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Leela
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(as in the notion that killing the unborn will make for a better earth).
You are taking an unusual position even for a Catholic if you cannot applaud efforts where our ideas about good deeds overlap when they are not performed by believers.
The following article about a billboard war illustrates how many of our differences may be resolved:
blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/11/atheism-a-posit.html
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Charlemagne_II
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Leela
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You are taking an unusual position even for a Catholic if you cannot applaud efforts where our ideas about good deeds overlap when they are not performed by believers.*
It isn’t that I think what good deeds you do are not worth applauding, it’s that I think atheists are generally more often interested in the applause than the goodness of the deed. Atheists are fully aware that many Christians act out of the love of neighbor that Christ preached. That love is in all of us for our neighbor, because God planted it in us as a natural trait of our humanity. Atheists share in that planting of the will to love, but it cannot be nurtured in them by the love of God as well, for to say that you can be a lover while denying the source of all Love just brings into question why you love.
Is it for applause? :clapping:
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You are taking an unusual position even for a Catholic if you cannot applaud efforts where our ideas about good deeds overlap when they are not performed by believers.*
It isn’t that I think what good deeds you do are not worth applauding, it’s that I think atheists are generally more often interested in the applause than the goodness of the deed. Atheists are fully aware that many Christians act out of the love of neighbor that Christ preached. That love is in all of us for our neighbor, because God planted it in us as a natural trait of our humanity. Atheists share in that planting of the will to love, but it cannot be nurtured in them by the love of God as well, for to say that you can be a lover while denying the source of all Love just brings into question why you love.
Is it for applause? :clapping:
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liquidpele
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Actually, the girl had pneumonia and they had an oxygen mask on her. She was never on life support. They only removed the oxygen mask.
Source: nursinglink.com/news/articles/7022-photo-captures-image-of-an-angel-in-hospital-hallway?page=2
Who cares if I can’t explain this one instance? I’m no doctor, but I’ve hear of far more unexpected recoveries than that. How many people died in that hospital that day I wonder? Anyway, I’m not trying to explain it away… just understand we see the same event very differently. I’ve never seen a claimed miracle that I found very miraculous though.
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Charlemagne_II
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Angel
Miracles are only meaningful and convincing to the people who experience them and those who are closest to them, which may include physicians, and to any other Christian who sees truth in the event and also sees the power of God.
However, atheists are remote from these experiences and always have an answer to explain why a miracle is not a miracle. It’s the failure of atheists to see Christianity from the inside, to feel God’s grace and healing power, that makes them convinced it’s all an illusion.
Miracles are only meaningful and convincing to the people who experience them and those who are closest to them, which may include physicians, and to any other Christian who sees truth in the event and also sees the power of God.
However, atheists are remote from these experiences and always have an answer to explain why a miracle is not a miracle. It’s the failure of atheists to see Christianity from the inside, to feel God’s grace and healing power, that makes them convinced it’s all an illusion.
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Angel7
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So in your eyes it is an Angel-shaped Light.
And a Girl be healed of pnemonia
In my Eyes it is an angel helping a Girl with a disease, that G-d has healed.
There are many stories of NDE’s (Near death experiences) and supernatural phenomenon, when in near death instances. (Though some are confusing and Contrary, don’t base anything off of want an NDE say’s if contradicts church)
What would constitute miraculous?
And a Girl be healed of pnemonia
In my Eyes it is an angel helping a Girl with a disease, that G-d has healed.
There are many stories of NDE’s (Near death experiences) and supernatural phenomenon, when in near death instances. (Though some are confusing and Contrary, don’t base anything off of want an NDE say’s if contradicts church)
What would constitute miraculous?
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Leela
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I see no greater capacity for love in Christians as compared to anyone else. Those claiming to have been reborn a new being in Christ Jesus don’t seem to behave as differently from the way they behaved in the past as we nonbelievers hope they would. We are supposed to know you are Christians by your love, but I just don’t see it. If those who have had the “miraculous transformative experiences” that Christians claim to have really were more loving than their neighbors, their proselyting would be more successful. Instead we are just asked to imagine how much worse they would be without Jesus.
We have been waiting a very long time for prosperous Christians to behave differently from prosperous pagans. Of all the failed prophecies of religions, “they will know you by your love” may be the most disappointing.
Best,
Leela
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Angel7
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It’s kinda hard to express Love over an online forum!
