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wildlifer
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One wonders just what you think things SHOULD look like after millions of years of evolution. A bunch of “stuff” that doesn’t work together?
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AnAtheist
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:yup:, done that - #3
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_Christopher
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AnAtheist said:
What faith you have…wow.
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AnAtheist
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_Christopher_:
It is not faith I have, it is confidence in scientific methods and ongoing research. Well, I suppose you could call it faith…
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Drew98
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I vote for #1.
#4 seems incomplete. What is this “something outside of itself” and how do you explain it’s existence?
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Drew98
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I would argue that’s exactly what he was saying. That if you die a nonbeliever and it turns out God does exist then you are damned to hell. Therefore, one should “bet” on the existence of God to avoid that fate (and get into heaven to boot).
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AnAtheist
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Not possible. The universe is expanding for fact. Therefore it must have a beginning. You may assume a series of universes though, eternally expanding from and collapsing to a singularity. That depends on how much mass is here and how fast the universe is expanding. If the expansion is not sufficiently slowed down by gravity (= enough mass), so that the motion is reversed, the universe will expand until everything has evaporated into background radiation.
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Maggie
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Do you really think so? I tend to disagree with this conclusion… if you die a nonbeliever who has been searching for God but has not yet found Him, I don’t know that you are “damned to hell”… maybe I am incorrect, but I think we as humans tend to impose human judgment upon others… to be damned to hell (I think) requires rejection of God and knowledge and rejection of God’s Truth… to not know or believe in God doesn’t imply rejection, it implies a lack of knowledge. I do believe that He sees your search for the Truth. Were you to hear the call and reject it, that’s different than not hearing it or not finding Him.
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Katholikos
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Mortimer Adler, the most influential American philosopher of the 20th century, became a Catholic in December, 1999, at the age of 97. He taught the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas all of his life, but lacked the gift of faith. Founder of the Aspen Institute (for the exploration of philosophy) and another institute of philosophy in San Francisco, he was a professor of philosophy at U Chicago for many years and co-founder of the Great Books Program. He wanted to die in the arms of the Church whose philosophy he knew so well and had taught to so many.
He wrote many books, including How to Think About God. It’s out of print, but available on the Net from used book stores.
When I was an atheist I would not be moved – nothing could convince me, not logic, not proven miracles, nothing. I WAS DETERMINED NOT TO BELIEVE. I DIDN’T WANT TO BELIEVE. And no one can be convinced against his will.
I can’t logically explain how I became willing. I don’t know. I can only tell you that my Catholic grandmother 1100 miles away prayed her rosary for me and my family every day of her life for many years. One day my brain suddenly opened up and God poured the knowledge of His exitence into my head. And I stopped believing the absurdity that the universe made itself.
Ave Cor Mariae, Jay
He wrote many books, including How to Think About God. It’s out of print, but available on the Net from used book stores.
When I was an atheist I would not be moved – nothing could convince me, not logic, not proven miracles, nothing. I WAS DETERMINED NOT TO BELIEVE. I DIDN’T WANT TO BELIEVE. And no one can be convinced against his will.
I can’t logically explain how I became willing. I don’t know. I can only tell you that my Catholic grandmother 1100 miles away prayed her rosary for me and my family every day of her life for many years. One day my brain suddenly opened up and God poured the knowledge of His exitence into my head. And I stopped believing the absurdity that the universe made itself.
Ave Cor Mariae, Jay
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Traveler74
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“One wonders just what you think things SHOULD look like after millions of years of evolution. A bunch of “stuff” that doesn’t work together?”-wildlifer
I would expect if everything were given to chance then either “stuff” wouldn’t have happened at all or something catastrophic would have occured to the “stuff” and misaligned/destroyed everything. The fact it hasn’t degenerated into chaos suggests there is a planned natural order to these things. Of course these are all just theories and the absolute truth requires an understanding of the creator that we are just incapable of having. It would be the equivalent of trying to explain physics to a three year old.
re #3…spontaneous creation is not supported by science. Other than the Universe (which we disagree on), I would appreciate a case for the spontaneous creation of anything.
