atheists : this is the best way to determine if god exists or not , a new way , see if it is right for yourselves dear friends ...

[tonyrey]

That’s an inapplicable question . The term “atheist” is a label for those that don’t hold a belief in a “god.” The term “god” itself is ambiguous by itself so there’s a number of other terms that are used to label how many gods one thinks exists and the relationship that the god or gods have with the universe. None of these labels (atheist, deist, monotheist, theists, polytheist, pandeists, so on) imply a specific value system. People to which the same label is applied may have different value systems. People to which different labels are applied may have similar value systems.

I’m of the opinion that the only way to get to know some one’s values is to get to know the person. Even if the person declares a religion to which you associate certain values a person may not conform to those associations. You would have to get to know the person to know what in what he or she finds value.

If an atheist doesn’t believe in the value of reason atheism is valueless - and may be safely ignored!

 

[tonyrey]

You seem to think arguments from causality need to reject infinite regression; but, there are arguments from causality that don’t touch on that issue: they employ different premises.

How can infinite regression be evaded?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

If an atheist doesn’t believe in the value of reason atheism is valueless - and may be safely ignored!

One that is considered an atheist may or may not place value in reason. With the label alone you have as much information for determining the person’s value in reason as you have in determining the person’s favourite colour or what the person had for dinner 3 nights ago.

 

[tonyrey]

One that is considered an atheist may or may not place value in reason. With the label alone you have as much information for determining the person’s value in reason as you have in determining the person’s favourite colour or what the person had for dinner 3 nights ago.

It’s a waste of time discussing anything with an atheist why doesn’t value reason! Nor does s/he consistently have a reason for being an atheist…

 

[tonyrey]

It’s a waste of time discussing anything with an atheist why doesn’t value reason! Nor does s/he consistently have a reason for being an atheist…

I should add that the value of reason isn’t a matter of taste like our favourite colour or food but a necessity if we are to be reasonable…

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I should add that the value of reason isn’t a matter of taste like our favourite colour or food but a necessity if we are to be reasonable…

The truth is, there is no truth, and the truth of that truth is that there is no truth behind the symbol which defines all truth; and the truth of that truth which is not true is the truth that is true in light of that which is true and not true at the same time.

Behold!! Citizens of the planet earth i have here before your very eyes a square-triangle!!! Believe it!!! It is scientific fact. :hypno:Science is the master of all knowledge:hypno:.

OUT OF NOTHING COMES THE UNIVERSAL SOMETHING. You must believe this because we atheists are more intelligent than you!

 

[Groundhog_Day]

… my dearest friends ,

… it seems a lot of atheists come here and seem all too oft to really want to know if god exists , so i thought of a new way for them to test the water that can work , trying to believe in god on an intellectual basis is usually inadequate and they and oft believers have trouble with this more or less …

… but there is a better way to find the answer , and i believe those relying on the purely intellectual proofs don’t know it , i’m proposing a way of discerning if god is real or not based on experience , stick with me and let me explain …

… for instance , let’s say the man is anyone and the girl is god in this story , but it can be vice versa , it works best like this to explain though , a man meets a girl , he is interested and wants to know more about her , he talks to the girl and over time gets to know her , as time rolls on he builds a relationship with the girl , but in the relationship it is not all roses , sometimes bad things happen , love ones become sick and die , friends died in an earthquake , the man got sick , he experienced sadness and suffering and even felt abandoned by the girl and lonely at times when he was arguing with her , there were thorns amongst the roses in the relationship , it was not all heaven on earth …

… but the man through thick and thin stuck by the girl , and through the passage of time began to love her , but the man wanted to know if the girl loved him too , so he asked her if she did , and she said yes , i’ve always loved you , did you not know that ??? , the man asked her to prove it as he was not sure , the man pointed out all the bad things that happened in the relationship and enquired why ??? , she explained , when your loved ones were sick and died i was always there by your side to comfort , console and support you , i never left your side through thick and thin , when your friends died in the eathquake i was there again , never abandoining you for an instant , when you were sad or suffering i never ceased trying to relieve your burdens and give you joy , cheer and hope , the only reason you were lonely is because you pushed me away but the instant you asked me to come back i did , you see through thick and thin i have been there for you no matter what or how bad things got , all the while i have shown you i love you , i did not tell you much but by my deeds i have been the only person all this time that truly loved you and showed it and proved it to you , do you believe i love you now the girl said ??? …

