Atheism

[rcwitness]

have both essentially said in those articles that “God” refers to ‘something that cannot be imagined’. That’s also essentially what the St. Augustine quote at

ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PNI6-5.TXT

(scroll down to sermon number 16)

says. Then how can anybody claim to know that “God” refers to anything at all? Father Rolheiser mentions “gut sense”. What is that?

God cannot be imagined by men. Man would not imagine such a story, as what He has revealed through His relationship with mankind through salvation history. Every generation has its evidence and conviction to seek. The nation of Israel had Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets. Always keeping His hand on the pulse. And prophesies built up to the day when the Lord finally appeared, and as the song put it, “The soul felt it’s worth”. Magi from unknown people traveled far, guided by prophesies, a star and the “fear of God”, to pay homage to who they knew in their hearts was the gift of the Creator’s.

But what can I say to give you the fear of God? To preach a fiery wrath? God forbid I do that. He is not interested in wrath, rather pulling us from wrath. He would rather see His beloved suffer for a little while than any of us taste what is coming. I trust Him to convict His own, in the Spirit, and appoint with signs of wonder, those He will use as His instruments, in order to call His sheep to His pasture. I am not concerned about your little mind scratching to understand God, but your soul that Christ thought worthy to be crucified to gain.

So I will leave you with some Scripture, which can speak greater that I.

Acts 10
The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,**nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.*And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,*that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us,**for

‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your poets have said,

‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

*Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead.”

2 Peter 1
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.*For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,*with whom I am well pleased,”*we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.*And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.*First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,*because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The story of Job is also a good one to read!

“But where shall wisdom be found?
****And where is the place of understanding?
Man does not know the way to it,
****and it is not found in the land of the living.
The deep says, ‘It is not in me,’
****and the sea says, ‘It is not with me.’
It cannot be gotten for gold,
****and silver cannot be weighed as its price.
It cannot be valued in the gold of Ophir,
****in precious onyx or sapphire.
Gold and glass cannot equal it,
****nor can it be exchanged for jewels of fine gold.
No mention shall be made of coral or of crystal;
****the price of wisdom is above pearls.
The topaz of Ethiopia cannot compare with it,
****nor can it be valued in pure gold.

“Whence then comes wisdom?
****And where is the place of understanding?
It is hid from the eyes of all living,
****and concealed from the birds of the air…
…“God understands the way to it,
****and he knows its place.
For he looks to the ends of the earth,
****and sees everything under the heavens.
When he gave to the wind its weight,
****and meted out the waters by measure;
when he made a decree for the rain,
****and a way for the lightning of the thunder;
then he saw it and declared it;
****he established it, and searched it out.
And he said to man,
‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
****and to depart from evil is understanding.’”

 

[AnlytcPhil]

rcwitness: >>God cannot be imagined by men.<<

Then why is that not saying that “God”, “Fod”, and “Zod” are all alike in that none of the three rows of alphabet letters refers to anything that any man can imagine?

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness: >>God cannot be imagined by men.<<

Then why is that not saying that “God”, “Fod”, and “Zod” are all alike in that none of the three rows of alphabet letters refers to anything that any man can imagine?

You are speaking jibberish to me. I know some Portuguese, but I don’t know jibberish. Honestly, God is the name we use. He called Himself, “I am” to Moses:

Exodus 3
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

 

[AnlytcPhil]

rcwitness: >>But you said “God cannot be imagined by men”.<<

That is exactly the same as saying that the row of three alphabet letters “God” does not refer to anything that can be imagined by men. I agree that “Fod” and “Zod” are as you said, gibberish. (BTW “gibberish” starts with a “g”, not a “j”). But gibberish like “Fod” and “Zod” also do not refer to anything that can be imagined by man. So “God” is just like “Fod” and “Zod” in that none of the three rows of three alphabet letters refer to anything that can be imagined by men.

