Atheism, Religion, and Crime

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reggieM said:
The first most important thing is to measure your own expressions of love. Would you claim to show more love and charity towards others than what you find among the best Christians? If not, why not? (You don’t have to answer me, but to question yourself).

I am friends with a Catholic couple in my city who started a hospice for terminally ill patients – a place where they can die in peace and dignity. People of all religions (or none) are welcome. As an aside, an atheist gentleman died there and was converted to God before he died – not through any pressure at all, but through the extraordinary love that he saw.

I have another good friend who started an independent Catholic school which takes in children of low economic backgrounds (or others) – and other friends who work there. Rob, for example, has taught there for 10 years living on a subsistence wage.

These are just two of many examples I could give – without looking at Saints of old (but why not look at the exemplars - like St. Francis Assisi?).

But I do recommend that you visit a convent or a contemplative order and see the goodness of Catholics who make many sacrifices of their lives for others.

You now may change your opinion and say that this is a very common thing to see, and while I object to that view, I hope you will refrain from making statements about how you are “waiting a long time” to see extraordinary acts of love from Catholics.

I would also suggest that you get to know some charitable Catholics in your area. There are some doing unheralded work of many kinds. I have another friend who works in organization that helps unwed mothers with baby clothes and food – through their Christian faith they show a great deal of love for complete strangers in need.

It’s best to look for the good in others and open your heart to their good works. I think that if you spent time (in the flesh, not on internet debate forums) with some devoted Catholics you would find that they will show you much love, and you’ll be able to participate in their good works. The Daughters of America, the Sisters of Mercy … there are many various Catholic charitable groups that you could experience.
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Amen to that brother. I have so many stories like this I don’t know where to begin. If someone tells me that they don’t see anything special about Catholics doing innumerable good deeds, they are not telling the truth.

jd
 
Charlemagne_II said:
…if God is dead, everything is permitted … whatever you can get away with … what moral vision the person with the largest cache of weapons can impose.
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So you’re saying that, in an atheistic society, the powerful will impose their whims on the weak? Hmm…do you think it’s just a coincidence that Christians supposedly derive their morality from the whims of a god who is said to be the most powerful being in existence? Do I see a similarity here? Hypocrisy maybe? Nah, couldn’t be. 😃
 
Oreoracle said:
Hmm…do you think it’s just a coincidence that Christians supposedly derive their morality from the whims of a god who is said to be the most powerful being in existence? 😃
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The fact that it is a moral system means that it is not derived on “whims”.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Moral relativism is at the heart of atheism. Atheists, having defied the Absolute Being, will have no absolute values. As Dostoevski put it, if God is dead, everything is permitted … whatever you can get away with … what moral vision the person with the largest cache of weapons can impose.
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Is that not exactly what has always happens? British Empire, Roman Empire, Spanish Empire, French Empire, Portuguese Empire, Dutch Empire and were these not all christian empires? Was the USA always popluated by white chirstians, or did those caches of weapons see to that?

“everything is permitted” except from the fact that in cooperative societies we have little things called jails. :rolleyes:
 
JDaniel said:
Amen to that brother. I have so many stories like this I don’t know where to begin. If someone tells me that they don’t see anything special about Catholics doing innumerable good deeds, they are not telling the truth.

jd
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Reggie and JD,

When did I ever say that Catholics don’t do good deeds? Of course they do. But I don’t see anything unique about Christian love that distinguishes Christians as a group from other groups. Catholics do good deeds, but so do individual Lutherans, so do Hindus, so do atheists, so do Muslims. You want to point to extraordinary people, but I see no difference between these people and extraordinary people of other times, cultures, religions or lack of religion. And I see no difference between such groups in their propensity for love, yet according to the Bible, Christians in general, and not just a few extraordinary ones, are supposed to be known by their love.

I see your examples of Catholics doing good work as examples of the universal phenomenon of human beings in solidarity with other human beings rather than as examples of a unique distinctly Christian phenomenon. From this perspective, Catholics as a whole behave no differently from other cultural groups taken as a whole.

Best,
Leela
 
anEvilAtheist

By the way, not all atheists are moral relativists, and it is possible to be an atheist and a moral realist. I also think that theistic morality is way more problematic than you realize. But I prefer discussing the issue of morality with people who care more about the truth than they do with winning arguments.