… the man reflected and saw it was all true , he believed in the girl and knew she loved him , the girl had not only said it she had proven her love for him , the man then proposed to the girl , and she having reflected decided to say yes , he is a good , kind and loving man and i love him , they were married …

… during marriage she like all good wives began to chip away the rough edges from the man , but all the while out of love and she never stopped loving him , over time the man was upset , why is nothing ever good enough for you said the man , the wife said i am just doing what any good wife does and helping you become the best man you can be , she explained it all to him and the man reflected and could see how much he had improved , and he loved his wife still more even though it was not all roses …

… she was the love of his life and without her he now knew life itself would not be worth living , the couple lived to an old age and never ceased to love and help each other , the man now very elderly and dying needed his wife like never before , and she as usual never let him down , she was his nurse and constant loving companion the whole time , the one thing the man was most grateful for in his last hours was the wonderful wife he had found and the endless love and good times they had , the thorns disappeared as he contemplated the roses , and he was eternally grateful …

… i’m sure you see what i’m saying , you need to experience god to truly know god , god is divine love and to know god you must know divine love , the example uses human love but divine love transcends human love , human love gives us a glimpse of divine love , gods loving fatherly providene and help in our life through thick and thin is his proof of his love for us , and god is that love he has for us , god is love , but more so divine love …

… and no matter if it be roses or thorns we see or experience in life gods divine love is always there , god is not responsible for the thorns but he carries us if there are too many to cope with , the marriage is symbolic of spiritual or mystical marriage which all in grace achieve partially , and when all the rough edges are knocked off us we achieve it fully – saints …

… it doesn’t explain all but tries to put the emphasis on learnng about , believing in and loving and trusting god through experience of god , experience divine love and you experience god , words are cheap and hollow , actions speak volumes and in the end they are all that counts , try to discover god this way through experience and i believe this is the correct way god wants man to get to know him and believe in him and trust and love him , this is how god wants to have a relationship with each man , trying to understand and know and believe in god through intellectual knowledge is rather flimsy , develop a relartionship with god like this and through personal experience you come to know him , try it dear friends …

… may god bless and love you all ,

… john …

Yikes. Everyone here knows that a god can neither be proved nor disproved. That is well established. Belief is a matter of “faith”, otherwise known as fantasy and wishful thinking.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Yikes. Everyone here knows that a god can neither be proved nor disproved. That is well established. Belief is a matter of “faith”, otherwise known as fantasy and wishful thinking.

Gods general metaphysical attributes can be proven to exist.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

I can’t discern an argument here. I mean, I understand that you take these laws of physics to support supernatural creation; but, I’m not sure why.

These laws only apply in isolated systems, you’d need to show that the universe is an isolated system. Further, you’d need to show that it began to exist. Your comments above do neither. Even if you were able to accomplish these, the atheist can still say it’s possible the universe began to exist without a cause.

… my dear friend ,

… in my opine the universe has not had a beginnnmg as something can only begin or end in time , and there is no time in our world , time which is a measure of change is an illusion of necessity as we cannot exp our whole eternity all at once , but it exists in " now " which is eternity that has no beginning , end or middle , god must create all " now " in " now " and not over time as there is no time with god , something can come and go in " now " though , but always remains eternal in eternity – hard to fathm but true i feel …

… the universe is something and something cannot come from nothing , it must come from something , that something must be the most absolutely infinitely pefect something that can possibly be , we call this god , but the universe is imperfect no doubt and does not fulfill the requirement to be this ultimate something and is not this ultimate something , i refer you to post # 27 and i remind you god is spiritual and not physical , so spiritual proofs are in order but there are many physical miacles ypu can see , but to know god you must do this spiritually even if you come to know him thru reason , faith and reason are meant to be united as one in man when it comes to belief , man needs faith and not just knowledge …