 

[jcrichton]

quarks are point particles. They are infinitesimals.<<

Hi, Phil!
…how do scientist know?:

A quark (/ˈkwɔːrk/ or /ˈkwɑːrk/) is an elementary particle and a fundamental constituent of matter. Quarks combine to form composite particles called hadrons, the most stable of which are protons and neutrons, the components of atomic nuclei.[1] Due to a phenomenon known as color confinement, quarks are never directly observed or found in isolation; they can be found only within hadrons, such as baryons (of which protons and neutrons are examples) and mesons.[2][3] For this reason, **much of what is known about quarks has been drawn from observations of the hadrons **themselves. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark)

…so quarks are known only as observations of hadrons… yet, they are spoken of as though science has verified the theory of quarks.

…you, it seems to me, accept science in its embracement of the unknown but reject God on the same basis that you embrace science… that’s a duality… you want a Believer to prove to you the existence of God while rejecting everything that God has offered as “unquantifiable labeling.”

…it is as though the wind hits your body but you reject it because it has been labeled “wind.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[AnlytcPhil]

jchrichton>>Hi, Phil! …how do scientist know?<<

I don’t say they know. Maybe they do and maybe don’t. That’s why I say
the best anybody can do is be ‘agnostic’ toward anything they have no
guarantee of the truth of.

Angel>>…you, it seems to me, accept science in its embracement of the unknown
but reject God on the same basis that you embrace science…<<

You’ve got me all wrong, Angel. I DO NOT accept science “in the embracement
of the unknown”. They can only show that their experiments and calculations seem
to bear out their claims. Scientists have made mistakes in the past and changed
their theories. That’s why they call them “theories” and not facts. Also I don’t do
anything labeled “reject God”. How could I reject that a row of letters “God” refers
to something just because I cannot imagine anything it could refer to.? It might
refer to something. I am only unable to imagine anything for “God” to refer to. I’m
like the Jesuits say, which you apparently agree with, I suppose. : They say:
“God is ineffable”. That is, “God” does not refer to anything
humans can imagine.

I can only speak of the row of alphabet letters “God” and its pronunciation because
that’s all I can imagine.

Angel>>that’s a duality… you want a Believer to prove to you the existence of God
while rejecting everything that God has offered as “unquantifiable labeling.”<<

No, no, Angel, as I said above, you’ve got me all wrong! I am an extreme skeptic.
I am simply incapable of making a leap of faith, whether in science or religion. One thing I cannot help but believe is that no matter how hard I choose for something to be true, my choosing to believe or to disbelieve it isn’t going to make it true if its false, nor false if its true. So please try not to accuse me of rejecting or accepting anything when I know of no reason to do either. After all that’s exactly what I’m accusing YOU GUYS of doing. Thanks.

 

[rcwitness]

jchrichton>>Hi, Phil! …how do scientist know?<<

I don’t say they know. Maybe they do and maybe don’t. That’s why I say
the best anybody can do is be ‘agnostic’ toward anything they have no
guarantee of the truth of.

What is your measure for “best”?
We say the best thing one can do is believe and give thanks to God for giving us life through Jesus.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

I don’t measure “best”. You like to get picky with words, I see. OK, I’ll change my wording to:

I don’t say they know. Maybe they do and maybe don’t. That’s why I say the only thing that I can think of that anybody can honestly do is be ‘agnostic’ toward withhold judgment on anything they have no guarantee of the truth of.

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t measure “best”. You like to get picky with words, I see. OK, I’ll change my wording to:

Ok. You’re mind is the measure of your judgment. When Jesus asked the Apostles who they say He is, and Peter said, “the son of the living God”, Jesus said to him:
Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

rcwitness:>>Ok. Your mind is the measure of your judgment.<<

Indeed. Even if you decide to reject your own judgment and accept somebody else’s judgment instead, you nevertheless used your own judgment to make the decision that the other person’s judgment was superior to your previous judgment. Thus I say your mind is your ONLY POSSIBLE measure of your judgment.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:>>Ok. Your mind is the measure of your judgment.<<

Indeed. Even if you decide to reject your own judgment and accept somebody else’s judgment instead, you nevertheless used your own judgment to make the decision that the other person’s judgment was superior to your previous judgment. Thus I say your mind is your ONLY POSSIBLE measure of your judgment.

But your conclusion and destination can be greatly affected. We say that our judgment is assisted by grace to turn to His judgment. Our free will is respected and active, but our soul goes away from carnal to spiritual.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

But your conclusion and destination can be greatly affected. We say that our judgment is assisted by grace to turn to His judgment. Our free will is respected and active, but our soul goes away from carnal to spiritual.