How about sticking to the issue instead of the ad hominems? 👍

By the way, what is a “moral realist” as opposed to a moral relativist? And with atheism, who gets to decide what is moral realism? The realist with the largest cache of weapons?
 
Leela,
*
I see your examples of Catholics doing good work as examples of the universal phenomenon of human beings in solidarity with other human beings rather than as examples of a unique distinctly Christian phenomenon. From this perspective, Catholics as a whole behave no differently from other cultural groups taken as a whole.*

Since you are not a Catholic and have no knowledge whatever of Catholic charity but what you may hear in the news, I really don’t think you know what you are talking about.

Catholics behave no differently from other cultural groups … such as atheists?

Check the telephone book in every city in America; you will find a listing for Catholic charity groups by one name or another (Catholic Charity, Knights of Columbus, St. Vincent de Paul, Mustard Seed, Rachel’s Vineyard, etc.). Check the telephone book for every city in America; I think you will not find a single listing for atheist charities.

Why is that so, if Catholics are no different than atheists? :confused:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Leela,
*
I see your examples of Catholics doing good work as examples of the universal phenomenon of human beings in solidarity with other human beings rather than as examples of a unique distinctly Christian phenomenon. From this perspective, Catholics as a whole behave no differently from other cultural groups taken as a whole.*

Since you are not a Catholic and have no knowledge whatever of Catholic charity but what you may hear in the news, I really don’t think you know what you are talking about.

Catholics behave no differently from other cultural groups … such as atheists?

Check the telephone book in every city in America; you will find a listing for Catholic charity groups by one name or another (Catholic Charity, St. Vincent de Paul, Mustard Seed, Rachel’s Vineyard, etc.). Check the telephone book for every city in America; you will not find a single listing for atheist charities.

Why is that so, if Catholics are no different than atheists? :confused:
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How are Catholic charitable efforts qualitatively different from Islamic efforts or secular efforts?

Of course you won’t find anything called “atheist charity”, but you will find a lot of secular organizations doing charitable work such as those listed here freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Secular_charities#Secular_Charities_and_Aid_groups
 
Leela

*How are Catholic charitable efforts qualitatively different from Islamic efforts or secular efforts? *

Good grief, how do you measure qualitatively different?
**

*Of course you won’t find anything call atheist charity *

I agree. 👍

but you will find a lot of secular organizations doing charitable work such as those listed here freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Sec…and_Aid_groups**

Not sure what your point is. With possibly a couple of exceptions, that website lists a lot of groups that have many religious volunteers and supporters, so you can’t really say it’s an alternative to religious charity. The ACLU is on that list. They are not my idea of a charity group. Why are they listed? They are essentially an atheist leftist political organization. I certainly wouldn’t put them in the same category with Catholic Charities.
 
Oreoracle

So you’re saying that, in an atheistic society, the powerful will impose their whims on the weak? Hmm…do you think it’s just a coincidence that Christians supposedly derive their morality from the whims of a god who is said to be the most powerful being in existence? Do I see a similarity here? Hypocrisy maybe? Nah, couldn’t be

In any society, the powerful may impose their whims on the weak. In an atheistic society, the weak have no recourse of appeal to a higher authority … God, who law is not whimsical but absolute. In an atheist society the “dear” Leader rules absolutely by his own whim, and is not even looking over his should to see if God is watching. This is a recipe for social madness.

As Kissinger once said, North Korea is a **very **strange society.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Oreoracle

So you’re saying that, in an atheistic society, the powerful will impose their whims on the weak? Hmm…do you think it’s just a coincidence that Christians supposedly derive their morality from the whims of a god who is said to be the most powerful being in existence? Do I see a similarity here? Hypocrisy maybe? Nah, couldn’t be

In any society, the powerful may impose their whims on the weak. In an atheistic society, the weak have no recourse of appeal to a higher authority … God, who law is not whimsical but absolute. In an atheist society the “dear” Leader rules absolutely by his own whim, and is not even looking over his should to see if God is watching. This is a recipe for social madness.

As Kissinger once said, North Korea is a **very **strange society.
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EXACTLY!

If it weren’t for G-d, America would be a Totalaritan Regime. Think about it.

US Independence.

