Attending an Anglican bible study

[Non_Serviam]

Do you know why you should always take two Baptists fishing with you?

Because if you take just one, he’ll drink all your beer!!

Two men are standing on the front lawn of a church. One man is leaning on the church’s sign and the other is looking at it from the front.

The sign reads :

OAK ROAD Bible Believing, Hand Clapping, Foot Stomping, Hemlines-Below-the-Knee, Tie Wearing, Blood Washed, Coffee-And-Donuts-During-Sunday-School Eating, Council of Nicaea Appreciating, Non-Denominational CHURCH

The man leaning on the sign says, “When you don’t believe in written creeds, you have to squeeze a lot of doctrine into your name.”

 

[Non_Serviam]

Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Son of God.
Protestants don’t recognize the pope as the Ruler of the Church.
Baptists don’t recognize each other in a liquor store.

 

[ajcstr]

Historically, that is not an accurate picture of what Henry did, or tried to do. But this, as we are agreed, is not a point that needs discussion here.

GKC

Hey, don’t pull that - I watch “The Tudors” - that has to be true, doesn’t it ?

 

[GKC]

Hey, don’t pull that - I watch “The Tudors” - that has to be true, doesn’t it ?

Only the salacious parts.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Son of God.
Protestants don’t recognize the pope as the Ruler of the Church.
Baptists don’t recognize each other in a liquor store.

Precisely.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Two men are standing on the front lawn of a church. One man is leaning on the church’s sign and the other is looking at it from the front.

The sign reads :

OAK ROAD Bible Believing, Hand Clapping, Foot Stomping, Hemlines-Below-the-Knee, Tie Wearing, Blood Washed, Coffee-And-Donuts-During-Sunday-School Eating, Council of Nicaea Appreciating, Non-Denominational CHURCH

The man leaning on the sign says, “When you don’t believe in written creeds, you have to squeeze a lot of doctrine into your name.”

I know I had left out some of the smaller subdivisions.

GKC

 

[Non_Serviam]

I know I had left out some of the smaller subdivisions.

GKC

I have been to a few churches of this ilk, and they do like to put their “distinctives” front and center. As a bonus point, if the word “fire” appears somewhere in the name, you can usually be assured of some good music (assuming lively music with Hammond B-3 accompaniment fits within your concept of good)

 

[ajcstr]

If you have already done Biblical studies in a Catholic context and are secure in your Faith I suppose this might be OK. You could possibly discuss and dialog if that is permitted, exchanging views, and everyone learns something. But it seems from the very first they are shutting down your perspective and stage managing the discussion, it is (after all) their nickel.

If it is your first Bible study experience then I think that it is a mistake to be there.

If you are really forceful and defend your perspective despite the ‘instruction’ you receive from the study leader, you will not have to quit, they quite possibly will throw you out of class (unless you make a good foil for their arguments).

I really just keep my mouth shut and ask questions after. The only questions I will ask within the group is if he mentions a greek word or a term I don’t understand, but I don’t step on toes. I really just want to understand what seperates us. One thing I find as a big red flag is he uses the NT Wright translation of Romans, so I have asked why he translated a word differently here or there, but again - no big deal.

This is not my first bible study and to be honest it really to me is a living testament to the benefit of an authoritative Church because some of these people are all over the place. Also, the guy just has an air about him almost as if he (or NT Wright) is ceartainly correct and everyone else is misinterpreting scripture if they disagree. I’m telling you, its powerful to see.

 

[ajcstr]

This is not my first bible study and to be honest it really to me is a living testament to the benefit of an authoritative Church because some of these people are all over the place.

Let me rephrase before I get bashed - I see firsthand the consequence of not having an authoritative Church to interpret Scripture. This is just an observation - hopefully we won’t get 95 posts on this.

 

[hotdjdave]

Good for you to going to this Bible study. Shame on those who say you shouldn’t. We need to get knowledge for multiple sources and/or as many sources as possible. As you have discovered, there isn’t only one horse in town…no ONE group has a monopoly on the truth of God’s word.