I go to the UMC church and so I know you guys say that, but I am not able to because I don’t know of anything for “God” “His” above] or “soul” to refer to. I don’t know of any reason to believe they refer to anything at all. They may, but I surely have no idea of anything they could refer to. Why do you think they refer to anything?

 

[rcwitness]

I go to the UMC church and so I know you guys say that, but I am not able to because I don’t know of anything for “God” “His” above] or “soul” to refer to. I don’t know of any reason to believe they refer to anything at all. They may, but I surely have no idea of anything they could refer to. Why do you think they refer to anything?

Because the testimony of Scripture and the Church, and natural reason about creation, and the gift of faith to hear His voice and recognize my Lord. I could tell you something everyday that gives me reason to believe. His Spirit convicts me of my soul’s trespass against God, and His Gospel convinces me that He knows and has provided a means to reconcile me to Him. My children make me see that I have a duty to be an example of faith to and for them. Do you have children?

 

[AnlytcPhil]

Because the testimony of Scripture and the Church, and natural reason about creation, and the gift of faith to hear His voice and recognize my Lord. I could tell you something everyday that gives me reason to believe. His Spirit convicts me of my soul’s trespass against God, and His Gospel convinces me that He knows and has provided a means to reconcile me to Him. My children make me see that I have a duty to be an example of faith to and for them. Do you have children?

I see that you haven’t paid any attention to anything I’ve said about how we learn the word “creator”, and why “God” and “soul” make no sense to me. We extreme skeptics just can’t talk with people who leaps of faith, and pay no attention to reason. You don’t explain anything.

 

[rcwitness]

I see that you haven’t paid any attention to anything I’ve said about how we learn the word “creator”, and why “God” and “soul” make no sense to me. We extreme skeptics just can’t talk with people who leaps of faith, and pay no attention to reason. You don’t explain anything.

You have asked my reasons for belief. I have shared. You don’t care why, you only want to doubt. This is why I attempted to part in peace. But you do not have peace, because you are in chains to flesh and blood. You admit to being a skeptic, and demanding what you regard as “proof”. I don’t rely on the same principles as you. I have listened to you. You are very complicated, and deceitful to your faith community. I don’t admire that. But I don’t wish to condemn you for it, but tried to help.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

You have asked my reasons for belief. I have shared. You don’t care why, you only want to doubt. This is why I attempted to part in peace. But you do not have peace, because you are in chains to flesh and blood. You admit to being a skeptic, and demanding what you regard as “proof”. I don’t rely on the same principles as you. I have listened to you. You are very complicated, and deceitful to your faith community. I don’t admire that. But I don’t wish to condemn you for it, but tried to help.

I ask for your reasons why you believe that any of those sounds you utter like “God”
and “spirit”, “soul” make any sense. And all you can do is utter what is to me equivalent to “I believe in the Bible because all colorless green ideas sleep furiously”. Then when I say you aren’t telling me why you believe you are making sense, you say the equivalent of:

“I told you why I believe I am making sense, it’s because the vertebral silence indisposes the licit projectivity”. So I told you why. You don’t care why. You only want to doubt."

Let’s talk about “wanting to doubt”. Look, no matter how hard I want to choose to believe or how hard I want to choose to doubt something, if I tried to choose to, I would fail. That’s because I can only believe that my choosing to believe or doubt it could have no effect on whether it is true or false. That’s what prevents me from doing what you do with “God”-talk and “soul”-talk

My question to you is really "Why do you believe that you’re making sense when you say ‘God’ and ‘soul’? What you’re doing is speaking what makes no sense to me, and when I ask you why you think it makes sense to you, you just spout some more stuff that make no sense to me.

If you ever hope to do any Catholic Christian apologetics, [like Peter Kreeft, http://www.peterkreeft.com/home.htm with whom I had a long private snail mail conversation with years ago. He’s pretty good], you have to talk to a non-(what you call a Christian) in language that the non-(what you call a Christian) understands. You’ve got to talk their lingo. Not keep speaking “God”-talk and “soul”-talk to them as though they knew what you’re talking about. If you expect to get any converts, you must realize that they are wanting to know why you think you’re making sense with your God-talk and soul-talk. So don’t jabber back something else that makes no sense to them.

