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LilyM
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But heaven isn’t static. God himself isn’t, on our understanding of him, so why would heaven be?
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Urf
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If you think about it that’s really only 1 more hell destination than any Christian has on his (her) list
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Mirdath
Guest
As I believe in neither a heaven nor a hell nor any other concept of an afterlife, no. If I’m wrong, I’d hope to be graded on intent.
The afterlife is eternal, therefore timeless or outside time; without time there is no change.
By the way, I’m pretty sure that to say that God is not static is a contradiction in terms for Catholics. If God is mutable, he must needs move from one state to another; yet only one state is Perfection, and God must be Perfect. If God thinks, he moves from incomplete knowledge to fuller knowledge, which is incompatible with omniscience. If God moves, he is not omnipresent because motion requires place within a larger frame of reference, and no such thing can exist for God. And if God changes, he is not omnipotent because it implies that he had a less than full range of action at some point. Mutability requires imperfection.
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exiled
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Mirdath,
I’ve got to admit, I am impressed with the way you have handled yourself here.
I only read one of your posts weeks ago and realized that your life view scared me in its darkness (for lack of a better term) so I’ve avoided you since.
But, I read this thread with interest and I wanted to tell you how reasoned and respectful you have been here, and I appreciate it. Although, not having read the other threads, I could be wrong?
I’ve got to admit, I am impressed with the way you have handled yourself here.
I only read one of your posts weeks ago and realized that your life view scared me in its darkness (for lack of a better term) so I’ve avoided you since.
But, I read this thread with interest and I wanted to tell you how reasoned and respectful you have been here, and I appreciate it. Although, not having read the other threads, I could be wrong?
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Suat
Guest
I think that believing in a god out of fear of eternal damnation is pretty a pretty poor reason. So no, I am no more afraid of going to your hell then you are of going to any of the hundreds or thousands of hells that you do not believe in.
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water
Guest
That is correct. As a Christian, he should yearn for God out of love.
The reason a person is not afraid of going to Hell because he doesn’t know he has a soul.
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TOP
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Mirdath, I had this experience in my 13th week of chemo. The sensation of blackness, then vertigo with an ever increasing “weight” crushing me. I soon realized I was dieing and the terror would continually increase without end forever. Something inside me said to “get up”. I fought very hard to come back to consciousness. As soon as I did I went into a panic attack. I still had tunnel vision and vertigo for a while afterwards. For two years afterwards I convinced myself that the reason it was so terrible was because I fought death so hard. That if I had just let go I would have just slipped into death and that would be the end of everything. I lost my faith. Then in 2005 I crashed into despair. Tired of the constant testing, cat scans , bloodwork, living month by month not knowing what was next. I decided suicide was better then living like this. I was like, what does it matter, there is nothing after death anyways. As I was getting up from the couch to get a .45 pistol, I got hit with the same sensation, but this time with images. I totally lost my mind seeing what I would suffer. All that came to mind was God help me and that is what I screamed. He did, it all stopped in an instant. The love and awe I felt was a 1000 times more powerful then watching a child birth. Pure joy. God loved me,saved me even though I had done some very bad things in my life. Mirdath, I know how you feel about this subject, but when your time comes,just call out for Him. Tim
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Mirdath
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What post of mine did you see?Mirdath,
I’ve got to admit, I am impressed with the way you have handled yourself here.
I only read one of your posts weeks ago and realized that your life view scared me in its darkness (for lack of a better term) so I’ve avoided you since.
But, I read this thread with interest and I wanted to tell you how reasoned and respectful you have been here, and I appreciate it. Although, not having read the other threads, I could be wrong?
I can sound bleak sometimes but I’m actually not – I’m horrifyingly idealistic and bizarrely optimistic. I like being happy and I’m not afraid to work for it. This post sums up a lot of my worldview.Darkness doesn’t have to be sour or bleak. Like dark chocolate or a good night’s sleep. It’s just how I dress
Thanks
I can see where chronic illness would be a far more draining experience, physically, mentally, emotionally, even spiritually than mine; I’ve never had to deal with that first-hand (second-hand, yes). But in the end those of us who aren’t already dead are going to be dealing with it somehow. I don’t know how I’m going to react, given that my experiences with death aren’t really comparable, but I don’t see myself getting religion so much as depending even more on my loved ones (they’re going to have so much fun with that… my sweetheart is already threatening to short-sheet my hospital bed 
)
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CherryBomb
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When I was an atheist I just believed you died and that was it. It never made me sad or anything. And it didn’t cause me to not care about people. 
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
perhaps static is a poor word for Heaven. Although static would describe hell, as growth and life and love is non existant. Unless degradation could be accounted for change, but it would be like changing around a room but the elements are the same old sofa and chairs.
whereas Heaven would be the opposite. As the Creator God probably would not stop doing so, growth, life and love would continue.