As for the subject of works, I don’t get it…throughout the entire Book of Romans (Paul’s writings to the Church in Rome) and Paul’s Letter to Titus (a Christian in Rome), he spells it out: We are not saved by our works; we all have sinned and no work we could do would be sufficient; we are saved by our faith in the Lord and by his grace alone. One of the subject matter of Paul’s letter to Rome was that these Christians at the Church in Rome were under the assumption that their good works could save them and Paul attempts to set them straight. Three hundred years later at the forming of the Church in Rome as the Universal Church and the argument still remained.

Romans 3:23; 3:10-18; 6:23; 5:8; 10:9; 10:13; 8:1; 8:38-39.

James wrote that we show our faith by our works, not that our works saves us.

*“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” * Titus 3:5

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

I do not have anything to do with this organization nor its publications, but here is a good quick study on works: answers.libertybaptistchurch.org.au/answers/91.

*“Faith is the Godward condition of salvation. Works is the manward evidence of salvation.” * From the above publication.

“Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15

Be like the Bereans: “Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.” Acts 17:10-12

 

[Contarini]

As for the subject of works, I don’t get it

Indeed, because you read the NT through Baptist lenses and assume these are the only ones.

throughout the entire Book of Romans (Paul’s writings to the Church in Rome) and Paul’s Letter to Titus (a Christian in Rome),

The letter to Titus seems to assume that the recipient is in Crete.

he spells it out: We are not saved by our works; we all have sinned and no work we could do would be sufficient; we are saved by our faith in the Lord and by his grace alone.

This is certainly the traditional Protestant interpretation. You are to be commended for your humble submission to the doctrines of your church.

One of the subject matter of Paul’s letter to Rome was that these Christians at the Church in Rome were under the assumption that their good works could save them and Paul attempts to set them straight.

Exegetical evidence for this?

Three hundred years later at the forming of the Church in Rome as the Universal Church

An event that figures largely in Baptist mythology but which is unknown to historians.

You engage in the typical fundamentalist ploy of throwing a lot of Scripture references at us, without bothering to do the work yourself of showing how they support your view on those points where others may differ from you.

Sorry, but that won’t fly. None of the passages you cite suggest that the Roman Christians to whom Paul was writing “were under the assumption that good works could save them.” N one questions that faith saves us, but none of the passages you cite seem to me to say that faith saves in the absence of obedience. (You may not in fact believe that it does, but if you do, I don’t think you have Paul on your side.)

Here are three “New Perspective” points to ponder:

1. What evidence do you have that when Paul speaks of “not being justified by works” he is speaking of good works in general and not of the commandments of the Torah in particular?
2. What evidence to you have that being “justified” or being “saved” refers to whether or not a person “goes to heaven” after they die?
3. What evidence do you have that the phrase “pistis Christou” found in Romans 3:22 and elsewhere refers to our faith in Christ rather than to Christ’s own faithfulness? (Certainly other passages, such as Romans 10:9, *do *refer to our faith in Christ. But if the key “pistis Christou” passages are the “subjective” rather than “objective” genitive, then the shape of Paul’s argument looks a bit different.)

James wrote that we show our faith by our works, not that our works saves us.

Actually he said both. At least, he said that works make faith perfect and that people are “justified” by works. One clever Protestant interpretation is to say that this “justification” is before humans and not before God, but this interpretation is mandated by the Protestant interpretation of Paul. If that interpretation is flawed, as Wright and many other contemporary scholars think, then clearly there is no need for such an ingenious interpretation of James, is there?

*“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” * Titus 3:5

Indeed. Just what reason can you give not to paraphrase this as “God rescued us from the powers of evil and made us His people not on the basis of our keeping the commandments of Torah, but according to his mercy, offered us in holy Baptism and the renewal by the Spirit that is given in that Sacrament?”

