awful details will only hurt her self-image, as she grows to understand that, however much she loves her “real” Daddy, that this man she never knew did give half of her genetic makeup? Will she then feel somehow “bad” because of the man he was?
Just looking for opinions from other people who’ve been through it. Her godfather (my borther) is a doctor in child psychology, so I know he’s going to be there to help us as these issues arise too. He has already helped SO much!
How much should I tell my own daughter, and when?
She started asking questions WAY earlier than I expected, first THREE MONTHS BEFORE SHE TURNED 3 (!!!) when we looked at family photo albums of my pregnancy and her baby pics and wondered “Where’s Daddy?”
I always figured if she was old enough to ask, she was old enough to receive an age-appropriate response.
I explained very simply, “We didn’t meet Daddy yet then. He was very sad to miss out on your days as a baby, but he is happy that he will be here for the rest of your life!”
And that was that.
Now her adoption was dragged out over a couple of years, so she was old enough to understand we were in court and what the judge/child advocate/social workers were asking and saying.
She knows that there was a man I was married to before Daddy, who decided he wasn’t ready to be a Daddy and husband and he moved away and we don’t know where he is. But she seems to be fine with this explanation. She does bring it up from time to time, and we always are completely honest, open, but age-appropriate in our responses.
I know someday she may want to know more. It is going to be awful though… I want her to be aware of the dangers of drugs and alcohol addiction and to avoid codependent, abusive relationships. I want to warn her of potential genetic issues surrounding mental problems (my x had some very frightening ones). I want to be honest with her as she is old enough to process that information.
However, what if she doesn’t ask? What if telling her the awful details will only hurt her self-image, as she grows to understand that, however much she loves her “real” Daddy, that this man she never knew did give half of her genetic makeup? Will she then feel somehow “bad” because of the man he was?
Just looking for opinions from other people who’ve been through it. Her godfather (my borther) is a doctor in child psychology, so I know he’s going to be there to help us as these issues arise too. He has already helped SO much!
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Lerin
Guest
Oh, a cute story… my husband is the BEST about explaining and reassuring when she comes up with some questions about whether HE will decide to leave or not.
One say she was at the table, and just after prayers, said… “Daddy, will you ever leave my mommy and me?”
And he said, “Never, ever. I promised God I would stay forever and I will.”
She said, “Oh, that’s good. Can you pass the potatoes, then?”
One say she was at the table, and just after prayers, said… “Daddy, will you ever leave my mommy and me?”
And he said, “Never, ever. I promised God I would stay forever and I will.”
She said, “Oh, that’s good. Can you pass the potatoes, then?”
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cecilia97
Guest
Dear BMB,
I’m replying before reading any of the other responses so they don’t color my real thoughts.
I have been in a very similar situation. Daily neglected and emotionally abused by my former spouse who was involved with another woman. It destroyed her marriage and ours. It was so painful. I’m sending you a hug. Please lean on your family and friends at this time.
Secondly…you have NOT failed. Maybe your marriage has failed. None of us is perfect, but you have not broken any vows. It sounds like your spouse has openly abandoned the marriage.
My honest, gut advice as a Catholic woman is to do WHATEVER is legally necessary to protect your property and finances. Even the CCC makes exception for financial protections offered by civil divorce. Whether you stay married to him or not, he MUST hold up his end of the finances. Take him to court if you need to. And that’s where you would really need emotional support from friends and family. Do not be nasty, but be FIRM.
I also tried counseling and begged my former spouse to get help for what I thought was depression. He went through the motions, lied throughout, continued the affair, and would not seek help. In my mind, I had to try those things in order to be able to tell myself later that I had done everything I could. I kept praying that things would turn around but I believe God had a plan and it worked out for the best.
Please speak with a priest or deacon at your parish. And remember that civil divorce has no power to dissolve a sacramental marriage. Divorce is not a sin in every case. Remarriage without a prior decree of nullity IS objectively sinful. The annulment process is very healing, although it doesn’t seem so at the time.
I’m praying for you…please message me if I can help in any other way.
I’m replying before reading any of the other responses so they don’t color my real thoughts.
I have been in a very similar situation. Daily neglected and emotionally abused by my former spouse who was involved with another woman. It destroyed her marriage and ours. It was so painful. I’m sending you a hug. Please lean on your family and friends at this time.
