At what point does cafeteria Catholicism become material Protestantism?
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C
Cling2Cross
Guest
It is the preaching of the gospel that saves and justifies…
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10 KJV)
When one is born again by the word of God, they have received of the Holy Spirit and can now follow in baptism and begin a life of being a disciple.
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wanner47
Guest
If you had read The Salvation Controversy, you’d know this.
From here (although I encourage you to read the entire article to get a better grasp of the subject):
You never answered my question, by the way – **has God given you the authority to determine who is and who is not going to hell?
As St. Paul says:
Those who strive to do the will of God, even though they do not realize they are doing so (or why they are motivated to do so) MAY still be saved. Note the “may.” We cannot claim to know the heart and mind of God, but our knowledge of His everlasting mercy allows us to hope that those who are in ignorance of the truth, through no fault of their own, *may *still be saved. It is possible that they are not, but it’s possible that they are.
. Let’s just say, that that was not self-evident 
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Cling2Cross
Guest
No but we know the scriptures.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. (John 10:1 KJV)
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wanner47
Guest
Are you an infallible interpreter of the Scriptures?
Also, please answer my question. A simple yes or no will suffice.
**Has God given you the authority to determine who is and who is not going to hell?
(eta: going to bed now; will be back to respond in the morning!)
B
briang72
Guest
Since you like quoting St. Paul, what do you think he meant here:
Philippians 2:12:
Work out your salvation? What could that mean? You mean there is more than just accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior?
Matthew 7:21-23:
When, truly, man believeth unto righteousness, he must truly liveth out that righteousness.
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Pax
Guest
Why make ridiculous presumptions?
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Pax
Guest
Reading the catechism will help you understand this teaching. You can also go to these two articles on Catholic.com
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909frs.asp
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
To Cling2cross
I see you are using the usual Protestant approach on justification. You do yourself an injustice looking at just this one verse. Consider the following if you will, and really think about them before your reply to each one . First, Justification and salvation are not synonymous. Salvation is not an event, it is a life long process. If it were not, why would St. Paul have the following in his epistles. In Philippians 2:12 he says. ***“So then, my dearly belove, obedient as always to my urgings, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation. not only when I happen to be with you, but all the more now that I am absent.” *** James says in his epistle 2:12 says "***If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, "Good-bye and good luck!. Keep warm and well fed, but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? So it is with the faith that has nothing is practice. It is thoroughly lifeless. *** . Then read Matthews Gospel in Ch 25:31-46 (I am not typing all of this here, but I assume you have a Bible) then apply this to the one line you hang your eternity on from Romans. Please explain to me why you do not assimilate all the Scriptures instead of using one verse for salvation. Remember. justification means you can be saved. for justification and salvation are not synonymous.
Deacon Ed B
I see you are using the usual Protestant approach on justification. You do yourself an injustice looking at just this one verse. Consider the following if you will, and really think about them before your reply to each one . First, Justification and salvation are not synonymous. Salvation is not an event, it is a life long process. If it were not, why would St. Paul have the following in his epistles. In Philippians 2:12 he says. ***“So then, my dearly belove, obedient as always to my urgings, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation. not only when I happen to be with you, but all the more now that I am absent.” *** James says in his epistle 2:12 says "***If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, "Good-bye and good luck!. Keep warm and well fed, but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? So it is with the faith that has nothing is practice. It is thoroughly lifeless. *** . Then read Matthews Gospel in Ch 25:31-46 (I am not typing all of this here, but I assume you have a Bible) then apply this to the one line you hang your eternity on from Romans. Please explain to me why you do not assimilate all the Scriptures instead of using one verse for salvation. Remember. justification means you can be saved. for justification and salvation are not synonymous.
Deacon Ed B
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Pax
Guest
Salvation without belief in Christ? Let’s see what else Paul has to say.
Rom 1:20-25
Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
Rom 2:14-16
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
These two passages give light to everything Paul says about “salvation for non-believers” and to the substance of the Church’s teaching on the matter.
Please note that the first passage indicates that no man has an excuse for not believing in God. Therefore, those that fully reject God’s grace and refuse to believe in God will not be saved. They apparently have “no excuse.”