Edwin

 

[hotdjdave]

I agree. It is the works of the law that is referred to as not saving us, but the fact is we cannot do any of our own good works to earn our salvation – this is evident in the Bible – none of them would ever be good enough; Jesus did the work for us. However, there are some works, if you want to call them “works,” that must be accomplished for salvation:

• Belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (obvious);
• Belief in the Word of God, the Bible (obvious)
• Belief in Jesus and that he is one with God, and in fact “God manifest in the flesh”;
• Belief that Jesus died for our sins by shedding his blood on the cross, and without this shedding, there is no remission of sins;
• Belief that Jesus raised from dead on the third day, and later raised into Heaven to sit on the Throne of God as Priest and King, being God himself;
• We must repent;
• We must be baptized in Jesus name for the remission (forgiveness) of our sins;
• We must receive the Holy Ghost.
• And some say, we must live a holy life, which is the expectation of all Christians; but if we sin, we have an advocate who will forgive us if we repent and ask: that is Jesus. For “confession is made with the mouth” and “for there is one God, and one mediator [intercessor] between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

These are the works of salvation. Some are prerequisites and some are actual words and deeds (which may be interpreted as “works”).

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1, 14) Jesus is God in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (I Timothy 3:16) - Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

*…unless you repent you will all likewise perish. *(Luke 13:3 and 5).

*He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not will be damned. *(Mark 16:16)

*Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” *(Acts 2:38-39) We must repent, be baptized in Jesus name for the removal of sins, and receive the Holy Spirit. This is for those at the time, their descendants, and for us now, as many as the Lord will call…he is still calling!

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:11)

Acts 8:26-40 (perquisite of baptism) – Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” (vs 37)

*And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. *(Acts 22:16)

*For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. **There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism **(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. *(I Peter 3:18-22)

By the way, I am not a Baptist, but I do believe it is baptism that washes away our sins and, as the scripture says, “saves us.” Baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ fro the remission of sins.” And yes, baptism is a work, being both a word and a deed: “And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.” (Colossians 3:17)

Thank you for your insight. I always love to learn and be like the Bereans.

 

[hotdjdave]

However, there are some works, if you want to call them “works,” that must be accomplished for salvation:

• Belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (obvious);
• Belief in the Word of God, the Bible (obvious)
• Belief in Jesus and that he is one with God, and in fact “God manifest in the flesh”;
• Belief that Jesus died for our sins by shedding his blood on the cross, and without this shedding, there is no remission of sins;
• Belief that Jesus raised from dead on the third day, and later raised into Heaven to sit on the Throne of God as Priest and King, being God himself;
• We must repent;
• We must be baptized in Jesus name for the remission (forgiveness) of our sins;
• We must receive the Holy Ghost.
• And some say, we must live a holy life, which is the expectation of all Christians; but if we sin, we have an advocate who will forgive us if we repent and ask: that is Jesus. For “confession is made with the mouth” and “for there is one God, and one mediator [intercessor] between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

These are the works of salvation. Some are prerequisites and some are actual words and deeds (which may be interpreted as “works”).

I forgot 'confession." Confession is part of the above list. We must confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus. We must also confess our sins to God as part of the repentance process.

That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

 

[ajcstr]

Good for you to going to this Bible study. Shame on those who say you shouldn’t. We need to get knowledge for multiple sources and/or as many sources as possible. As you have discovered, there isn’t only one horse in town…no ONE group has a monopoly on the truth of God’s word.

As for the subject of works, I don’t get it

Here is one insight I personally got out of this class - now again - don’t bash me this is just something I came up with myself as he was talking about covenant relationships. For ME at least, If instead of the words faith and works, I think trust and obedience, it all becomes clearer for me. I don’t think this goes against what Paul is teaching - hopefully this gets to the spirit of it. To me the word obedience is less meritorious sounding than “works”. As Catholics (even though we get knocked for this) we don’t think that our good works “earn” us anything because they are really fueled by grace. But think of our works as acts of obedience and it gets clearer. Go where he wants you, do what he tells you. Does this make any sense?

 

[mark_a]

Good for you to going to this Bible study. Shame on those who say you shouldn’t. We need to get knowledge for multiple sources and/or as many sources as possible. As you have discovered, there isn’t only one horse in town…no ONE group has a monopoly on the truth of God’s word.