… man must join dots with everything he believes too , your not going to get an infinite line of dots with no gaps and all possible knowlege and know about god for certain even with all conceivable intellectual proof , the fallen human mind has no problems with knowledge but the understanding and appreciation are shot to pieces , he has maybe 5 or 10% capacity , and that is very defective and faulty , this is why man cannot solve a single problem but just multiplies them imperpetuity , you must accept gaps between the dots and come to know god who is spiritrual love by exp as said …

… if mans mind was fully functional reason would work unimaginably better and it would be impossible for man to deny gods existence , without revelations he could not know all about god but he would know there is a god and much about him , and thru talking to him and exp he would learn so much , the loss of our reality and the pretenatural gifts has stuffed it up for man , why don’t you try the op ??? …

… i’ll be saying more about things like prayer and faith later that may shed light on why experiments with god fail for some , you may benefit from them when done ??? …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

After reading your OP, I was considering responding to it directly. However, reading through the thread, I noticed that Touchstone has already eloquently laid down the objections that I would have mentioned:

… my dear friend ,

… eloquence , i doubt , objections for sure , but what is the point of arguing , should we just not seek truth objectively ??? and i’m not oft seeing much of this which is normal human communication – problem solving as we seek truth …

On a similar note, your argument is an equivocation that starts with the assumption that a god exists. The equivocation is in comparing a claim about something inside one’s mind (whether the girl loves him) and whether something outside the mind that is in the real world if it exists (a god).

However, your response to him is something that I want to address:

Would lack of evidence be a good reason for not believing in a god?

… yes , of course it would , but if i tell you that i have a way for atheists to have proof of gods existence is it logical if they won’t accept i may be right and investigate ??? , wer’e not talking about fairies and goblins , god is something else , and the test needs rigorous guidelines to work mind you and i’ll pen these here soon , what evidence do you have for your faith of atheism ??? , and you have god / s , every human being does and cannot avoid it , it can be yourself , money or anything you choose and you don’t even know it , catholics have the true god they believe , that is the diff here …

Beliefs are compulsory, not volitional. One’s belief or non-belief in a god is not a choice just like one’s belief or non-belief that he is Napoleon is not a choice.

…belief is choice based on faith and reason , fallen man is beyond confused and defective , and his choices of beliefs determine who he is and not just what he believes , you are what you believe , if you believe in atheism yu believe in nothing and thus become nothing , if you believe in the christian god of love you become something like him – love , a better choice if you ask me , think …

Also, non-belief such as a-theism, by definition cannot be faith, which is the belief in something without evidence.

… i’ll have more to say on this and similiar subjects later here , but atheism is a faith based belief system , whilst it is based on belief in nothing , if nothing exists then nothing has become something , so it seems to me atheism is destined of absolute necessity to end in something – faith and belief in god , as nothing cannot exist , the nothing / ness of atheism will become the something / ness of god , eventually , true …

Actually, the philosophic burden of proof is on those who make the claim, not on those who do not accept the claim. In other words, the burden of proof is on those who claim that a god exists, not on those who don’t accept the claim that a god exists. Imagine if people claimed that fairies without evidence!

… that god exists is obvious and beyond dispute , the burden is on scientists and doctors to fix mans defective mind , and religion contributes fixing his heart , mind and soul also ,and the doc the body too of course , but if man is fully functional or reasonably so faith in god is impossible not to exist , man needs a booster shot of faith to believe in god now , and this is why some can’t believe , they have not had their booster shot , without it you will never believe , i’m showing how to gain the proper proofs for gods existence as god intends and wants – god is spiritual and proves his existence by spiritual means , reject that and that is totally illogical and irrational …

Atheism is not nihilism.

… in practise it may not appear so , but to a keen mind that really thinks it thru it is nihilism , i can say i’m a dolphin , but is it true ??? , no ,but i can say it , but you might know i’m wrong and try and help me by convinving me i’m not , just because you say something does not mean it is so or right dear friend …

I think a better way to write would be to use proper punctuation.