But i really do hope you see how beautiful the grass is from this side
Try thinking about what a christian would consider love?
Praying for you would be considered as love.
But i really do hope you see how beautiful the grass is from this side
Try thinking about what a christian would consider love?
Praying for you would be considered as love.
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PadraigPearce
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But we’re not all saints, that’s the problem. Christianity must be judged by it’s best, not it’s mediocre adherents. We’re almost all mediocre. Do you see a greater than average capacity for love in somebody like St. Maximilian Kolbe, or Mother Teresa?
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j1akey
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I can totally appreciate that. The problem for me comes in when we’re lumped in with the likes of Hitler or Stalin, which has been said many times on these boards, as well as to my face just, because we’re Atheists, it’s “atheisms” fault these things happened, atheism is responsible for the evils of this world. I’ve been told that no matter how much good I do, I’ll still go to hell because I haven’t accepted JC into my heart. Not that I think i’m going to hell or heaven for that matter since I don’t believe in such things but it’s the same as telling me I’ll never be as good as someone that’s Christian/Catholic regardless of my deeds, and that’s basically a slap in the face to me. It’s really just hypocritical. Not you personally of course but I hope you see what I’m getting at.
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Charlemagne_II
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We have been waiting a very long time for prosperous Christians to behave differently from prosperous pagans. Of all the failed prophecies of religions, “they will know you by your love” may be the most disappointing.
Well, not all Christians are evolved Christians. But I will say I have seen more love expressed in the good deeds of Christians than in those of atheists. Apparently we are moving in different circles, and are seeing different things!
If you do not live in a Christian community (such as a parish), I think you may be missing out on observing a lot of the love you fail to see by not being there to see it.
I’ll say it again, as I’ve witnessed it first hand: the worst and most incorrigible criminals are in prison because they had little or no connection with God. In short, most criminals are “without God” one way or another; in their heads, or in their hearts, or in both.
If you are looking for the depths of depravity, you won’t find it in a true Christian. If you do, let me know. That would be the wildest freak of nature.
Well, not all Christians are evolved Christians. But I will say I have seen more love expressed in the good deeds of Christians than in those of atheists. Apparently we are moving in different circles, and are seeing different things!
If you do not live in a Christian community (such as a parish), I think you may be missing out on observing a lot of the love you fail to see by not being there to see it.
I’ll say it again, as I’ve witnessed it first hand: the worst and most incorrigible criminals are in prison because they had little or no connection with God. In short, most criminals are “without God” one way or another; in their heads, or in their hearts, or in both.
If you are looking for the depths of depravity, you won’t find it in a true Christian. If you do, let me know. That would be the wildest freak of nature.
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liquidpele
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An excellent question!!! This is a great example of the core difference between religious people and atheists. You call incredible things miracles, and I look for an explanation. The difference is looking at the situation as being inspirational or as a chance to learn something. Either road is good in it’s own way.
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reggieM
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A good place to turn your investigation into this matter is among ex-convicts or Christian alcohol & drug support groups. You might consider searching out members of religious congregations such as the Benedictines, Carthusians or Carmelites (among many others, but those groups often attract penitents). You will find many persons in those orders – who changed their lives radically.
You will find that in the past, certain persons committed a range of felony crimes and other serious sins. Then, after finding religious faith, they ceased doing such things.
I would be glad to help you explore this topic if you’re interested.
I hate to see someone say that she has been “waiting a long time” to see evidence of a regenerated life – when so many examples are readily available.
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Leela
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I’m not a fan of Mother Teresa but I’m sure there are many extraordinary Christians. But there are also extraordinary nonChristians, those who are called living Buddhas, enlightened, mahatma, zen master, etc. I don’t think that Christianity has anything to do with the phenomenon of extraordinary love.
I also can’t see why I should only look at the saints. We’re supposed to know a tree by its fruit, right? Are we only supposed to consider the very best apple a tree has ever produced? Your mediocre adherents claim all the time to have been transformed by religious experiences and to be reborn as a new being in Christ. If I am supposed to recognize such people by their love rather than what they claim about themselves I see little evidence of any special benefits of belief or fruits of faith. It’s a shame, really.
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Charlemagne_II
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Leela
If I am supposed to recognize such people by their love rather than what they claim about themselves I see little evidence of any special benefits of belief or fruits of faith. It’s a shame, really.
