atheists : this is the best way to determine if god exists or not , a new way , see if it is right for yourselves dear friends ...

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John_Russell_Jr said:
… my dear friend ,

… i consider myself scientific and logical and thus am my own backup , do i need anything else ??? , atheism and indeed all faiths have the same dilemma , i cannot explain all my beliefs let alone prove any of them , can you prove any of your beliefs dear friend ??? , my beliefs are based on faith backed up and supported by much reason , i don’t need an outside source i trust to confirm my beliefs , i know truth when it hits me square in the face , you may not but i do …

… i’m not saying all is black or white , in fact there is much grey – actually all is grey when you dig deep enough , but i’m not bothered by my and alls inability to prove this or anything because i understand and appreciate fully how the human mind is meant to and must work , the thrust of this thread was to try and draw atheists outside their heads where they want god to be proven and rather to venture outside of themselves into gods world and seek him as he desires , the normal path …

… if your stuck in a delusional mind full of fantasy and imagination and in all charity insanity too you are going to have difficulty finding god , god is not in your mind and you will not find him there , god is in your heart if you truly seek him and it is there he can reveal himself to you , refuse to play the game as god intends is up to you , but you lose in the end …

… intellectual knowledge does not = belief in god , perfect faith backed up by reason and the possession of perfect love in man = inability to disbelieve in god , go outside your mind for a while and seek god there , your intelligence will fail you because your mind is far too defective to compute the data properly , no matter how much data you have …

… god is love , get to know divine love and you’ll know god , forget your ability to solve the problem , you cannot , instead let god solve it for you , that is the challenge in the op , and remember i am my own scientifixc and logical reliable source here , i don’t need others although they can be and are useful for sure dear friend …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
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Where does God exactly fit in my heart? John you are only saying poetries and tricking me emotionaly, only words that proves nothing. OK God is love, what’s next? So God now is a quality that describes a certain behavior.
 
Flyingg said:
Where does God exactly fit in my heart? John you are only saying poetries and tricking me emotionaly, only words that proves nothing. OK God is love, what’s next? So God now is a quality that describes a certain behavior.
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… my dear friend ,

… the appropriate q is how do i and my heart fit into god ??? , and i’m talking about your spiritual heart and not the physical one , the spiritual heart is said to be at the very centre of man and few really venture there or even know about it – let alone what is in there or how to understand what is in there …

… it is right throughout all creation we discover god irrrefutably if we can really see it and know , understand and appreciate it , true , we know there’s a god via endless means and ways through all creation , but to really get to know , understand and appreciate god you must encounter him in your heart , providence increases faith and helps and strengthens the relationship , but god = love and it is only in mans spiritual heart that he can really get in touch with this divine love and learn about it – and learn more and more eternally …

… i am not trying to trick you emotionally wiith poetic words that prove nothing , you can say what you like dear friend , but that does not mean your right , you can be mistraken , has this occured to you yet ??? , god is totally unknowable to man , but we can figure out a little bit , but in reality we will never really scratch the surface with god for all eternity …

… the spiritual heart is the part of us that can come to know , understand and appreciate this divine love best , it can receive and understand and appreciate infinite truths unlike the mind , love is a misunderstood word , it has wider meanings than human emotions or will or chemical reactions or lust , saying god = love is inadequate but humans need to try and understand god in human language , concepts and symbolism …

… the spiritual heart can absorb endless amounts of what i call infinite symbolic boundless symbolism , love is one such thing , the human mind cannot grasp these things very well at all , and we should be grateful we know anything about god because if he did not reveal anything about himself we would know next to nothing , but for god to explain himself so hopelessly inadequately to help man is rather beyond gratuitous …

… god is beyond infinite and you really get to know him heart to heart thru experience , are you scared to try ??? , if you are then don’t , but are you scared stiff you’ll find you made a mistake trying ??? , are you too proud to allow yourself the possibility of making a mistake ??? , all humans must make mistakes as they learn from trial and error – think on this , no mistakes or trial and error and how much would humanity have advanced in all this time compared to now ??? , not much if your honest …

… make an experiment of it and take it seriously , the worst is you’ll make a mistake and learn , why when it comes to god and religion are no mistakes allowed in the normal human learning process ??? , it is totally illogical and makes no sense , what is the great objection and immense fear with god ??? , think and try an experiment , but god is a real person and is not keen on those who embark on such a venture totally insincerely , be open and humble and really try and keep it up and it will work , up to you …

… the scientific logical approach and method is what i’m suggesting with these experiments , try to think clearly and see that dear friend …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
Flyingg said:
OK God is love, what’s next? So God now is a quality that describes a certain behavior.
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No. God’s existential nature is that which defines and gives objective meaning to moral behavior.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
No. God’s existential nature is that which defines and gives objective meaning to moral behavior.
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How?
tonyrey said:
What causes everything to exist?
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Personaly, I don’t know. Should my lack of knowledge brings me back to delusional answers, old mythologies and personal gods? I have reasons to dismiss them all. In another point, what causes anything to exist including a God?
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Been there, done that. I spent slightly over a year going to Mass regularly; praying the rosary and novenas; regular confession; reading about the lives of the saints; even went on the World Youth Day just over a month ago - ultimately to the conclusion that there is no God.