… are you god ??? , how do you know what is best or best for me ??? . maybe my way is better , i break the insane laws and rules in your head and offend you and you must punish me , stop and think , i know it is true dear friend , you are not my god …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

About the mechanics of faith and prayer and how it works , it may give some insight as to why prayer of petition sometimes fails in experiments like the op mentions …

God is the Ultimate Good Thought and all Thought emanates from the Ultimate Good thought which is God , Reality for us = correspondence with this Thought . The more we cooperate and correspond to the Ultimate Good Thought the more we are in reality . The only thing that takes us out of reality is sin or evil . Being unnatural in other words …

… God is also the Ultimate Know and we are not just good thought’s emanating from God we are knows ( not know it all’s I hope ) , The Ultimate Know , knows what is best for us ,… and if we know what is good for us we will strive to correspond with what is best for us. When we pray we are knowing ,… and the more we know and correspond all our thoughts , words , and deeds with the Ultimate Knows , the more powerful our prayer will be . We know when we pray and the more we know the more powerful our prayer is . We alter reality by knowing the Ultimate Know , by praying and living in reality in other words. When we pray we know the Ultimate Know . When we know with all our heart , soul , mind and strength – we Know reality , and can alter it more or less depending on how we correspond to the Ultimate Reality which is God …

… the test comes in our faith , faith = knowing , and the more we know the greater our capacity to alter reality by knowing it , the more faith you have the more you know and the more you can alter reality simply by knowing it , and to do this you must know the ultimate know which is god , and one can ever know more and more …

… the q of why pray at all is another q and i’ll disuss it later or as any may want …

why do our prayers seem unanswered or answered differenly to what we ask ?
… my dear friends …

… i think it is because god does not hear our words , they are just mute sounds to him , he hears just sounds , when he reaDS OUR MINDS IT IS THE SAME BUT GETTING CLOSER TO WHAT WE WANT , BUT GOD READS OUR HEARTS AND IT IS THE PRAYER OF THE HEART HE ANSWERS …

… when jesus said a time is coming when men will no longer worship me on this mountain , but in spirit and truth - he was talking about our spiritual heart which only contains truth , our hearts are naked before god and only speak truth to god who is truth , god who s truth is heart and he dwells in our heart and we should talk to god heart to heart , the greater we conform our heart to the heart of god the more potent our prayer will be …

… we all need to repair our broken and fallen hearts and fill them with the grace of god which is heart , and when we become truly human - the human being we were always meant to be then we will be in perfect conformity with our heart - all masks , duplicity , falsehood , lies , two facedness , and all that is not truly us will disappear and then we will pray to god from the heart and know our prayer and our prayer will be answered , we just have to repair our heart and get in touch with our heart , this is why we get the wrong answer to our prayers so often - god reads our hearts and gives us what we truly want and need …

st augustine said " you have made us for yourself o lord , and our hearts are restless until they rest in thee " , we can rest our hearts in god now and let god rest in our hearts , and it is here we should talk to our dad god …

… so strip off everything inhuman and false and be true to your heart and god will grant your hearts desire , we know what we really want and need in our hearts - get in touch with your heart …

… the whole problem is with us , not god …

… may god bless and love you all ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

The truth is, there is no truth, and the truth of that truth is that there is no truth behind the symbol which defines all truth; and the truth of that truth which is not true is the truth that is true in light of that which is true and not true at the same time.

Behold!! Citizens of the planet earth i have here before your very eyes a square-triangle!!! Believe it!!! It is scientific fact. Science is the master of all knowledge.

OUT OF NOTHING COMES THE UNIVERSAL SOMETHING. You must believe this because we atheists are more intelligent than you!