The second passage makes it clear that the gentiles may not have had the OT law available to them, and it also makes it clear that this ignorance applies to ignorance of Christ. We know that this extends to ignorance of Jesus because of Paul’s reference to “that day when…God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” “That day” is a reference to the end of time and the final judgment. Those that are ignorant of Jesus and have, therefore, no way of coming to Christ “might” still be saved. Only God will judge their final disposition of heart, mind, and soul.
This is the essence of the Church’s teaching. It in no way negates the truth that we are only saved through our Lord Jesus Christ. It merely means that the mercy of God may apply the redemptive merits of Jesus to those that are innocently ignorant of Christ. In the end, God in His infinite wisdom, justice, and mercy will decide who will and who will not enter His divine presence.
I hope this helps.
Rom 1:20-25
Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
Rom 2:14-16
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
These two passages give light to everything Paul says about “salvation for non-believers” and to the substance of the Church’s teaching on the matter.
Please note that the first passage indicates that no man has an excuse for not believing in God. Therefore, those that fully reject God’s grace and refuse to believe in God will not be saved. They apparently have “no excuse.”
The second passage makes it clear that the gentiles may not have had the OT law available to them, and it also makes it clear that this ignorance applies to ignorance of Christ. We know that this extends to ignorance of Jesus because of Paul’s reference to “that day when…God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” “That day” is a reference to the end of time and the final judgment. Those that are ignorant of Jesus and have, therefore, no way of coming to Christ “might” still be saved. Only God will judge their final disposition of heart, mind, and soul.
This is the essence of the Church’s teaching. It in no way negates the truth that we are only saved through our Lord Jesus Christ. It merely means that the mercy of God may apply the redemptive merits of Jesus to those that are innocently ignorant of Christ. In the end, God in His infinite wisdom, justice, and mercy will decide who will and who will not enter His divine presence.
I hope this helps.
T
Teflon93
Guest
One dogma.At what point does cafeteria Catholicism become material Protestantism?
How many or which doctrinal and/or binding disciplinary matters can a self-professed Catholic knowingly and willingly disregard before sinking into de facto Protestantism?
Where is the line drawn?
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mark_a
Guest
Not believing transubstantiation is but another symtom. I’ve never known a cafeteria Catholic who rejected transubstantiation and accepted the Church’s teachings about artificial birth control.
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Jeanette_L
Guest
I just wanted to jump in here and say thanks for this. It always helps to see and read this again and again, I never tire of running across this stuff in the forum.
It really is such a ridiculous argument to on one hand, accuse the Catholic Church of being cold and sending everyone who is not Roman Catholic to hell, and then in the same breath accuse the Catholic Church of being lenient and accepting everyone into heaven, even those who through no fault of their own have never heard the Gospel of Christ and Salvation. All this with no regard to honestly studying the truth about what the Church really teaches, and honestly studying the scriptures *in their *totality to understand why.
Hatred has no sense of logic or reason it seems.
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Teflon93
Guest
Au contraire—there is a logic to anti-Catholic rants: it is that the Church must be attacked on all fronts, at all times, by all means. It doesn’t matter that most of one’s fellow barbarians at the gate are themselves equally if not more fitting targets for a specific set of attacks.I just wanted to jump in here and say thanks for this. It always helps to see and read this again and again, I never tire of running across this stuff in the forum.
It really is such a ridiculous argument to on one hand, accuse the Catholic Church of being cold and sending everyone who is not Roman Catholic to hell, and then in the same breath accuse the Catholic Church of being lenient and accepting everyone into heaven, even those who through no fault of their own have never heard the Gospel of Christ and Salvation. All this with no regard to honestly studying the truth about what the Church really teaches, and honestly studying the scriptures *in their *totality to understand why.
Hatred has no sense of logic or reason it seems.
Hilaire Belloc pointed out that the Catholic Church, being not of this world, is the only institution which has endured constant attacks from this world.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
The Great Heresies, I just finished that book a couple of weeks ago, excellent read!
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EJTMJR
Guest
IS THAT WHAT YOU WILL TELL JESUS CHRIST???
REMEMBER “HE WHO REJECTS THE ONE I SEND REJECTS THE ONE WHO SENDS THEM”
JESUS SENT THE CHURCH!!!
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Tomster
Guest
Fr. Charles Conner will be starting a new series on EWTN very soon on this very topic. Can’t wait.The Great Heresies, I just finished that book a couple of weeks ago, excellent read!
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Tomster
Guest
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