So I’m not searching for what does not exist, and I speculate that’s the same for a lot of other atheists that roam these boards.
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If you try to search to find God or to know whether God exists, then there is bound to be failure. Many of the eastern religion sages have tried to do just that and they have only found false gods, probably demons masquerading as gods and on their teachings have been built religions which have myriads of gods all different from each other.

If you want to experience God, then what he has revealed about himself in the Bible has to be accepted by faith. Faith is the first requirement for a deep experience with God. It is the condition to meet God. If you are willing to first have faith then God will allow you to experience him and then you don’t require anything else to know him. When you experience the quenching of your thirst by water then you don’t have to do anything else to search for the thing called water. Without knowing that water is H2O, You know that water exists and it exists by its being able to quench your thirst and satisfy you. So throw yourself into the hands of Jesus who loved human beings created by his Father, the Creator, so much that he left his heavenly glory and came to this earth knowing that he would have to die a miserable death to atone for the sins of mankind. And yet he did that because of his love for humanity. If you want to see the misery which Jesus must have experienced, see Mel Gibson’s ‘The Passion of the Christ’ film. What Jesus actually experienced must have been worse than that, because experience is something which cannot be fully described in words or with any other media

Another lucid example: If one wants to experience the ultimate joy of sexual orgasm, one cannot do that by just reading about it or trying to intellectually experience it. The best way to do that is experience it in the ultimate end of love making with a girl whom you love and that is enough. After experiencing it then you can go into the mechanics of studying how it happens etc etc. That is what you do when you experience God first and then do all things like praying, studying Scripture etc. You simply accept Him first at his Word and then allow Him to give you His experience. And after that you do all that you have to do to know him better and better.
 
Flyingg said:
What causes everything to exist?
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Personaly, I don’t know. Should my lack of knowledge brings me back to delusional answers, old mythologies and personal gods? I have reasons to dismiss them all.Your objections to other explanations are based on ignorance if you don’t have an explanation!
. In another point, what causes anything to exist including a God?
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God is not a God but the God, i.e. the Ultimate Reality. It doesn’t make sense to ask what causes the Creator to exist because it is obviously beyond the comprehension of creatures with limited intelligence…
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tonyrey said:
God is not a God but the God, i.e. the Ultimate Reality. It doesn’t make sense to ask what causes the Creator to exist because it is obviously beyond the comprehension of creatures with limited intelligence…
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You are judging me that my thoughts are based on ignorance by not having an answer whether a god exists or not, still you said that knowing what causes the creator is beyond our intelligence. We are actually having a common point, about not knowing everything in our existence yet, but what I know and have reasons for and think to be true are enough to dismiss spebific gods or the ‘absolute truth’ in any religion. Most atheists are agnostic atheists.
 
tonyrey said:
God is not a God but the God, i.e. the Ultimate Reality. It doesn’t make sense to ask what causes the Creator to exist because it is obviously beyond the comprehension of creatures with limited intelligence…
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Our being finite in comprehension has little to do with it.

God is the very act of reality by which all other beings have an act. A thing either has the reason for its existence in its own nature (its nature is as such that it is impossible for it to not exist) or in the nature of something else (if its nature is only potential and not necessary). The universe is the sum total of its potential parts (it evolves into reality), and thus cannot by definition be the reason for its own existence (its parts are not logically/metaphysically necessary). Thus it follows that ultimately the universe has its origin in that which necessarily exists according to its nature, and because its entire nature is necessarily real it is not made up of potential parts. This necessary entity is therefore existentially complete in its being (this is to say it does not evolve, and thus does not change). If a being is complete and necessary in every-way, then it cannot possibly become something more than what it is, and therefore does not change in any-way since it already expresses everything that it is. It has no potentiality; It is pure actuality. Such a being is called ultimate reality, the source of all potentiality; and because it is not a potential being it cannot be said to be synonymous in nature to that which is made of potentiality or change. Ultimate reality is therefore timeless by definition, and the universe is something that changes and evolves in virtue of being made up of potential or changing parts.

Therefore the universe as a whole was created by a perfect timeless being that has no physical properties (it is not a finite dimension, space, or time; it has no size width or shape; it is not a force, it is not any form of dynamic energy, it cannot be measured, for it is not a scientific object).
 