… bravo dearest friend , you tell the truth that will set us free :clapping::extrahappy::bowdown2::bowdown::clapping:

 

[cerad2]

About the mechanics of faith and prayer and how it works , it may give some insight as to why prayer of petition sometimes fails in experiments like the op mentions …

God is the Ultimate Good Thought and all Thought emanates from the Ultimate Good thought which is God , Reality for us = correspondence with this Thought . The more we cooperate and correspond to the Ultimate Good Thought the more we are in reality . The only thing that takes us out of reality is sin or evil . Being unnatural in other words …

… God is also the Ultimate Know and we are not just good thought’s emanating from God we are knows ( not know it all’s I hope ) , The Ultimate Know , knows what is best for us ,… and if we know what is good for us we will strive to correspond with what is best for us. When we pray we are knowing ,… and the more we know and correspond all our thoughts , words , and deeds with the Ultimate Knows , the more powerful our prayer will be . We know when we pray and the more we know the more powerful our prayer is . We alter reality by knowing the Ultimate Know , by praying and living in reality in other words. When we pray we know the Ultimate Know . When we know with all our heart , soul , mind and strength – we Know reality , and can alter it more or less depending on how we correspond to the Ultimate Reality which is God …

… the test comes in our faith , faith = knowing , and the more we know the greater our capacity to alter reality by knowing it , the more faith you have the more you know and the more you can alter reality simply by knowing it , and to do this you must know the ultimate know which is god , and one can ever know more and more …

… the q of why pray at all is another q and i’ll disuss it later or as any may want …

why do our prayers seem unanswered or answered differenly to what we ask ?
… my dear friends …

… i think it is because god does not hear our words , they are just mute sounds to him , he hears just sounds , when he reaDS OUR MINDS IT IS THE SAME BUT GETTING CLOSER TO WHAT WE WANT , BUT GOD READS OUR HEARTS AND IT IS THE PRAYER OF THE HEART HE ANSWERS …

… when jesus said a time is coming when men will no longer worship me on this mountain , but in spirit and truth - he was talking about our spiritual heart which only contains truth , our hearts are naked before god and only speak truth to god who is truth , god who s truth is heart and he dwells in our heart and we should talk to god heart to heart , the greater we conform our heart to the heart of god the more potent our prayer will be …

… we all need to repair our broken and fallen hearts and fill them with the grace of god which is heart , and when we become truly human - the human being we were always meant to be then we will be in perfect conformity with our heart - all masks , duplicity , falsehood , lies , two facedness , and all that is not truly us will disappear and then we will pray to god from the heart and know our prayer and our prayer will be answered , we just have to repair our heart and get in touch with our heart , this is why we get the wrong answer to our prayers so often - god reads our hearts and gives us what we truly want and need …

st augustine said " you have made us for yourself o lord , and our hearts are restless until they rest in thee " , we can rest our hearts in god now and let god rest in our hearts , and it is here we should talk to our dad god …

… so strip off everything inhuman and false and be true to your heart and god will grant your hearts desire , we know what we really want and need in our hearts - get in touch with your heart …

… the whole problem is with us , not god …

… may god bless and love you all ,

… john …

It is becoming legitimate to talk of … invisible forces that shape creation - not labeling them as … God but as the true shapers of reality

… beyond the space/time continuum , a whole new field known as quantum biology has … sprung up , based on a true breakthrough — the idea that the total split between the micro world of the quantum ===
and the macro world of everyday things may be a false split,
… if so, science will have to account for why the human brain , which lives in the macro world , derives its intelligence from the micro ;;; world ,
… either atoms and molecules are smart , or something makes them smart, that something, I believe , will come down to a conscious universe —

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

It is becoming legitimate to talk of … invisible forces that shape creation - not labeling them as … God but as the true shapers of reality

… beyond the space/time continuum , a whole new field known as quantum biology has … sprung up , based on a true breakthrough — the idea that the total split between the micro world of the quantum ===
and the macro world of everyday things may be a false split,
… if so, science will have to account for why the human brain , which lives in the macro world , derives its intelligence from the micro ;;; world ,
… either atoms and molecules are smart , or something makes them smart, that something, I believe , will come down to a conscious universe —

… my dear friend ,

… thanks foryour (name removed by moderator)ut , i think all sciences incl religion , theology and philosophy will one day recognise and cooperate together as they should to give a total answer to all the big questions , i don’t personally believe in the space / time continuum , i don’t accept time exists at all – i think it is just a necessary delusion this change unfolding , i don’t believe light can bend , nor that space can bend , twist , warp , tear or be manipuated in any way under the laws of physics , i don’t accept there is any such thing as black holes either and consequently no other worlds to enter thru black holes …