Do you really want to see? Why are you not a fan of Mother Teresa? Would you say you are also not a fan of Damien of Molokai, a priest who sacrificed his life tending to a leper colony and who will be canonized a saint in October?
Christianity is rich with examples of this kind of heroism, much of it still going on unnoticed because the heroes are not interested in the applause of the world.
Some day, if you dare, read the history of the Knights of Columbus. After reading that history, you will no longer be able to say you can’t see any evidence of love among Catholics.
Read the history of any religious order, for example, the Sisters of Mercy.
Do you read Catholic history at all, or only anti-Catholic history? Do you see no love in the Catholic Church for the unborn?
Do you see no love in the Catholic Church for orphans, the mentally handicapped, the physically handicapped, the poor, the elderly, the blind, the prisoners, those in despair, etc.? Then I think maybe you are not really looking for anything but what you want to see, not what is there.
I don’t think that Christianity has anything to do with the phenomenon of extraordinary love.
The first and second commandments of Jesus:
Love the Lord your God.
Love one another as I have loved you.
How to plant the fruit of love?
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
If I am supposed to recognize such people by their love rather than what they claim about themselves I see little evidence of any special benefits of belief or fruits of faith. It’s a shame, really.
Do you really want to see? Why are you not a fan of Mother Teresa? Would you say you are also not a fan of Damien of Molokai, a priest who sacrificed his life tending to a leper colony and who will be canonized a saint in October?
Christianity is rich with examples of this kind of heroism, much of it still going on unnoticed because the heroes are not interested in the applause of the world.
Some day, if you dare, read the history of the Knights of Columbus. After reading that history, you will no longer be able to say you can’t see any evidence of love among Catholics.
Read the history of any religious order, for example, the Sisters of Mercy.
Do you read Catholic history at all, or only anti-Catholic history? Do you see no love in the Catholic Church for the unborn?
Do you see no love in the Catholic Church for orphans, the mentally handicapped, the physically handicapped, the poor, the elderly, the blind, the prisoners, those in despair, etc.? Then I think maybe you are not really looking for anything but what you want to see, not what is there.
I don’t think that Christianity has anything to do with the phenomenon of extraordinary love.
The first and second commandments of Jesus:
Love the Lord your God.
Love one another as I have loved you.
How to plant the fruit of love?
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
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Leela
Guest
I see lots of examples of extraordinary love throughout the world and across cultures. What I don’t see is anything very different about Christian love or anything very different about typical Christians as compared to typical non-Christians with regard to love. According to the Bible we are supposed to see a difference, but I don’t. It would be wonderful if we really could know a Christian by their love, but we can’t.
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Leela
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Anyone who has pursued the issue with you in the past, as many have, has determined that your definition of depravity amounts to not being a true Christian, so then by definition you won’t ever find a depraved Christian. Any depraved criminal that claims to be Christian you will simply say is not a REAL Christian, even if they were a priest of the Catholic Church when committing their crimes.I’ll say it again, as I’ve witnessed it first hand: the worst and most incorrigible criminals are in prison because they had little or no connection with God. In short, most criminals are “without God” one way or another; in their heads, or in their hearts, or in both.
If you are looking for the depths of depravity, you won’t find it in a true Christian. If you do, let me know. That would be the wildest freak of nature.
Best,
Leela
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Charles_Darwin
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Is the pope a real christian, or are priests?If you are looking for the depths of depravity, you won’t find it in a true Christian. If you do, let me know. That would be the wildest freak of nature.
thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-details/Pope+%27led+cover-up+of+child+abuse+by+priests%27/article.do
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Angel7
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I feel bad for the Pope covering up for the Mistakes and sin’s of priests, he has a big responsibility.
First off the Priests who Molest kids, aren’t TRUE christians, don’t try to switch it around, that was “under the radar” trick. A true Christian wouldn’t do that, that is an obvious fact, when a priest serves “Himself” (like the devil did) instead of G-d, they won’t become The best of priests, that for sure.
The Holy Father has to defend the Good side of the Catholic church, while at the same time, Those bad priests give the church a Bad name.
Same with athiests.
When an Athiest Insults a christian I’ll bet the other “athiests” will say that person gives you guys a bad name.
We are not perfect and I hope Such priests repent, and have a conversion of heart.
Do not mistake the fruit of 2 different trees.
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Angel7
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…yeah? That is EXACTLY the way it is. lol.
Thank you for realizing that, something that other people over look.
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