What is “everything”? Seems to me like it’s a big facade, that has little value. Not saying you don’t have any good benefit from it. But if you can’t be honest, you resort to dishonesty. And it’s not only to man, but the Person whom is worshiped by this community. If you have no concept of that Person, it further supports the need to be open about it with them.
Yes it’s a facade, but I’m not hurting anybody. You may label it “dishonest”, but I don’t label it “immoral”. I contribute financially to my church. It’s a great social club. I love the people there. I’m not going to do anything that would make them look down their noses at me – I’d become somebody “of the devil” – a hypocrite in the church! They believe that you can choose to believe that something that makes no sense to you can refer to something that you can’t imagine. They’d accuse me of “rejecting God”. I don’t know how to believe that “creator of the universe” makes any sense. How can you learn the word “creator”. Only from cases like “Edison was the creator of the incandescent lamp, a crude light bulb”. “One thing in the universe is the re-arranger of some matter in the universe in a useful way”. And if you say to them “Who do you say created God”, they answer “God needed no creator because he always existed”. That’s saying “God is the creator of everything but God”. But that’s a circular definition because it defines “God” in terms of “God”. But that’s defining nothing at all.
When you say, “I’m not hurting anyone”, you are using your own measure to judge that. But you aren’t alone in this body that you are participating with, and associating with, and communing with. They hold Jesus to be “the measure” and, most likely, Scripture. St Paul tells us that sin affects the whole body, to some degree. But if I was a member, I hope I would be sympathetic to your struggles. What I would not be sympathetic to is deceit. Furthermore, you are determining them to be uncharitable if they knew your struggle. You are judging them, while you yourself are tresspassing. Be honest. It is a form of confession.
Yes, who’s hurt?
I agree with all the moral teachings of Jesus in the Bible.
I don’t think you would be. You’d say “Excommunicate that evil no-good hypocrite that has sold his soul to Satan”.
You can label it “deceit”. I don’t. What they don’t know about me can’t possibly hurt them.
They wouldn’t understand. I’ve tested the reaction of random people outside my church. You’ve stuck around me longer than most when I’ve told them
You can label me a “trespasser”, but I help out musically.
No way. They’d be too condescending.
Hi, Phil!jchrichton>>Hi, Phil! …how do scientist know?<<
I don’t say they know. Maybe they do and maybe don’t. That’s why I say
the best anybody can do is be ‘agnostic’ toward anything they have no
guarantee of the truth of.
Angel>>…you, it seems to me, accept science in its embracement of the unknown
but reject God on the same basis that you embrace science…<<
You’ve got me all wrong, Angel. I DO NOT accept science “in the embracement
of the unknown”. They can only show that their experiments and calculations seem
to bear out their claims. Scientists have made mistakes in the past and changed
their theories. That’s why they call them “theories” and not facts. Also I don’t do
anything labeled “reject God”. How could I reject that a row of letters “God” refers
to something just because I cannot imagine anything it could refer to.? It might
refer to something. I am only unable to imagine anything for “God” to refer to. I’m
like the Jesuits say, which you apparently agree with, I suppose. : They say:
“God is ineffable”. That is, “God” does not refer to anything
humans can imagine.
I can only speak of the row of alphabet letters “God” and its pronunciation because
that’s all I can imagine.
Angel>>that’s a duality… you want a Believer to prove to you the existence of God
while rejecting everything that God has offered as “unquantifiable labeling.”<<
No, no, Angel, as I said above, you’ve got me all wrong! I am an extreme skeptic.
I am simply incapable of making a leap of faith, whether in science or religion. One thing I cannot help but believe is that no matter how hard I choose for something to be true, my choosing to believe or to disbelieve it isn’t going to make it true if its false, nor false if its true. So please try not to accuse me of rejecting or accepting anything when I know of no reason to do either. After all that’s exactly what I’m accusing YOU GUYS of doing.Thanks.
No. I was just talking to whomever it was who said that scientists claim that quarks have no size. That’s not what they claim. They do claim they have size. 'Course I never know for certain that scientists are right. They have theories that seem to work. As I pointed out, they only call them ‘theories’, not ‘truths’. I’m not sure there are any quarks, but maybe there are. But I think all scientists have shown is that assuming them jibes with their experimential measurements and calculations.