… although my personal opine i think there must be infinite worlds with creatures apart from ours – maybe we’ll visit them in eternity ??? , eternity is a long time , if there was time !!! , i think the conscious universe you theorise is the equilibrium of god or gods will which is at work behind all in our world and beyond – it is behind all literally and cannot be seen but we see its handiwork everywhere …

… those are my thoughts dear friend , my understanding of the science is as a layman but my theories are sound i feel , though only explainable in lay terms …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[babylonsfalling]

You quoted my post first. The only reason why I’m on this thread is to respond to your allegations.<—REALLY?! I’m not captivated by Christians as it is that you are captivated by me, so much so you seem to be jotting down what label goes into my religious field.<—You don’t need to jot it down Bohm.

I find it hard to believe a person as assertive as you are wouldn’t enter his own religion into the descriptive field (which should take about 5 seconds, if even that). Unless of course there is something rotten in the State of Denmark, to quote Shakespeare. After all, aren’t you called to be a light of the world?

You don’t know me so you aren’t in the position to say how much of a Catholic I was. I find it ironic that you maintain that any Catholic that converts to atheism wasn’t much of a Catholic to begin with. That’s theologically untrue, even according to your book. A person can lose his faith, as faith is a gift from God (according to Catholics). To argue otherwise is in fact to be a Calvinist and to believe in the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. Didn’t St. Paul advise to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12)? You need to learn about what your religion teaches first before discussing the authenticity of another person’s religion. Come to think of it, I find your judgment about how authentic a Catholic I was as reminiscent of Jesus’ parable to take the log out of your own eye before noticing the speck in your brother’s eye. Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of Heaven - that includes you.

I’m not here on this forum to prove my atheism to anyone. Your assumption is flawed. I’m only here to email CAF friends, and I answer certain threads from time to time for various reasons - from helping to clear up misconceptions about the Church to offering my own personal opinion on a given matter. Freedom of speech is a great thing, isn’t it?

Actually Bohm, you aren’t here to answer my answer my allegations. You were here before I even stepped into this thread. From the looks of things you just wanted to be the first “atheist” to fall all over yourself denying what the OP (not me) said.

You don’t need to jot down notes about your wavering. You stand out as the one atheist on any site I’ve been to who can’t stop a very self evident type of wavering that’s apparent to anyone paying attention. Message board atheists who can’t stop hanging out on Christian site have always seemed very insecure in their atheism, it’s just that you exude that much more than other msg board atheists. Rather than fight that fact, or seek excuses or rationalizations for it, you might be better off just acknowledging it and then learning something about yourself from it.

I didn’t know that it even took an special assertiveness to type “Catholic” into the religion field, or that doing so necessarily had anything to do with making one into a “light of the world” Do you think a non Catholic can’t be a light of the world? Do you think you were a “light of the world” just because you did that for a brief period of time before going back once again to being an atheist?

 

[Flyingg]

The truth is, there is no truth, and the truth of that truth is that there is no truth behind the symbol which defines all truth; and the truth of that truth which is not true is the truth that is true in light of that which is true and not true at the same time.

Behold!! Citizens of the planet earth i have here before your very eyes a square-triangle!!! Believe it!!! It is scientific fact. :hypno:Science is the master of all knowledge:hypno:.

OUT OF NOTHING COMES THE UNIVERSAL SOMETHING. You must believe this because we atheists are more intelligent than you!

mmm isn’t ‘God’ the same? :’‘OUT OF NOTHING COMES THE UNIVERSAL SOMETHING.’’ Well the universe is visible and no doubts it exists while God(s) could possibly be imaginary beings made up by ancient civilizations to explain our existance.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

mmm isn’t ‘God’ the same? :’‘OUT OF NOTHING COMES THE UNIVERSAL SOMETHING.’’ Well the universe is visible and no doubts it exists while God(s) could possibly be imaginary beings made up by ancient civilizations to explain our existance.

… my dear friend ,

… can i refer you to post # 27 for some answers , but you make a great point i’ll touch on in brief :

… to all , why has man made so many versions of god / s ??? , does this not prove it is all superstitious nonsense man makes up to explain things or find meaning , answers etc ???