On a side note (since I’m weighin in)…Pascal’s wager is flawed in that it approaches salvation from the wrong angle. Belief in God is an all or nothing thing…not a hedge bet. I think the atheists very clearly see that. That explains why atheists, if they eventually do come to believe in creation and salvation, inevitably become some of the most steadfast, articulate and formidable defenders of the faith. Prime example would be St. Augustine. St. Augustine was a very successful lawyer and powerful philosopher who came to an acceptance of God based almost entirely of reason and logic. Powerful stuff. Sorry for the rambling but this is all very stimulating.
I would expect if everything were given to chance then either “stuff” wouldn’t have happened at all or something catastrophic would have occured to the “stuff” and misaligned/destroyed everything. The fact it hasn’t degenerated into chaos suggests there is a planned natural order to these things. Of course these are all just theories and the absolute truth requires an understanding of the creator that we are just incapable of having. It would be the equivalent of trying to explain physics to a three year old.
re #3…spontaneous creation is not supported by science. Other than the Universe (which we disagree on), I would appreciate a case for the spontaneous creation of anything.
On a side note (since I’m weighin in)…Pascal’s wager is flawed in that it approaches salvation from the wrong angle. Belief in God is an all or nothing thing…not a hedge bet. I think the atheists very clearly see that. That explains why atheists, if they eventually do come to believe in creation and salvation, inevitably become some of the most steadfast, articulate and formidable defenders of the faith. Prime example would be St. Augustine. St. Augustine was a very successful lawyer and powerful philosopher who came to an acceptance of God based almost entirely of reason and logic. Powerful stuff. Sorry for the rambling but this is all very stimulating.
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Traveler74
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Thank you Katholikos for the Thomas Aquinas reference.
Anyway…back to Drew98s original question about how to pray for a sign. IMHO don’t worry about the words, God knows what you meant and he knows exactly what you want/need. God will answer in his own time which is almost always guaranteed to not be on your time. In my past experience the answer probably won’t be in the form you expected and it may require that you do a lot of searching first. It’s not for us to understand this stuff…it’s beyond us. He is omniscient, we are not. He’ll answer you how and when it is the right time…until then I guess you’ll just have to keep searching and praying. Bottom line is I don’t think you need to worry about the format of your prayers…just keep asking.
Anyway…back to Drew98s original question about how to pray for a sign. IMHO don’t worry about the words, God knows what you meant and he knows exactly what you want/need. God will answer in his own time which is almost always guaranteed to not be on your time. In my past experience the answer probably won’t be in the form you expected and it may require that you do a lot of searching first. It’s not for us to understand this stuff…it’s beyond us. He is omniscient, we are not. He’ll answer you how and when it is the right time…until then I guess you’ll just have to keep searching and praying. Bottom line is I don’t think you need to worry about the format of your prayers…just keep asking.
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Drew98
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Maggie, I think you misunderstood. I wasn’t stating my own opinion I was stating what Pascal’s Wager says. If you can be a nonbeliever and still avoid hell when you die the Wager argument kind of falls apart.
I agree.
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Drew98
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That’s what I had in mind. Except I think of it as a single universe expanding and contracting while you call it a “series of universes”.Drew98:
Not possible. The universe is expanding for fact. Therefore it must have a beginning. You may assume a series of universes though, eternally expanding from and collapsing to a singularity.radiation.
I guess what we need now is a good definition of the word “universe”.
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Paul_Pignal
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This Forum is one of the ways God speeks to us. We are his hands and feet, his eyes and voice to paraphrase St. Therese. He has given us a visible Church and Father figure, all that is required of us is to humble ourselves enough to submit to the truth as revealed all around us.Do yourself a favor and pick up a book on the lives of the Saints,this should help you understand a little clearer how God answers prayers.