Theres a whole universe to explore. I would think adventure should appeal to atheists, perhaps there is a coffee shop at the other end
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Mirdath
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If so, it’s not an afterlife but a mere ‘other life’. Change implies both imperfection and an end, neither of which are attributes of heaven. This ‘other life’ is something I wouldn’t mind. Eternity, I’ll pass on.
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CCM08
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Again, this is simply illogical and betrays a deep lack of philosophical understanding. In your world you can make up whatever source of authority you want and act accordingly. Hence Adolf Hitler’s morality was right because that’s what he created based on those things he accepted as morality. The same can be said for any individual. The concept of morality is by right a religious notion. There is no logical way to declare moral absolutes inside of atheistic world views. There is simply no rational way to declare any action “right” or “wrong.” Your little comment about having a right to life and property with the execption of marxist reveals just how non-existant atheist morality is. At best you’ve got a barbaric concept that dictates you can do whatever you want as long as you’re powerful enough to do it. In short, might makes right. Such beliefs are hostile to moral concepts, as such the best an atheist could be is amoral.
I really hate to break it to you but unless your part of the .0001 percent of human elites (and you’re not) nothing you do has any ramifactions in the world while you’re alive, let alone afterwards.99.999 percent of the population spends 1/3 or more of their lives working to just get enough resources to survive and the largest bulk of the world’s population doesn’t have much success with that. Another 1/3 asleep somewhere accounting right there for the greatest bulk of a human’s existence in the atheist world view. What you really mean to say is that you find it neccessary to delude yourself into believing there is meaning to your life which in reality is pointless in the grand scheme of things because the reality is your world view requires it. I’m a realist and that requires accepting that just like everybody else this world does not require me. Getting grounded and having to dig up deluded and silly meanings from the things of this world is a pointless and illogical task. True meaning is found only when a person can rise above this pointless and brief stay in an imperfect world.
Actually, you’ve made some asinine statements that have no grounding in fact. So contrary to the statement that you’ll well educated in Christian theology you’ve displayed that you know little to nothing about it. Reading inane atheist rantings that profess to explain Christianity, if you even done that, hardly makes for an understanding of Christian theology. I’m sorry, but someone busy with the occassional drug overdose is hardly going to have time for study the Christian theology, or any other type. The reality is a person like you is an atheist to excuse their poor behavior, it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with a faith you don’t even understand. So am I going to reexamine my understanding of Christian theology because a drug addict who admitts to repeated overdoses says I’m wrong? Of course not, that would be idiotic. It’s rather like being asked to reexamine your understanding of mutual funds because a crack whore things you’re wrong.
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Mirdath
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And take responsibility for it, instead of passing the buck to God or Satan. I am the author of my own actions and do not deny that. Why make up a god for your moral authority when you yourself are perfectly capable of it?
If the people around Hitler had had the moral strength to be responsible themselves, he would never have come into a position where his dangerous beliefs could affect others. And don’t even try passing him over to the non-theist side; he was a Christian (and at least claimed Catholicism, starting from his youth as an altar boy) and promoted his religious as well as his secular beliefs rather vigorously in his usual way.
Read Kant. The Categorical Imperative does not depend on the existence of a god or on the truth of religion, and it’s excruciatingly reasoned out. And it’s not the only such philosophy of morals.
Are you even capable of discussing this without resorting to ignorant ad-hominems and insults? You’ve obviously not thought this through at all, and using big words like ‘barbaric’ (
) aren’t making you sound better-educated on the subject.I’m not? That’s what you think… And even assuming I’m not, what changes I can make to the face of the earth don’t matter at all. Meaning in life is not about who can leave the biggest dent, it’s deeply personal and does not have to have any obvious effect after you’ve passed on.
What grand scheme? There doesn’t have to be one. As for true meaning, I’m doing fine without your approval or a god’s. Just because I’m not looking to be raised up on eagle’s wings doesn’t mean I can’t transcend the mundane every second in my own way.
Junkie, Hitler, check. I’m going for the hat trick! You missed ‘queer’, try better next time.
And if that crack whore (thanks for the comparison, it’s a new one!) happens to understand the markets and economics, I’d listen. It’s more common than you’d think.
Oh, by the way, I’m agnostic, not atheist; and as I pointed out at the beginning of this post, I don’t excuse anything about my behavior. I take full blame for my wrongdoings and full credit for my righteousness – and there’s a lot of both.
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
(not looking at the other conversation happening just looking at this one (just to keep this part straight hope that makes sense)
Yes “other” life is a good way to put it. Thats why what we do and are, is still what we are, on this “other side”. As for the term Eternity I think it will have no meaning, because the old has passed and it will be new.
Actually thats why we “accept” Christ and let our “old” person pass away and decide a new way. And go on to this “other” life.
Apparentely we are strangers here hoping to go to the home we should have been at. This life on earth is a drop in the bucket compared to what can be.