As for the subject of works, I don’t get it…throughout the entire Book of Romans (Paul’s writings to the Church in Rome) and Paul’s Letter to Titus (a Christian in Rome), he spells it out: We are not saved by our works; we all have sinned and no work we could do would be sufficient; we are saved by our faith in the Lord and by his grace alone. One of the subject matter of Paul’s letter to Rome was that these Christians at the Church in Rome were under the assumption that their good works could save them and Paul attempts to set them straight. Three hundred years later at the forming of the Church in Rome as the Universal Church and the argument still remained.

Romans 3:23; 3:10-18; 6:23; 5:8; 10:9; 10:13; 8:1; 8:38-39.

James wrote that we show our faith by our works, not that our works saves us.

*“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” *Titus 3:5

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

I do not have anything to do with this organization nor its publications, but here is a good quick study on works: answers.libertybaptistchurch.org.au/answers/91.

*“Faith is the Godward condition of salvation. Works is the manward evidence of salvation.” *From the above publication.

“Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15

Be like the Bereans: "Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men." Acts 17:10-12

Here’s what 2Peter Chapter 3 has to say about that:

15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, 16 speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. 18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)

 

[mark_a]

As you have discovered, there isn’t only one horse in town…no ONE group has a monopoly on the truth of God’s word.

Here’s something you can agree about with Pope Benedict.

 

[hotdjdave]

Here is one insight I personally got out of this class - now again - don’t bash me this is just something I came up with myself as he was talking about covenant relationships. For ME at least, If instead of the words faith and works, I think trust and obedience, it all becomes clearer for me. I don’t think this goes against what Paul is teaching - hopefully this gets to the spirit of it. To me the word obedience is less meritorious sounding than “works”. As Catholics (even though we get knocked for this) we don’t think that our good works “earn” us anything because they are really fueled by grace. But think of our works as acts of obedience and it gets clearer. Go where he wants you, do what he tells you. Does this make any sense?

That makes sense.

As long as we know that “works” don’t save us…there is not any work of righteousness we could do good enough to earn God’s saving grace…He offers it as a free gift. Jesus Christ already performed the “work” on the Cross and in His resurrection to earn our salvation…it is finished.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Only the salacious parts.

GKC

I was reading about ol’ Hank just the other day. July 30 is the day of commemoration for Robert Barnes, the English Lutheran who was martyred for his faith. I had always assumed that he was killed by Roman Catholic inquisitors, but he wasn’t. He was burned at the stake by Henry VIII, years after the king had broken from Rome! (When he burned Barnes for not believing in transubstantiation and for believing that Communion should be given to the laity in both kinds, he also executed three Catholics for not believing that Henry was the rightful head of the English church.) Better known is William Tyndale who was strangled and burned for translating the Bible into English, also by Henry VIII.

What an odd fellow.

 

[GKC]

I was reading about ol’ Hank just the other day. July 30 is the day of commemoration for Robert Barnes, the English Lutheran who was martyred for his faith. I had always assumed that he was killed by Roman Catholic inquisitors, but he wasn’t. He was burned at the stake by Henry VIII, years after the king had broken from Rome! (When he burned Barnes for not believing in transubstantiation and for believing that Communion should be given to the laity in both kinds, he also executed three Catholics for not believing that Henry was the rightful head of the English church.) Better known is William Tyndale who was strangled and burned for translating the Bible into English, also by Henry VIII.

What an odd fellow.

I call him a fascinating train wreck. The execution of Barnes and the two others, Jerome and Garrett, the former an Anglican cleric, burned with him in 1540, is a murky subject. The best of Henry’s biographers, J. J. Scarisbrick (whose bio of Hank, HENRY VIII, I recommend repeatedly) is puzzled by it, and so were many of Henry’s contemporaries. In essence, Scarisbrick holds it was all part of the plot against Cromwell, who had been executed two days previously. As was the execution of Powell, Fetherston and Abel you also mention. It was all done under cover of Attainder, not in open trial. Scarisbrick suspects the hand of Gardiner in it all.

Lambert, OTOH, was certainly condemned by Henry, two years before, and that definitely on the question of the Real Presence.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yep, ole Henry was a piece of work. And Tyndale, shame on him for translating a Bible into a language people could actually read. Shame!