Secondly…you have NOT failed. Maybe your marriage has failed. None of us is perfect, but you have not broken any vows. It sounds like your spouse has openly abandoned the marriage.
My honest, gut advice as a Catholic woman is to do WHATEVER is legally necessary to protect your property and finances. Even the CCC makes exception for financial protections offered by civil divorce. Whether you stay married to him or not, he MUST hold up his end of the finances. Take him to court if you need to. And that’s where you would really need emotional support from friends and family. Do not be nasty, but be FIRM.
I also tried counseling and begged my former spouse to get help for what I thought was depression. He went through the motions, lied throughout, continued the affair, and would not seek help. In my mind, I had to try those things in order to be able to tell myself later that I had done everything I could. I kept praying that things would turn around but I believe God had a plan and it worked out for the best.
Please speak with a priest or deacon at your parish. And remember that civil divorce has no power to dissolve a sacramental marriage. Divorce is not a sin in every case. Remarriage without a prior decree of nullity IS objectively sinful. The annulment process is very healing, although it doesn’t seem so at the time.
I’m praying for you…please message me if I can help in any other way.
C
cecilia97
Guest
BMB,
After reading the rest of the thread and your latest post, I want to tell you something my counselor told me three years ago as I filed for divorce:
“I think you’re going to come out of this with your integrity intact.”
Just keep focusing on your Father in Heaven, dear, and you are going to be fine. And blessed beyond what you can imagine now!
Single and celibate has been a great JOY for me. I have regained the faith of my childhood, by the grace of God. I have formed beautiful new relationships. I’ve done a year of counseling and come out knowing so much more about myself and others. I’ve been able to embrace my strengths and my weaknesses. I am not destitute, nor are the other divorced women I know. God willing, I will begin work on a master’s degree in counseling psychology next year.
Life is good, even the sufferings…it was all created by God because He loves us! You’re gonna do great.
After reading the rest of the thread and your latest post, I want to tell you something my counselor told me three years ago as I filed for divorce:
“I think you’re going to come out of this with your integrity intact.”
Just keep focusing on your Father in Heaven, dear, and you are going to be fine. And blessed beyond what you can imagine now!
Single and celibate has been a great JOY for me. I have regained the faith of my childhood, by the grace of God. I have formed beautiful new relationships. I’ve done a year of counseling and come out knowing so much more about myself and others. I’ve been able to embrace my strengths and my weaknesses. I am not destitute, nor are the other divorced women I know. God willing, I will begin work on a master’s degree in counseling psychology next year.
Life is good, even the sufferings…it was all created by God because He loves us! You’re gonna do great.
L
Liberanosamalo
Guest
I’m still going through the Disneyland phase. My oldest has NO illusions about daddy. Her curiosity led her to watch carefully and observe and come to her own correct conclusions about him. Middle child was designated the Princess by daddy then and he heaped every financial windfall on her to the exclusion of her sisters. Creating ill will, I might say. The youngest child was ignored till she was about 11 and then he began pouring attention on her as a reward for her accepting his then-fiancee. Which oldest abhorred because she knew too much about her.
Mine also “took what they could when they could” from him. Rather mercenary about it. I once commented on how jaded they were. One daughter, then 12, said, “Sometimes jaded is a good thing, mom.”
They all go through the princess phase and need for their own self image to believe they are loved by daddy. To loathe him would scar them and their ability to find proper love someday. I know this on a mental level. But I have watched his behavior upset them and warp them as they got older. The youngest went through the Daddy Daddy phase, but I think it’s ending. She is getting older and seeing him through different eyes. The middle one took advantage of his laxity and moved in with him so she could do what she wants. That has killed me. But she isn’t there because he spends much time or attention on her. She is there to use him in return. But now that his job pays less than the old one, he doesn’t have the money to lavish on her and she asks for things and he gets mad. (Hey, pal, you created that monster. You taught them never to be happy with what they have but always to be wanting the next thing. Enjoy it!)
I agree with other posters who say that the older kids will fill in the younger about the facts. You don’t have to say anything. As a matter of fact, the less negative you say about him the better for you. Mine don’t want to hear me say anything bad about wonder daddy. I’m supposed to just sit there while they talk about him fondly. But every once in a while they come home furious about what he has done to them lately. The nice thing about NPDs, they eventually use the same behavior against their children when they can’t control them. And God knows it’s hard to control teenagers. Once children no longer hero worship them, they tune them out too.