 

[rcwitness]

I ask for your reasons why you believe that any of those sounds you utter like “God”
and “spirit”, “soul” make any sense. And all you can do is utter what is to me equivalent to “I believe in the Bible because all colorless green ideas sleep furiously”. Then when I say you aren’t telling me why you believe you are making sense, you say the equivalent of:

“I told you why I believe I am making sense, it’s because the vertebral silence indisposes the licit projectivity”. So I told you why. You don’t care why. You only want to doubt."

Let’s talk about “wanting to doubt”. Look, no matter how hard I want to choose to believe or how hard I want to choose to doubt something, if I tried to choose to, I would fail. That’s because I can only believe that my choosing to believe or doubt it could have no effect on whether it is true or false. That’s what prevents me from doing what you do with “God”-talk and “soul”-talk

My question to you is really "Why do you believe that you’re making sense when you say ‘God’ and ‘soul’? What you’re doing is speaking what makes no sense to me, and when I ask you why you think it makes sense to you, you just spout some more stuff that make no sense to me.

If you ever hope to do any Catholic Christian apologetics, [like Peter Kreeft, http://www.peterkreeft.com/home.htm

with whom I had a long private snail mail conversation with years ago. He’s pretty good], you have to talk to a non-(what you call a Christian) in language that the non-(what you call a Christian) understands. You’ve got to talk their lingo. Not keep speaking “God”-talk and “soul”-talk to them as though they knew what you’re talking about. If you expect to get any converts, you must realize that they are wanting to know why you think you’re making sense with your God-talk and soul-talk. So don’t jabber back something else that makes no sense to them.Apparently Peter Kreeft did not do any better than I, as far as convincing you. But I’m not trying to do that. Only God can convert. I told you, I don’t know your language. It is foreign to me. I am sharing why I believe. But I am done now. All I can hope is that something g I said might ring like a bell in the future. But you are demanding what I cannot offer you. It’s within your own body mind and soul. Peace.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

Apparently Peter Kreeft did not do any better than I, as far as convincing you. But I’m not trying to do that. Only God can convert. I told you, I don’t know your language. It is foreign to me. I am sharing why I believe. But I am done now. All I can hope is that something g I said might ring like a bell in the future. But you are demanding what I cannot offer you. It’s within your own body mind and soul. Peace.

Don’t fib. Of course you know my language. It’s secular English. Don’t say you don’t know secular English. All you have to do is speak without using “God”-talk and “soul/spirit”-talk. Tell me what “God” refers to without speaking as though I already knew what it refers to .

 

[rcwitness]

Don’t fib. Of course you know my language. It’s secular English. Don’t say you don’t know secular English. All you have to do is speak without using “God”-talk and “soul/spirit”-talk. Tell me what “God” refers to without speaking as though I already knew what it refers to .

Why don’t you talk with your pastor? I admit that I am not very good with non-believers. It’s not the English I don’t understand, but your expression and thought. It doesn’t make much sense to me. Hopefully someone else can decipher or relate and talk using the analogy of thought you use. It’s probably not me. I speak to those seeking God. You don’t seem to be seeking God, to me.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

Why don’t you talk with your pastor? I admit that I am not very good with non-believers. It’s not the English I don’t understand, but your expression and thought. It doesn’t make much sense to me. Hopefully someone else can decipher or relate and talk using the analogy of thought you use. It’s probably not me. I speak to those seeking God. You don’t seem to be seeking God, to me.

How could I be doing anything called “seeking God” if I can’t imagine anything that “God” could refer to? No I can’t talk to my pastor about it. It would ruin everything. I do hate being so different from everybody else, and staying in the closet and pretending to be like everybody else religiously when I’m not. Also I can’t even talk to atheists. They believe “God” refers to “a flying spaghetti monster” or “an old man in the sky” like the old man Michelangelo painted on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and labeled “God”. When I tell them that “God exists” makes no sense to me, and therefore neither does “God does not exist”, they want no more to do with me. They enjoy having a god named “God” to disbelieve in, to put down, and to laugh at. So I can’t associate with atheists either.