“All People have the right of Life, Liberty, And the Pursuit of Happiness.”

THESE ARE G-D GIVEN RIGHTS.
If G-d did not give us these rights who did? The Goverment?
If the Goverment gave us these rights they have all the right to take them away.
 
Charles_Darwin said:
We are discussing morals on this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=358337&page=48

**It’s quite amusing. Even after the religious have agreed their moral absolutes don’t stand in every situtaion, they still can’t admit they are NOT absolute. **

This all reminds me of this funny video, its only a min or so long.

youtube.com/watch?v=d0A4_bwCaX0
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… Who says there not? They Are.

If you don’t understand then replace it with math, i’ve said it so many times before.
Think about it like Math.
Violence is always wrong.
Violence is always a -7 (Using math to explain)
Genocide is ALWAYS wrong
Genocide is always a -11
If said people have tried ALL Other Means, then Violence becomes Justified, because all other options failed.
Thus War -7 to fight off Genocide -11 = -4 (The war is over, The genocide is Over)
Had we NOT acted said Genocide would have Continued.
So it equals -4 (Which is closer to the Positive end of the Spectrum, then -11 or -7 was.)

Why is it so Hard to understand? It is the Lesser of 2 Evils (Let Genocide continue, or, Declare Rebellion and fight for the Right to Live)
 
Charlemagne_II said:
In any society, the powerful may impose their whims on the weak.
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We can agree on something!
In an atheistic society, the weak have no recourse of appeal to a higher authority …
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Your argument basically amounts to: “Wouldn’t we be in a more comfortable environment if God exists? Since it makes us feel better about our position as mortals in a mostly inanimate universe, it must be true!”
God, who law is not whimsical but absolute.
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This is obviously pure speculation on your part, which you will claim is reinforced by various authority figures (who also only speculate, and the chain goes on). The bottom line is that there is no way to tell how another being’s mind is structured. We couldn’t know what God wants or how he goes about wanting things. We couldn’t even estimate that his mind is similar to our own, since he isn’t human. Again, you are only guessing.
 
Angel7 said:
… Who says there not? They Are.

If you don’t understand then replace it with math, i’ve said it so many times before.
Think about it like Math.
Violence is always wrong.
Violence is always a -7 (Using math to explain)
Genocide is ALWAYS wrong
Genocide is always a -11
If said people have tried ALL Other Means, then Violence becomes Justified, because all other options failed.
Thus War -7 to fight off Genocide -11 = -4 (The war is over, The genocide is Over)
Had we NOT acted said Genocide would have Continued.
So it equals -4 (Which is closer to the Positive end of the Spectrum, then -11 or -7 was.)

Why is it so Hard to understand? It is the Lesser of 2 Evils (Let Genocide continue, or, Declare Rebellion and fight for the Right to Live)
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Is incest wrong? Was it always wrong?
 
Leela said:
Is incest wrong? Was it always wrong?
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Yes, even a scientis should Know Inbreeding is wrong, because it would cause Genetic Problems.
It is Wrong, it always was Wrong.
Murder is wrong, it always was wrong.
Stealing from the Poor is wrong, it always was wrong.
 
Oreoracle

This is obviously pure speculation on your part, which you will claim is reinforced by various authority figures (who also only speculate, and the chain goes on). The bottom line is that there is no way to tell how another being’s mind is structured. We couldn’t know what God wants or how he goes about wanting things. We couldn’t even estimate that his mind is similar to our own, since he isn’t human. Again, you are only guessing.

I would only be guessing if I had not read the Bible. 😉
 
Leela

*Is incest wrong? Was it always wrong? *

Can you think of an instance in which incest is right?

We’re all ears!
 
Angel7 said:
Yes, even a scientis should Know Inbreeding is wrong, because it would cause Genetic Problems.
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Incest does not necessarily cause inbreeding, just as a heterosexual relationship doesn’t necessarily cause birth. If you’re going to be intolerant, you can at least make up some good reasons. 😉
 
Charlemagne_II said:
I would only be guessing if I had not read the Bible. 😉
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So I was reading a book the other day, and it said that God doesn’t exist. It also said that unicorns frolic in the fields when we aren’t looking. Yep, it’s fun to blindly trust books and not have to think for yourself and face reality! :rolleyes:
 
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