John_Russell_Jr said:
… my dearest friends ,

… it seems a lot of atheists come here and seem all too oft to really want to know if god exists , so i thought of a new way for them to test the water that can work , trying to believe in god on an intellectual basis is usually inadequate and they and oft believers have trouble with this more or less …

… john …
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Unless one can have them stay in their marriage then we can have them seat down and hear what the story is all about.

I don’t want to sound like a pessimist but, wonderful as it, this just won’t do. Let me elaborate.

With the present state of mind of people regarding marriage and the the marriage vow, the story just seems odd. Of course the intended audience of the story are the atheists, but the cynics in them will expose outright the nature of the marriage culturally in the west. And another thing, we will never have them married inside a Christian church with their current attitude towards God.

In fact they are the one who wants younger companions and rid of their old partners in the first place. They are the ones who wants out when they start falling out of love. Divorce is prevalent. ‘Through thick and thin’ or 'for better or worse” are not the prime objective in their marriages but “through thick only” and “for better only” attitudes towards the ‘contract’ prevails.

Atheist are logically intelligent unless we can come up with intelligent and logical arguments against their positions we can never have them back by using emotions and feelings in presenting God. The problem is, how can we explain to them what is incomprehensible or define what is undefinable?

Someone said, “When reasons end, Faith begins”. Let’s just pray, they ran out of reasons in rejecting the limitless nature of God. I believe Prayer works, it always does. They just don’t know what hit them when God simply reveal himself through His most Holy Spirit.

Shalom
 
trdchubi said:
Unless one can have them stay in their marriage then we can have them seat down and hear what the story is all about.

I don’t want to sound like a pessimist but, wonderful as it, this just won’t do. Let me elaborate.

With the present state of mind of people regarding marriage and the the marriage vow, the story just seems odd. Of course the intended audience of the story are the atheists, but the cynics in them will expose outright the nature of the marriage culturally in the west. And another thing, we will never have them married inside a Christian church with their current attitude towards God.

In fact they are the one who wants younger companions and rid of their old partners in the first place. They are the ones who wants out when they start falling out of love. Divorce is prevalent. ‘Through thick and thin’ or 'for better or worse” are not the prime objective in their marriages but “through thick only” and “for better only” attitudes towards the ‘contract’ prevails.

Atheist are logically intelligent unless we can come up with intelligent and logical arguments against their positions we can never have them back by using emotions and feelings in presenting God. The problem is, how can we explain to them what is incomprehensible or define what is undefinable?

Someone said, “When reasons end, Faith begins”. Let’s just pray, they ran out of reasons in rejecting the limitless nature of God. I believe Prayer works, it always does. They just don’t know what hit them when God simply reveal himself through His most Holy Spirit.

Shalom
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… my dear friend ,

… thx for your comments and i see your points , but i’m a little more optimistic than that , whilst what you say is oft true i believe people incl atheists enter marriage with good upright intentions and don’t want the negatives you point out to happen …

… also , there are many who do not go the dysfunctional path you mention , just because marriage is not appreciated fully let alone understood by some or even most is not reason to exclude it when trying to explain a mystery like this , a relationship with god if it is true is like a marriage , so the parable is quite apt i feel …

… thx for your thoughts though dear friend …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
is atheism really another religion ???

… following is a general view of this subject which shows a common brand of atheism , but is not the exclusive type of atheism , same as all religions are different but share common traits , and we are exploring whether even atheism shares the common traits of all religions , and thus looking at the question of whether religion is inherent in human nature , even atheism …

… and it is not typical of all atheists but more so an exploration of whether man is essentially a religious being , if even atheists are – then perhaps religion is not just man made but essential to mans very existence , and thus not man made but made for man , the question then would be is there a correct religion for man if all men must and can only be religious in reality ??? , …
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Definition of ATHEISM

1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
… atheism is a belief system the same as all religions …

Definition of RELIGION

1a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

… religion is also a belief system just like atheism , and it does not always include a god / s like buddhism for insatance …

Definition of FAITH

1a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one’s promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
— on faith
: without question

… atheism is a firm belief in a religion with no proof , man cannot prove anything , and atheism believes there is no god and cannot prove it , it is pure faith in a religious belief …

Definition of RELIGIOUS

1: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
2: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances
3a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : fervent, zealous

… atheists are religious , see 2 : , but further all men are religious in that they do all religiously , like creaturs of habit , including atheists …

Definition of GOD

1capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3: a person or thing of supreme value
4: a powerful ruler

… all men have god / s , even atheists , see 3: , atheists have the god of science , intellectual knowlege , they themselves can beome god , money , power or prestige become gods , there are endless examples , but every man has god / s , including atheists …

Definition of SPIRITUALITY

1: something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2: clergy
3: sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4: the quality or state of being spiritual

… atheists hold to spiritual beliefs like all religions , let us look at spiritual next …