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
But a atheist or agnostic is capable of understanding Truth when it comes across their path. Truth stated
It’s perfectly rational to claim that all have a right to life and to property
This is Truth, then the rest is discussion on the authority of the Truth. Before you get annoyed CCM with me, please consider Truths source. One cant have Truth here and God over there, they are one and the same. Just because the speaker does not know the source does not take away the reality of the Truth.
Truth is there for all to see, and accept or reject.
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TOP
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Slowly dieing is a very lonely experience. Even surrounded by loved ones and prayers. No one can die for you. Jesus was the only one who did that. He is hope and trust at that time. You will have to trust your loved ones to Him. Control is taking completely away from you. I hope you find Him, TimI don’t know how I’m going to react, given that my experiences with death aren’t really comparable, but I don’t see myself getting religion so much as depending even more on my loved ones (they’re going to have so much fun with that… my sweetheart is already threatening to short-sheet my hospital bed
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cheddarsox
Guest
coming late to this discussion, but adressing the OP. I’m a pantheist, so I have no concept of deity, though I have a religion.
Most Christians classify me as an atheist, so I thought I’d jump in.
I believe that all consciousness ceases at physical death. No soul or spirit lives on. Sometimes I fear that, and feel sorry that I won’t go on forever. But I look at the universe, and know that it really doesn’t matter. It’s not about me, and that is good.
I had a near death experience shortly after the birth of my second child, I hemmoraghed and was bleeding to death. I experienced what I always refer to as the “Great OK-ness”. Not God, just that it was OK to die, as it had once been OK to live. It is the way of things. I did have a sense of being able to choose to die or to come back, and I thought there was no way my very young husband could raise those very young kids without me, so back I came.
At that point in time I was still a Christian, but none of that came up during the near death experience.
People die, even really important people, and the world goes on. It will go on without me. My time is now. My time to live, love, make an impact, feel, struggle and all that good stuff. Then I will pass and it will be someone else’s time. A beautiful system.
Knowing this is all there is has served to make me appreciate it more, live harder and take more risks…not just stupid risks, but realy meaningful risks…to speak honestly, love recklessly, and make each moment count. Because I believe that this is the only life for any of us, I try to make it the best it can be for others as well.
After death, will be like it was before conception…I will not exist. And that was OK too.
cheddar
Most Christians classify me as an atheist, so I thought I’d jump in.
I believe that all consciousness ceases at physical death. No soul or spirit lives on. Sometimes I fear that, and feel sorry that I won’t go on forever. But I look at the universe, and know that it really doesn’t matter. It’s not about me, and that is good.
I had a near death experience shortly after the birth of my second child, I hemmoraghed and was bleeding to death. I experienced what I always refer to as the “Great OK-ness”. Not God, just that it was OK to die, as it had once been OK to live. It is the way of things. I did have a sense of being able to choose to die or to come back, and I thought there was no way my very young husband could raise those very young kids without me, so back I came.
At that point in time I was still a Christian, but none of that came up during the near death experience.
People die, even really important people, and the world goes on. It will go on without me. My time is now. My time to live, love, make an impact, feel, struggle and all that good stuff. Then I will pass and it will be someone else’s time. A beautiful system.
Knowing this is all there is has served to make me appreciate it more, live harder and take more risks…not just stupid risks, but realy meaningful risks…to speak honestly, love recklessly, and make each moment count. Because I believe that this is the only life for any of us, I try to make it the best it can be for others as well.
After death, will be like it was before conception…I will not exist. And that was OK too.
cheddar
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TOP
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This thread is painful to read. I wish there was something I could say to make it click. Tim
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Mirdath
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I’m getting distinctly bad vibes from a certain direction, but that doesn’t particularly faze me.
Anyway, may I ask you something? What is so bad, to you, about the idea that this life is all we’ve got? Let’s set aside religious belief for a moment, assume for the sake of discussion that I’m right that it is impossible to know for certain whether there is a God or an afterlife. Even without firm knowledge of those, would you be inclined to hope that there is an afterlife – an afterlife of which you couldn’t know the nature?
T
TOP
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For me the veil between this world and the the next is becoming more and more translucent. I have some concerns in this world ,but not many. I feel during my conversion experience I was giving a taste of the good along with the bad and a choice. I yearn for the good experience again. It was that amazing. But on the other hand, the bad was so terrifying to me , I can’t explain it enough. I don’t want to experience that ever again. Part of me wishes it all ceased to exist after death, that there is no hell, but I know in my heart something different. If none of this had happened to me , I would still be making my own world, not to concerned about an afterlife. I was a soldier training to be an airborne ranger. I could care less if I lived or died then. But now everything is different. I know there are consequence’s. I’m not trying to send bad vibes at all, I’m just desperate to tell others there is something else after death. Tim
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