He did what you asked and provided a definition of personhood. You have no right to tell him that’s wrong because it isn’t yours. If all you’ll ever be is stubborn and combative, just admit it and leave. We’re wasting so much effort trying to have a conversation when it seems you’re only interested in demanding people to agree with you.
Not because we disagree. Neuroscience tells us that the characteristics of “personhood” are stored in the frontal lobe.
This still comes from your definition of personhood; neuroscience tells you that the characteristics you associate with personhood are stored in the frontal lobe. Neuroscience itself makes no claim on the definition of personhood.
Apparently it’s not what your definition of biological independence means. A set scientific term of ‘biological independence’ does not exist. I take it to mean that a biological organism can exist independent of any other biological organism.
That’s not much of a person if all there is are involuntary movements going on in the body.
If this is so then birth is not the point at which personhood begins inasmuch as some children are in fact born without brains, so clearly birth is not a biologically significant event in determining personhood.
Once again you shift your definition. The brain of a fetus at nine months is much more developed than that of a premature baby delivered at six. If the baby is considered a person (possessing an active frontal lobe) then so is the fetus, yet you would deny that it was, so clearly this is not your real definition.
Do you hold that position for all stages of life? In other words, if a living entity which you once deemed a real human being should (for whatever reason) lose sapience, would that entity cease to be a real human being? Also, why does sapience matter? Doesn’t it mean “wisdom”? Who decides who is wise?
I think I can agree to this (although, lol, we’ll have to define “end product”), except that your examples give me pause:
I do not see the acorn and the egg as being comparable. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the vast majority of acorns will never become an oak tree. On the other hand, all eggs will become chickens unless an outside force (could be a force of nature) prevents the hen from taking action to hatch the egg.
Again, I cannot be distracted with other conversations - even though there are probably wonderful things to learn from many of the posts. (Although we did get linked to a “dumbest discussion” thread, lol - but seriously, I would like to read the numerous well-thought-out posts, but my health and family needs make that unwise at this time).Ender:
Read my previous post to @EmmaSowl.
Consider the case of Terri Schiavo, whose brain shrunk all the way that only some vegetative functions remain. If I am not mistaken, she was even unable to breathe on her own.
Just like the overwhelming majority of the human eggs - even the fertilized ones! - get simply flushed out of the woman’s body. And the chicken eggs need the natural or artificial heat coming from nesting or incubation.
So, in your view, did she cease being a living human being?
From where do you get that definition?
Unfertilized eggs are not an issue for me in this discussion (let me know if/why they are for you). Are the overwhelming majority of fertilized eggs flushed out naturally? I ask only to know the facts. Whether or not they are, the flushing out would still be an act of nature - something every human entity can be subject to.
Exactly - meaning that, just as the acorn/chicken egg comparison has holes in it, so does the chicken egg/human egg comparison. Once a fertilized human egg survives any flushing out due to an act of nature, it absolutely will become a baby unless it is interfered with (by humans or nature). Unlike a hen, the mother harboring the egg need not do anything whatsoever to keep that egg growing. In fact, she can actively do things to harm the egg (drink alcohol, smoke - anything), and it will still continue to grow.
Sorry, Emma. Again what? Yes my suspension expired, so I am back.
Sorry I took so long to reply. Lots of work baloney. Ugh.
Good to see you back. Of course I want to continue. We shall have to check where we left off. As we know “work” is a four letter word, but it keeps paying the bills.
Exactly - meaning that, just as the acorn/chicken egg comparison has holes in it, so does the chicken egg/human egg comparison. Once a fertilized human egg survives any flushing out due to an act of nature, it absolutely will become a baby unless it is interfered with (by humans or nature). Unlike a hen, the mother harboring the egg need not do anything whatsoever to keep that egg growing. In fact, she can actively do things to harm the egg (drink alcohol, smoke - anything), and it will still continue to grow.
She still had human DNA (which is not a precise term, due to some mutations) and her brain was reduced to vegetative functions. But to reduce a human “being” to having a human DNA, is not a good idea. It would elevate a tumor to the status of a “being”.
Common knowledge. The sapience is the highest brain function, being able to reach abstractions.
No, not for me. However many people equate a human being (or even person!) with the moment of fertilization, so for them losing a fertilized egg would be as significant as the miscarriage of a 3 month old fetus - if they would be rational about it.
No analogy is ever perfect. OK, here is another one.
Does that mean “Yes, Terri Schiavo ceased to be a human being”?
Must a living human entity have the highest brain function in order to be a human being? Can babies reach abstractions?
Baby is not at all final. It is followed by toddler, child, pre-teen, teen, young adult, adult, middle-aged, senior, elderly (to name the obvious). There are high degrees of differences of sapience among these various stages of the human being. Plus, within all these stages, there are individuals whose sapience is either stifled from the get-go or lost through some sort of accident or mental deterioration.
But it still needs caring. Unlike a healthy adult, a healthy baby must be cared for. So again, is it a human being?