Peace
Paul
Peace
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dolffn
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“Not Possible” is a pretty bold statement in regard to cosmological theory. Most cosmologists do accept the big bang theory, but of course it has not definitively been proven. A couple of other competing theories include plasma cosmology and quasi-steady-state model. I personally feel that the big bang makes the most sense given the evidence and my understanding of it, but others are certainly not limited to that view,
~Mike
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Maggie
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Oh, I’m sorry!! I never put a lot of stock in that wager stuff, so I didn’t follow those posts very closely, I apologize. Believing in God for the sole purpose of not going to hell never really convinced anybody of anything or did much for anyone’s relationship with Him as near as I can tell. It would be like growing up with a drunk father… you might learn to say yes when he asked a question, but it wouldn’t be done out of respect or love it would be done to avoid a beating. If you are searching for God, I don’t think you’ll find Him that way.
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PaulAckermann
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This is a very superfiscial dismissal of this option. Let’s take for the sake of argument, that there is a God. At the time of Jesus, the Pharisees were just like you, demanding from Jesus some sort of sign:
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
-Matthew 12:38-40
After all the miracles that Jesus produced for them, the Pharisees were not satisfied. They demanded more signs. This merely angered Jesus. After all the miracles he prodiced, they were not satisfied.
God has already given signs of His existence. Look around you. Look at all creation. There is intricate design within all creation which shows His existence. If that is not enough, look at all the Old Testament prophesies fullfilled in Jesus. If that is not enough, look at the Resurrection of Jesus. Eyewitnesses who testified of seeing Christ after His death were totured and killed. If this was a hoax, why would they die for something they knew was not true?
to be continued
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PaulAckermann
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(from previous post)
But let’s not stop there. God, in His mercy, chooses to reveal Himself to us throughout the centuries. Take a trip to Lanciano, Italy. In the 8th century, the priest was praying for God to show him whether the Eucharist was a the real body and blood Christ. During the consecration of Mass, the host turned into a piece of tissue. It is still intact and at display. Scientists at the time of Pope Paul VI, studied this tissue and attest to its authenticity. Drew, if you want a sign, take a trip to Lanciano, Italy. It is there for you to see.
God has show His existsence through the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Take a trip to Lourdes. Even to this day, people go to Lourdes and are healed. The Catholic Church has declared that they are 70 healings that are worthy of belief. There are many more healings than that, but the Church is careful not to declare a healing to be a miracle. For instance, if a person was receiving any kind of treatment, the Church would give the benefit of the doubt that it was not a healing. There are 70 cases in which no natural explanation can be given.
Or take a trip to where St Beranadette of Lourdes is on display. Although she died 150 years ago, her body has still not decayed.
Or if that is not convincing for you, take a trip to Fatima. Here the Virgin Mary appeared to three children. In 1917, Mary prophesied that World War I would end soon, but that a greater war would happen after that. She also said that the biggest threat to world peace would come from Russia. Remember, the children spkoe about this way before anyopne would consider Russia to be a menace. She prophesied that once the Pope in union with all the other bishops consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, Russia would depart from its errors. Pope John Paul II did just that, and a year later the Soviet Union was dissolved.
But if that is not enough look at the miracle of the sun “dancing in the sky” that Our Lady produced. This was witnessed by 70,000 people! Even people would were not at the site testified that this phenomeon happened. This experience of the sun was even reported by the newspapers.
But let’s not stop there. God, in His mercy, chooses to reveal Himself to us throughout the centuries. Take a trip to Lanciano, Italy. In the 8th century, the priest was praying for God to show him whether the Eucharist was a the real body and blood Christ. During the consecration of Mass, the host turned into a piece of tissue. It is still intact and at display. Scientists at the time of Pope Paul VI, studied this tissue and attest to its authenticity. Drew, if you want a sign, take a trip to Lanciano, Italy. It is there for you to see.
God has show His existsence through the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Take a trip to Lourdes. Even to this day, people go to Lourdes and are healed. The Catholic Church has declared that they are 70 healings that are worthy of belief. There are many more healings than that, but the Church is careful not to declare a healing to be a miracle. For instance, if a person was receiving any kind of treatment, the Church would give the benefit of the doubt that it was not a healing. There are 70 cases in which no natural explanation can be given.