Just be there and love your kids. Things will unfold and as they grow up they will see things with different eyes.
Mine also “took what they could when they could” from him. Rather mercenary about it. I once commented on how jaded they were. One daughter, then 12, said, “Sometimes jaded is a good thing, mom.”
They all go through the princess phase and need for their own self image to believe they are loved by daddy. To loathe him would scar them and their ability to find proper love someday. I know this on a mental level. But I have watched his behavior upset them and warp them as they got older. The youngest went through the Daddy Daddy phase, but I think it’s ending. She is getting older and seeing him through different eyes. The middle one took advantage of his laxity and moved in with him so she could do what she wants. That has killed me. But she isn’t there because he spends much time or attention on her. She is there to use him in return. But now that his job pays less than the old one, he doesn’t have the money to lavish on her and she asks for things and he gets mad. (Hey, pal, you created that monster. You taught them never to be happy with what they have but always to be wanting the next thing. Enjoy it!)
I agree with other posters who say that the older kids will fill in the younger about the facts. You don’t have to say anything. As a matter of fact, the less negative you say about him the better for you. Mine don’t want to hear me say anything bad about wonder daddy. I’m supposed to just sit there while they talk about him fondly. But every once in a while they come home furious about what he has done to them lately. The nice thing about NPDs, they eventually use the same behavior against their children when they can’t control them. And God knows it’s hard to control teenagers. Once children no longer hero worship them, they tune them out too.
Just be there and love your kids. Things will unfold and as they grow up they will see things with different eyes.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
You know, Liberano, I read your posts and can’t help but think that your kids will behave like your husband someday, if not already. (because of his influence over them at times) You are such a good mom, and my heart breaks reading some of these stories of yours about your ex. Why doesn’t he see the destruction he is causing? Ugh!! I just wanted to say, that I hope your kids see through him, and DON’T think that his behavior is right…sometimes, kids mirror their parents, without us even knowing it. But, I’m hoping they take after you!! You have been through so much, I admire your courage through all of this.I’m still going through the Disneyland phase. My oldest has NO illusions about daddy. Her curiosity led her to watch carefully and observe and come to her own correct conclusions about him. Middle child was designated the Princess by daddy then and he heaped every financial windfall on her to the exclusion of her sisters. Creating ill will, I might say. The youngest child was ignored till she was about 11 and then he began pouring attention on her as a reward for her accepting his then-fiancee. Which oldest abhorred because she knew too much about her.
Mine also “took what they could when they could” from him. Rather mercenary about it. I once commented on how jaded they were. One daughter, then 12, said, “Sometimes jaded is a good thing, mom.”
They all go through the princess phase and need for their own self image to believe they are loved by daddy. To loathe him would scar them and their ability to find proper love someday. I know this on a mental level. But I have watched his behavior upset them and warp them as they got older. The youngest went through the Daddy Daddy phase, but I think it’s ending. She is getting older and seeing him through different eyes. The middle one took advantage of his laxity and moved in with him so she could do what she wants. That has killed me. But she isn’t there because he spends much time or attention on her. She is there to use him in return. But now that his job pays less than the old one, he doesn’t have the money to lavish on her and she asks for things and he gets mad. (Hey, pal, you created that monster. You taught them never to be happy with what they have but always to be wanting the next thing. Enjoy it!)
I agree with other posters who say that the older kids will fill in the younger about the facts. You don’t have to say anything. As a matter of fact, the less negative you say about him the better for you. Mine don’t want to hear me say anything bad about wonder daddy. I’m supposed to just sit there while they talk about him fondly. But every once in a while they come home furious about what he has done to them lately. The nice thing about NPDs, they eventually use the same behavior against their children when they can’t control them. And God knows it’s hard to control teenagers. Once children no longer hero worship them, they tune them out too.
Just be there and love your kids. Things will unfold and as they grow up they will see things with different eyes.
Sorry BMB–I didn’t mean to go OT.
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Liberanosamalo
Guest
Some people don’t care the destruction they cause. Even if it’s their own kids.
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dulcissima
Guest
You are so right about this.Some people don’t care the destruction they cause. Even if it’s their own kids.
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TigerKitty
Guest
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jdizon
Guest
In many ways, yes, if someone says this marriage is over and you say it cannot be and I refuse to allow it to be regardless of what you want, then it is manipulative, but please don’t read that as an insult, because it is not meant to be. People are often manipulative when they are in pain and don’t want to cause themselves any more pain. It doesn’t make you a bad person. Your reaction to this is entirely natural. You are in denial. It’s a stage of grief.
Someday you will look back at this and say to yourself, “how could I possibly have questioned whether it was sinful to divorce a person who was psychologically abusing me by staying married to me while he lived with his mother and slept with his married girlfriend.” Really. You will.
tampa family law
Someday you will look back at this and say to yourself, “how could I possibly have questioned whether it was sinful to divorce a person who was psychologically abusing me by staying married to me while he lived with his mother and slept with his married girlfriend.” Really. You will.
tampa family law
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BMB
Guest
Thank you cecilia97 - Geez… how many of us are out there, living with or surviving husbands/wives like mine? I was lucky to be able to thank my Dad, before he died, for bringing me up with the Catholic faith. My Mother remains a pillar of devout strenth.
Without personal faith, and the support of other good and like minded Christians, I would also be lost. I have suffered bouts of , "why me?, bargained with God, been angry, but am finally coming to a place of relative calm… an acceptance God’s love which is allowing me to trust HIM in all things.
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BMB
Guest
Lerin, I have also struggled with some of these topics, even PRIOR to my separation. DH’s family has many “issues” that can/are genetic in nature. Alcoholism, bi-polar, paranoid sch… in my family’s history are several cases of depression.
I have always felt the responsibility of letting my children know when their Aunt was in major depression. They’ve seen its devestation. Their other Aunt’s bi-polar swings are not hidden from them. I have related to the oldest two the dangers of alcohol for them. Neither dh or I have alcohol issues, but I can’t forsee their future because of paternal grandfather’s alcoholism. I can only strongly encourage them to stay away from it completely. At least until they are more mature and at the legal age. ( My son has told me that when offered drinks, he says that alcohol makes people in his family act crazy, so they leave him alone… wonder what other parents are saying about me in PTA!
)They don’t like all the “issues” but they are forewarned and I feel that is my duty to give them a head’s up. Where I am probably failing them is in not exposing their father’s other emotionally abusive faults. I would be devastated if my children either acted like him or enabled someone like him.
My counselor has only directed me to “tell the truth to them, compassionately, but fully WHEN they ask. If they ask they are probably ready to hear it.” My oldest asked me once if her dad had cheated. I sidestepped… she asked on another day and so I figured she really needed to know, so I told her a “watered down” version of the truth.
All we can do I what our gut tells us.
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Deborah_Whitman
Guest
His request to separate (insisting there was no one else) in June of last year was a bombshell and I refused, demanding counseling… trying to rekindle. On Jan 1, 08 I find the explicit emails that blew me away. He finally admitted a 4 year affair with a woman at work (her husband found out and they have since divorced). I am still humiliated by his lies, esp during this time prior to full disclosure.
Im STILL in disbelief, betrayed daily for 4, now 5 years.
Your story could be mine if you change a few details!! We were married for 32 yrs. Had been high school sweethearts so we were together for 38 total. At least yours finally admitted his adultery, my X never has, even though he moved in with his tramp before the divorce was final. My son refuses to accept the fact that his dad is a cheater even though he knows the truth, he lets it slide rather than face the truth. His 55 yr old father has a woman in her 30s ( my son is 31) with kids 3 and 6.
I am cheated out of financial support, retirement, my home…everything. But no one cares. I am so disiilusioned, I feel like God has forgotten me, I know my son has.
Im STILL in disbelief, betrayed daily for 4, now 5 years.
Your story could be mine if you change a few details!! We were married for 32 yrs. Had been high school sweethearts so we were together for 38 total. At least yours finally admitted his adultery, my X never has, even though he moved in with his tramp before the divorce was final. My son refuses to accept the fact that his dad is a cheater even though he knows the truth, he lets it slide rather than face the truth. His 55 yr old father has a woman in her 30s ( my son is 31) with kids 3 and 6.
I am cheated out of financial support, retirement, my home…everything. But no one cares. I am so disiilusioned, I feel like God has forgotten me, I know my son has.
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