… yes , man has and is very superstitious all too oft with the god / s he creates , and man has created endless gods from his very beginnings such as stars , cows , cats , statues , pictures , men have been made gods and really the list is too long , but we know there is a lot …

… the problem came when man ruptured his relationship with god in the beginning when adam and eve fell , if this had not happened man would be perfect in a blissfully perfect paradise here and have a perfect relationship with god even talking to god and would know the true god in a friendly personal basis none know in this delusional mess we’re now in …

… man once fallen was eventually scattered throughout the world and lost most of his knowledge of the true god , some of this knowledge was passed on verbally from generation to generation in the old testament of the bible , it is very simplistic because it had to be memorised and handed down this way , but few knew this knowledge of the true god and in any case this revelation of god was rather small , god is way beyond the human and completely unkowable to man , but we know a bit thru reason and faith nd some revelation …

… but most men scattered throughout the world lost this vital knowledge , man is by nature a very religious being and must have a god / s and be spiritul and use faith along with reason – all this is inherent in human nature and man cannot escape this , i’ll show how even atheism is like this later too , but man had to have answers , how did all this get here , what is it’s purpose ad what iis my purpose , where do i go when i die , who and what is god , and related topics ??? , what is the meaning and purpose if everything , does anything have any value ??? , man had to answer these questions or he would go insane , he had to know …

… but having lost the knowledge in not just desperation but abbsolute need beyond his power to control he invented god / s and the necessary faith and beliefs that went with his religion and this was to fulfill his spiritual needs , so in ignorane man invents gods to avoid going insane really – it is as simple as that …

… but in time god made abraham the father of the jews and revealed much about himself and after about 2,700 yrs god sent his son into the world assuming a human nature an god became man and gave a mountain of revelation about god , established the catholic church and suffered and died for man to redeem him , it’s not a complete explaination but gives a quick insight into this big question …

… so please don’t compare the true god to things like fairies and pixies and goblins and other superstitious or fantasy beings , and try to understand the history of religion a bit better please , and don’t ridicule catholicism which is the true original authentic christianity just because there has been many superstitious and fictional gods , catholicism stands out as pefectly logical and reasonable among all religions having all the answers man wants from religion – it is not silly at all ,

… but god is not cruel and for all men of good will he heard their prayers regardless of religion , he still does this , god does not hold genuine ignorance in man aainst him , in 12 step ptogtams tons of atheists get involved and are told they need a higher power , if they don’t like the god word they are told to make a higher power – their son , a coffee mug or anything , and you know over time they experience gods powerful provodence working in their lives from this higher power , and they almost always end up believing in god , it oft takes time , it varies , but god will go with you if you must use the same sort of approach , god is not cruel , he is love , think about it dear friends …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[Flyingg]

… my dear friend ,

… can i refer you to post # 27 for some answers , but you make a great point i’ll touch on in brief :

… to all , why has man made so many versions of god / s ??? , does this not prove it is all superstitious nonsense man makes up to explain things or find meaning , answers etc ???

… yes , man has and is very superstitious all too oft with the god / s he creates , and man has created endless gods from his very beginnings such as stars , cows , cats , statues , pictures , men have been made gods and really the list is too long , but we know there is a lot …

… the problem came when man ruptured his relationship with god in the beginning when adam and eve fell , if this had not happened man would be perfect in a blissfully perfect paradise here and have a perfect relationship with god even talking to god and would know the true god in a friendly personal basis none know in this delusional mess we’re now in …

… man once fallen was eventually scattered throughout the world and lost most of his knowledge of the true god , some of this knowledge was passed on verbally from generation to generation in the old testament of the bible , it is very simplistic because it had to be memorised and handed down this way , but few knew this knowledge of the true god and in any case this revelation of god was rather small , god is way beyond the human and completely unkowable to man , but we know a bit thru reason and faith nd some revelation …