I’m sorry but I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Theoretically somebody could count the feathers, but why would anybody want to and where are you going with this?
No, you’re confusing (1) “the existence of a Spirit” with (2) “the coherence of the term ‘Spirit’”. One must determine (2) before (1) will become coherent. I’m still working on (2).
I have no idea of what you are talking about. Why don’t you tell me what you think you mean by “Spirit”. You might as well be saying “bliffle” to me as to say “spirit”. I can’t imagine anything that “bliffle” could mean, and similarly, I can’t imagine anything that “spirit” could mean, either. But I don’t reject that you might be talking about something that I have idea about.
Sorry, I don’t accept or reject anything that hasn’t been proved or disproved. I also don’t accept or reject anything that I have no concept of.
Why is that a problem for you?
I agree. I have no conception or preconception of anything you could be talking about.
Neither do I. We agree on something. Hooray!
Why do you mistake my “I have no idea of anything you could be talking about” for “I know what you’re talking about but I reject it”? I neither accept nor reject anything that I don’t understand. If you have a revelation, then why not reveal it to me? It seems that you just want to accuse me of “knowing exactly what you’re talking about and rejecting it”. You want to think that anybody who doesn’t have the ability to leap to faiths without any reason to do so (other than desiring for it to be true), as ‘rejecting’. Nothing could be farther from the truth!
I would say they do so because they define ‘physical universe’ as ‘whatever exists’. Do you claim to define “God” like this: “God is the creator of everything but God”?
First, your relationship with God. Second, Jesus, who suffered for the forgiveness of sins. Third, your community, who is weakened because you are not walking in faith. You will strengthen your community’s faith when your own faith is strengthened. I said before, Christianity is not a passive religion.
This is not true. Again, your deceit is even deceiving yourself.
Well neither of us can know. All we can see, is the relationship we have, here. I definitely think you should refrain from Communion, unless you believe in the Gospel! I could never excommunicate anyone. You cant sell to Satan, what already belongs to him. Though, if you were Baptized, it did belong to Christ. When were you Baptized?
1 John 1
Ask them for patience and love. Be humble. But accept that you cannot receive Communion unless you believe and trust in Jesus, as the Lamb of God. I will stick with you, but you have to stop lying to yourself and others.
What does your service have to do with it?
I think you will, when you no longer care about men’s jugement, but our Father in Heaven.
Remember, I think we are all evil. Honestly, I don’t doubt I have sinned worse than you. But who knows?
Ya know, I have gone long periods without receiving Communion when my heart and mind isn’t right with God. I still go to Mass, and pray. I still allow Him to heal me. Asking that you refrain from Communion is not ex-communication.
Hope you have a good Thanksgiving as well.
I actually know a lot of people just like you so you’re not as closeted as you think
Well I must stay in the closet down here in the South, because my experience has told me that if I say to a fellow church person “I don’t know how to imagine anything that the row of 3 alphabet letters ‘God’ could refer to”, they don’t hear me. They think I said or implied “I have chosen to disbelieve in and to reject God!”.
Well I must stay in the closet down here in the South, because my experience has told me that if I say to a fellow church person “I don’t know how to imagine anything that the row of 3 alphabet letters ‘God’ could refer to”, they don’t hear me. They think I said or implied “I have chosen to disbelieve in and to reject God!”.
Can you imagine a cat? If so then you understand what I mean by “imagining something for a row of 3 letters to stand for or represent”. The row of three alphabet letters is “c”,“a”,“t” – written in a row. I can imagine a cat, and so can you. That’s a case of imagining something for a certain row of letters, “cat”, to refer to. But neither of us can imagine anything for the row of 3 alphabet letters “Zuf” to refer to. So if you are unable to imagine anything for the row of 3 letters “Zuf” to refer to, then you now know what I mean when I say I am unable to imagine anything that the row of three alphabet letters “God” to refer to. Now do you understand what I am saying?