Or take a trip to where St Beranadette of Lourdes is on display. Although she died 150 years ago, her body has still not decayed.
Or if that is not convincing for you, take a trip to Fatima. Here the Virgin Mary appeared to three children. In 1917, Mary prophesied that World War I would end soon, but that a greater war would happen after that. She also said that the biggest threat to world peace would come from Russia. Remember, the children spkoe about this way before anyopne would consider Russia to be a menace. She prophesied that once the Pope in union with all the other bishops consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, Russia would depart from its errors. Pope John Paul II did just that, and a year later the Soviet Union was dissolved.
But if that is not enough look at the miracle of the sun “dancing in the sky” that Our Lady produced. This was witnessed by 70,000 people! Even people would were not at the site testified that this phenomeon happened. This experience of the sun was even reported by the newspapers.
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PaulAckermann
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Drew, for the life of me, I cannot see how God speaking to you in a small voice would be more convincing to you than these. If you think that 70,000 were merely hallucinating when they saw the sun dance in the sky, then why would you not believe that you yourself was not merely hallucinating if God were to appear to you?
God in His mercy has appeared to us under His terms, not under ours. And usually He does not appear to somwone unless at a tremendous cost. Jesus said to him much is given, much more is expected. The apostles were priviledged to see the Risen Christ, but they were called to give up their families and their careers to preach the gospel throughout the world, and deventually to even give up their lives for the faith.
God spoke in that small voice to Augustine, but that was only through constant prayers by his saintly mother, St Monica. Also, this revelation came to Augustine to Augustine, himself. He broke off with his mistress and became a monk.
When the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to the Bernadette, she warned her that her appearance would come at a great cost. Bernadette would experience great suffering. Mary said the same thing to the children at Fatima.
Drew, I have greate doubts that God will ever choose to reveal Himself to you in the way that would meet you satisfaction. No offense at this, but Jesus taught us not to throw pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6). God’s revelation is holy, and God would not waste it on those who would trample it under their feet. Do some soul searaching, Drew. If God were to reveal Himself to you, how much would you give up for Him. Would you become a celibate? Would you become a missionary? Would you renounce all you worldly possessionsand give to the poor? To him much is given, much is required. God’s revelation does not come without a great price.
God in His mercy has appeared to us under His terms, not under ours. And usually He does not appear to somwone unless at a tremendous cost. Jesus said to him much is given, much more is expected. The apostles were priviledged to see the Risen Christ, but they were called to give up their families and their careers to preach the gospel throughout the world, and deventually to even give up their lives for the faith.
God spoke in that small voice to Augustine, but that was only through constant prayers by his saintly mother, St Monica. Also, this revelation came to Augustine to Augustine, himself. He broke off with his mistress and became a monk.
When the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to the Bernadette, she warned her that her appearance would come at a great cost. Bernadette would experience great suffering. Mary said the same thing to the children at Fatima.
Drew, I have greate doubts that God will ever choose to reveal Himself to you in the way that would meet you satisfaction. No offense at this, but Jesus taught us not to throw pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6). God’s revelation is holy, and God would not waste it on those who would trample it under their feet. Do some soul searaching, Drew. If God were to reveal Himself to you, how much would you give up for Him. Would you become a celibate? Would you become a missionary? Would you renounce all you worldly possessionsand give to the poor? To him much is given, much is required. God’s revelation does not come without a great price.
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Drew98
Guest
Paul, thanks for such a comprehensive answer to my question. I won’t have time get into it much today. Hopefully, over the next few days I can respond to most of your points.Drew98:
This is a very superfiscial dismissal of this option.
The key to my objection above is the notion that God wants to have a “personal relationship” with every one of the human beings he has created. Two-way conversation, if possible, is an essential part of any personal relationship. If I could establish such a relationship the question of God’s existence would no longer be an issue. I would not need any “signs”.
Is the idea that God wants a personal relationship with all of us just a Protestant thing? Or is it consistent with Catholicism as well?
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