… but most men scattered throughout the world lost this vital knowledge , man is by nature a very religious being and must have a god / s and be spiritul and use faith along with reason – all this is inherent in human nature and man cannot escape this , i’ll show how even atheism is like this later too , but man had to have answers , how did all this get here , what is it’s purpose ad what iis my purpose , where do i go when i die , who and what is god , and related topics ??? , what is the meaning and purpose if everything , does anything have any value ??? , man had to answer these questions or he would go insane , he had to know …

… but having lost the knowledge in not just desperation but abbsolute need beyond his power to control he invented god / s and the necessary faith and beliefs that went with his religion and this was to fulfill his spiritual needs , so in ignorane man invents gods to avoid going insane really – it is as simple as that …

… but in time god made abraham the father of the jews and revealed much about himself and after about 2,700 yrs god sent his son into the world assuming a human nature an god became man and gave a mountain of revelation about god , established the catholic church and suffered and died for man to redeem him , it’s not a complete explaination but gives a quick insight into this big question …

… so please don’t compare the true god to things like fairies and pixies and goblins and other superstitious or fantasy beings , and try to understand the history of religion a bit better please , and don’t ridicule catholicism which is the true original authentic christianity just because there has been many superstitious and fictional gods , catholicism stands out as pefectly logical and reasonable among all religions having all the answers man wants from religion – it is not silly at all ,

… but god is not cruel and for all men of good will he heard their prayers regardless of religion , he still does this , god does not hold genuine ignorance in man aainst him , in 12 step ptogtams tons of atheists get involved and are told they need a higher power , if they don’t like the god word they are told to make a higher power – their son , a coffee mug or anything , and you know over time they experience gods powerful provodence working in their lives from this higher power , and they almost always end up believing in god , it oft takes time , it varies , but god will go with you if you must use the same sort of approach , god is not cruel , he is love , think about it dear friends …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

John, what you are presenting has no scientifical or logical backup, so all Gods are made up except yours? Mmm and you are bringing Eve and Adam old story and failure as an absolute truth, how can you be sure it’s not a mythology? I think it is! PS: I don’t worship my coffee mug even if it exists

 

[tonyrey]

John, what you are presenting has no scientifical or logical backup, so all Gods are made up except yours? Mmm and you are bringing Eve and Adam old story and failure as an absolute truth, how can you be sure it’s not a mythology? I think it is! PS: I don’t worship my coffee mug even if it exists

Do you have an alternative explanation of reality?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

John, what you are presenting has no scientifical or logical backup, so all Gods are made up except yours? Mmm and you are bringing Eve and Adam old story and failure as an absolute truth, how can you be sure it’s not a mythology? I think it is! PS: I don’t worship my coffee mug even if it exists

… my dear friend ,

… i consider myself scientific and logical and thus am my own backup , do i need anything else ??? , atheism and indeed all faiths have the same dilemma , i cannot explain all my beliefs let alone prove any of them , can you prove any of your beliefs dear friend ??? , my beliefs are based on faith backed up and supported by much reason , i don’t need an outside source i trust to confirm my beliefs , i know truth when it hits me square in the face , you may not but i do …

… i’m not saying all is black or white , in fact there is much grey – actually all is grey when you dig deep enough , but i’m not bothered by my and alls inability to prove this or anything because i understand and appreciate fully how the human mind is meant to and must work , the thrust of this thread was to try and draw atheists outside their heads where they want god to be proven and rather to venture outside of themselves into gods world and seek him as he desires , the normal path …

… if your stuck in a delusional mind full of fantasy and imagination and in all charity insanity too you are going to have difficulty finding god , god is not in your mind and you will not find him there , god is in your heart if you truly seek him and it is there he can reveal himself to you , refuse to play the game as god intends is up to you , but you lose in the end …

… intellectual knowledge does not = belief in god , perfect faith backed up by reason and the possession of perfect love in man = inability to disbelieve in god , go outside your mind for a while and seek god there , your intelligence will fail you because your mind is far too defective to compute the data properly , no matter how much data you have …

… god is love , get to know divine love and you’ll know god , forget your ability to solve the problem , you cannot , instead let god solve it for you , that is the challenge in the op , and remember i am my own scientifixc and logical reliable source here , i don’t need others although they can be and are useful for sure dear friend …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …