At what point does cafeteria Catholicism become material Protestantism?

[Namesake]

Are you saying that God will approve any Christian of any denomination that would do such a thing?

The Church is not turning these people away. These people are turning away from the Church which is the body of Christ.

Not everyone agrees that the Catholic Church is the one true church. So, some of us are willing to accept Catholics just as we will accept other denominations. We do not damn Catholics to hell. We accept them and trust that they will go to heaven. Our Jewish heritage instructs that too.

Catholics aren’t nearly as charitable. Catholics damn everyone to hell unless they are in lockstep with the Roman Church. That isn’t very nice, and it certainly isn’t very Christian.

 

[Pax]

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Catholics aren’t nearly as charitable. Catholics damn everyone to hell unless they are in lockstep with the Roman Church. That isn’t very nice, and it certainly isn’t very Christian.

This is a gross error…I won’t hold this against you because it is clearly born of ignorance. Furthermore, I think you are quite capable of finding out the truth…please agree or disagree with what the Catholic Church actually teaches. What you have stated here is not Catholic teaching at all.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

My friend, you are wrong. Catholics do not damn anyone to hell if they are not in lockstep with the Catholic Church. We do teach that, Jews, Islamics, and Protestants can all be saved. Damning people is not our job, In point of fact, even God does not damn us, it is we who damn ourselves, because at judgment we inherently know that we cannot enter God’s presence and turn away.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Cling2Cross]

My friend, you are wrong. Catholics do not damn anyone to hell if they are not in lockstep with the Catholic Church. We do teach that, Jews, Islamics, and Protestants can all be saved. Damning people is not our job, In point of fact, even God does not damn us, it is we who damn ourselves, because at judgment we inherently know that we cannot enter God’s presence and turn away.
Deacon Ed B

Only those that come to Christ as Lord and Savior and are born again can be saved. If you do not affirm this - you throw away the scriptures. They must hear the gospel!

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:9-17 KJV)

 

[Pax]

We are well aware of the scripture passage that you quoted. I’m sure that you know that there are many more scriptures that apply to salvation as well. All of them are fully embraced by the Catholic faith. Knowing, understanding, and properly appreciating all of scripture is essential. No one passage defines everything, and no one passage negates the rest of scripture. Together, however, all of the scripture passages give a complete picture.

 

[Cling2Cross]

We are well aware of the scripture passage that you quoted. I’m sure that you know that there are many more scriptures that apply to salvation as well. All of them are fully embraced by the Catholic faith. Knowing, understanding, and properly appreciating all of scripture is essential. No one passage defines everything, and no one passage negates the rest of scripture. Together, however, all of the scripture passages give a complete picture.

That’s a copout and you are wilfully ignorant. Stand for Christ and His gospel. Stand for the truth in this world of compromise.

 

[Pax]

Perhaps you should slow down and engage in meaningful discussion. Strident reprimands are not productive particularly when they are unwarranted.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Perhaps you should slow down and engage in meaningful discussion. Strident reprimands are not productive particularly when they are unwarranted.

When someone compromises the truth of scripture and is behind a statement that says that many others are going to heaven who are in rejection to the Savior…reprimand is clearly warranted.

Only those that are born again - who live for the glory of the God of scriptures will be in Heaven…those who are truly His children. Those who obery to His glory - do good works for His glory - eat and drink to His glory.

To see anyone state otherwise is an affront to the truth.

 

[wanner47]

Namesake, it seems to me that you are very confused about the nature of “acceptance.”

The Church *accepts *everyone. However, *the Church does not **condone *sin.

It seems like you’re saying that to “accept” someone, it also means believing that everything they do is right. Realistically, that’s just not possible.

Here’s an example I often give. Many years ago, my mother had an adulterous affair. By your logic, if I want to continue to love my mother, I must also condone her affair. However, I cannot do that, because I believe that adultery is sinful. So your solution would be for me to stop loving my mother, since I cannot condone everything she does.

However, I am able to love my mother while still believing that she committed a sin by committing adultery.

When someone turns away or disobeys the Church, that is a choice that the person makes – not the Church. The Church does not and cannot **force **anyone to adhere to its teachings. That is a decision that each individual person must make for him/herself.

But the Church also has specific consequences as a result of those choices – e.g., if you commit a mortal sin, you should not present yourself for Communion. That’s also known as “reality” – our actions – our bad choices – have consequences. The Church still welcomes all sinners into its fold, but it still lays out consequences that are a result of bad choices. It’s up to the individual person to choose what choices to make. If they don’t like the consequences, then they can either make better choices to rectify their mistakes, or go elsewhere.

 

[wanner47]

That’s a copout and you are wilfully ignorant. Stand for Christ and His gospel. Stand for the truth in this world of compromise.

It’s ironic that you say this, because the Catholic Church is one of the few Churches that *does *stand for truth in a world of compromise.

I recommend that you read James Akin’s excellent book The Salvation Controversy to get a better idea of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation. It seems you are very much misinformed about what the CC really teaches.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

At what point does cafeteria Catholicism become material Protestantism?

How many or which doctrinal and/or binding disciplinary matters can a self-professed Catholic knowingly and willingly disregard before sinking into de facto Protestantism?

Where is the line drawn?

How many grains of dust can one take from a heap before it ceases to be a heap ?​

I think it depends on a lot of variables, because:

• people’s degree of spiritual maturity varies:
• what would be a venial sin one, could be mortal in another
• some receive more light than others, so are more culpable
• some are poorly formed
• people have different temptations, sins, excuses, aggravations of sin

• it’s because of these variables, & a host of others, that penitents cannot be given identical advice when being absolved. No doctor treats asthma as though it were an abscess or a concussion: they’re completely different maladies, so they require different remedies. And so do human beings.

Christ does not treat us wholesale, as a job lot, as though we were all identical to one another - nor should we

 

[Pax]

When someone compromises the truth of scripture and is behind a statement that says that many others are going to heaven who are in rejection to the Savior…reprimand is clearly warranted.

Only those that are born again - who live for the glory of the God of scriptures will be in Heaven…those who are truly His children. Those who obery to His glory - do good works for His glory - eat and drink to His glory.

To see anyone state otherwise is an affront to the truth.

So you are unwilling to learn anything through discussion, but remain unphased in your efforts to be rude. You really have little or no idea what my views are.

That’s fine, I won’t trouble you with any further thoughts.

 

[Pax]

How many grains of dust can one take from a heap before it ceases to be a heap ?​

I think it depends on a lot of variables, because:

• people’s degree of spiritual maturity varies:
• what would be a venial sin one, could be mortal in another
• some receive more light than others, so are more culpable
• some are poorly formed
• people have different temptations, sins, excuses, aggravations of sin

• it’s because of these variables, & a host of others, that penitents cannot be given identical advice when being absolved. No doctor treats asthma as though it were an abscess or a concussion: they’re completely different maladies, so they require different remedies. And so do human beings.

Christ does not treat us wholesale, as a job lot, as though we were all identical to one another - nor should we

Well put Michael.

 

[Lepanto]

How many grains of dust can one take from a heap before it ceases to be a heap ?​

I think it depends on a lot of variables, because:

• people’s degree of spiritual maturity varies:
• what would be a venial sin one, could be mortal in another
• some receive more light than others, so are more culpable
• some are poorly formed
• people have different temptations, sins, excuses, aggravations of sin

• it’s because of these variables, & a host of others, that penitents cannot be given identical advice when being absolved. No doctor treats asthma as though it were an abscess or a concussion: they’re completely different maladies, so they require different remedies. And so do human beings.

Christ does not treat us wholesale, as a job lot, as though we were all identical to one another - nor should we

True enough, Michael, but my question presumes that all of those mitigating factors have appropriately reduced culpability.

 

[Cling2Cross]

It’s ironic that you say this, because the Catholic Church is one of the few Churches that *does *stand for truth in a world of compromise.

I recommend that you read James Akin’s excellent book The Salvation Controversy to get a better idea of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation. It seems you are very much misinformed about what the CC really teaches.

I already read it and agreed and disagreed with it. I studied the CC for two years. I was responding to someone who was saying that Jews and Muslims were going to heaven…I guess I also am responding to this…

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[Cling2Cross]

So you are unwilling to learn anything through discussion, but remain unphased in your efforts to be rude. You really have little or no idea what my views are.

That’s fine, I won’t trouble you with any further thoughts.

I suppose you would have called Christ rude in His day? For standing for the truth against those who would compromise it?

 

[wanner47]

I already read it and agreed and disagreed with it. I studied the CC for two years. I was responding to someone who was saying that Jews and Muslims were going to heaven…I guess I also am responding to this…

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Note that the above does not say, “All Muslims are going to heaven” or “All Muslims are going to hell.” It says that Muslims are included in the *plan of salvation *.

See, the Catholic Church believes that only God can judge who is and who is not going to hell. Read the rest of that section of the Catechism for a deeper understanding of the Church’s teaching on salvation.

Cling2Cross, has God given you the authority to decide who is and who is not going to hell?

 

[Lepanto]

I suppose you would have called Christ rude in His day? For standing for the truth against those who would compromise it?

Nawww. Christ was neither rude nor a cafeteria Catholic.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Note that the above does not say, “All Muslims are going to heaven” or “All Muslims are going to hell.” It says that Muslims are included in the *plan of salvation *.

See, the Catholic Church believes that only God can judge who is and who is not going to hell. Read the rest of that section of the Catechism for a deeper understanding of the Church’s teaching on salvation.

Cling2Cross, has God given you the authority to decide who is and who is not going to hell?

What does it mean then - to say that they are included in the plan of salvation??? Are not all invited? Or is it that good Muslims and good Jews go to heaven???

Nobody goes but those who are born again through the gospel (you must be born to be His child)…and do works to glorify that very God that saved them (that God and that God alone).

 

[Cling2Cross]

Nawww. Christ was neither rude nor a cafeteria Catholic.

No - but some would say that He should not call people vipers or turn over their money tables. And to those who would compromise truth He would do the same.