Definition of SPIRITUAL

1: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal
2a : of or relating to sacred matters b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal
3: concerned with religious values
4: related or joined in spirit
5a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena

… atheism is spiritual , see 3 : , it is concerned with religious values , like all religions …

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Definition of PRAYER

1a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish
2: the act or practice of praying to God or a god
3: a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural
4: something prayed for
5: a slight chance <haven’t got a prayer>

… atheists practise prayer , they may oft desire with all their heart an mind and thus pray that science and pure intellectualism ( perhaps their god / s – it varies ) , will disprove theism once and for all , atheists pray to their god / s like all religions …

Definition of DOGMA

1a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

… atheists have their dogmas , and they don’t have adequate grounds for their dogmas , they are held on faith like all religions …

Definition of DOCTRINE

1archaic : teaching, instruction
2a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations e : a military principle or set of strategies

… atheism is full of doctrines in its belief system , just like all religions …

Definition of PROOF

1a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2obsolete : experience
3: something that induces certainty or establishes validity
4archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or tried; especially : unyielding hardness
5: evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal
6a plural proofs or proof : a copy (as of typeset text) made for examination or correction b : a test impression of an engraving, etching, or lithograph c : a coin that is struck from a highly polished die on a polished planchet, is not intended for circulation, and sometimes differs in metallic content from coins of identical design struck for circulation d : a test photographic print made from a negative
7: a test applied to articles or substances to determine whether they are of standard or satisfactory quality
8a : the minimum alcoholic strength of proof spirit b : strength with reference to the standard for proof spirit; specifically : alcoholic strength indicated by a number that is twice the percent by volume of alcohol present <whiskey of 90 proof is 45 percent alcohol>

… atheism wants theism to provide proof / s , but atheism cannot prove god does not exist , and cannot try as it will , both atheists and theists claim they have absolute proof / s for their faith based belief systems , but neither will accept the proof / s of the other – generally , unless conversions happen …

Definition of CONVERSION

1: the act of converting : the process of being converted
2: an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion
3a : the operation of finding a converse in logic or mathematics b : reduction of a mathematical expression by clearing of fractions
4: a successful attempt for a point or points especially after a touchdown or for a first down <a 2-point conversion>
5: something converted from one use to another

… both atheists and theists have conversion proceses and seek converts , all religions do …

Definition of CHURCH

1: a building for public and especially Christian worship
2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: as a : the whole body of Christians b : denomination c : congregation
4: a public divine worship
5: the clerical profession

… atheists are a church , the original definition meant : a gathering ( of people ) , but see 2 : officialdom of a religious body , the officialdom might be famous atheists , scientists , intellectuals , the church of atheism ??? , i think yes it is a church , just like all religions …

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Definition of SCIENCE

1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
3a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4: a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws
5capitalized : christian science

… all religions have it in common that they include science , and not just atheism , theology and philosophy are also sciences , there are many sciences though , it is not only atheists that can claim to be truly scientific …

Definition of REASON

1a : a statement offered in explanation or justification b : a rational ground or motive c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client’s action> d : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : cause <the real reason why he wanted me to stay — Graham Greene>
2a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence (2) : proper exercise of the mind (3) : sanity b : the sum of the intellectual powers
3archaic : treatment that affords satisfaction

… atheism claims only it is reasonable , but all religions claim this , some are more than others i know , but catholicism is as reasonable as you will see , but reason is not the sole property of atheism …

Definition of HOLY
1: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2: divine <for the Lord our God is holy — Psalms 99:9(Authorized Version)>
3: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity
4a : having a divine quality b : venerated as or as if sacred
5—used as an intensive <he was a holy terror when he drank — Thomas Wolfe> ; often used in combination as a mild oath

… see 4a : atheism claims to be holy , just like all religions …

Definition of TRUTH

1a archaic : fidelity, constancy b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
2a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true c : the body of true statements and propositions
3a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : true 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
4capitalized Christian Science : god

… atheism like all religions claims to have the truth , and isnsists they are right , all do this , but none offer such comprehensive proof as catholicism in my opinion …

Definition of VIRTUE

1a : conformity to a standard of right : morality b : a particular moral excellence
2plural : an order of angels — see celestial hierarchy
3: a beneficial quality or power of a thing
4: manly strength or courage : valor
5: a commendable quality or trait : merit
6: a capacity to act : potency
7: chastity especially in a woman

… atheists like all religons have virtues they strive for , see 3 : , for instance , atheists have beneficial qualities like intelligence , ability to reason , objectiveness , rationality , logicalness etc , just like all religions they have virtues …

Definition of SIN

1a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it’s a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : fault
2a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

… all religions have sin / s , atheism has many too , atheism has religious laws atheists must obey like disbelief in god , pursuit of scientific truth , being logical and rational etc , there are many of course , as said all religions have sin / s …

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