Attending Protestant "ordination" is sinful?

[Kathryn_Ann]

Frankly, you should not be concerned about embarrassing your family. Your faith comes first and you definitely should NOT be attending this totally invalid Protestant “ordination”.

I completely agree with thistle. I would never attend a so called protestant “ordination.” If pressed to, (for a close friend or relative) I would do as advised by some, and write a kind letter which would not recognize the “ordination,” but would wish them a happy day.

I have a similar situation with a lady acquaintance of mine who is considered an “elder,” in her protestant church, and who is rabidly anti-Catholic and not shy about verbalizing about this. She knew enough not to invite me to her special “ceremony.”

Our Catholic faith does indeed come first, and this situation is not about being embarrassed but about taking a stand. To go to such an invalid “ordination,” would mean that you recognize it as valid, which you cannot. It is entirely another thing to wish a person well. Were I in this situation, I would “check my calender” if invited, decline swiftly, and if really pressed into explaining why, I would not to afraid to say “I am Catholic, and cannot attend.” If pressed further, I would explain about my belief in valid orders. Life is not always pleasant and easy. We must learn to stand up for that in which we believe.

 

[triumphguy]

Would you have come to my ordination? It was a small service next to my computer. Most touching. I probably should demand some sort of title how about Just calling me Rev. From now on.

Seriously and just so you know. I took care of all of this with a confessor.

It would have been nice to have a Catholic there though, to hit me upside the head.

I would have hit you upside the head.

 

[LilyM]

The two are not alike:

I could attend as a witness to the sacrifice the person getting “ordained” is offering of their lives even though in a protestant Church.

I cannot take communion because that IS against Church teaching.

And you could equally attend the wedding as a ‘witness’ to the ‘sacrifice’ of two people who love each other and committing their lives to each other … or more than two if they happen to believe in polygamy

Uh, except no, lots of us wouldn’t even think of it. No specific church law that I know of against attending a same sex wedding, mind. But lots of Catholic teachers and thinkers agree that it is unwise.

Why is that the gut instinct of so many is that mere attendance at the wedding is likely enough to cause scandal that we would avoid it, but not at the usually even more public occasion that is an ordination? Who knows.

 

[triumphguy]

Marriage speaks to a natural law, and so speaks to the gut.

“Ordination” is different.

 

[LilyM]

Marriage speaks to a natural law, and so speaks to the gut.

“Ordination” is different.

Ordination speaks to supernatural law, and supernatural grace, which are equally important to God as natural law. And so should be equally important to all who would follow Him.

We all have to answer to Him for the scandalous misrepresentations of truth we may be responsible for. And I am far more scared of that than of being lacking in my warm-n-fuzziness towards others.

And even that need not be an issue. Certainly one can refuse to attend in a courteous and non-offensive way, just as I have refused when offered communion in a courteous and non-offensive way.

 

[triumphguy]

But maybe the ordination of a sincere protestant is NOT scandalous to God?

BTW is this a war of attrition Keep arguing 'til one gives up?

Checked your profile - you’re a lawyer. I hope you’re not billing me for this!

I’ve got a Law degree to - I think it changes you ontologically - you hate to lose an argument!

Maybe one doesn’t refuse because one WANTS to go AND because there is no prescription against it, AND because after informing one’s conscience one makes the adult decision to attend!

 

[LilyM]

But maybe the ordination of a sincere protestant is NOT scandalous to God?

BTW is this a war of attrition Keep arguing 'til one gives up?

Checked your profile - you’re a lawyer. I hope you’re not billing me for this!

I’ve got a Law degree to - I think it changes you ontologically - you hate to lose an argument!

Maybe one doesn’t refuse because one WANTS to go AND because there is no prescription against it, AND because after informing one’s conscience one makes the adult decision to attend!

Last response, I promise I think it was the argumentative tendencies that made me think law was a good fit as a career, rather than the training changing me too much. Sad, I know.

So … maybe you don’t refuse.

And maybe I, after informing my conscience, make instead the equally valid and adult decision, out of respect for the sacrament of Holy Orders, to refrain from a ceremony that appropriates the same name, ‘ordination’, but is not at all the same thing.

And maybe we both live happily ever after and God smiles upon both of us for different reasons.

 

[triumphguy]

Amen, my learned friend!

 

[Moore11]

Marriage speaks to a natural law, and so speaks to the gut.

“Ordination” is different.

But if “natural law” is ordained by God. And the priesthood is as well then they are similar. Actually I think the case could be made for attending a non Christian “ordination” rather than a Christian one. If one looks at the historical context of the protestants coupled with Jesus only granting one priesthood then there is a direct parallel to same sex weddings.

It is probably more of perversion to attempt this in the realm of Christianity than say, Judaism, because we are talking about the Church the triune God set up and then some broke from. Think about it. They are protesting Holy Mother Church, headed by The Vicar of Christ, and set up by God Almighty himself. And they are ordaining priests in a distorted church.

I’d rather go to a protestant baptism than an ordination.

But you are right, we are arguing out of a similar context an doing it for the love of arguing.
A good and holy Catholic could attend. But I never would. And I think you and I agree my reasoning is sound.

 

[triumphguy]

True dat!

 

[Moore11]

True dat!

Triumphguy, You are welcome at my fire anytime.

 

[triumphguy]

I’ll bring meat

 

[dskysmine]

Good heavens, of course I’m not the sort of person whose only reason for attending would be to make a point of refusing. You are well and truly reading too much into
my comments if you see anything that I have said that could possibly indicate such an attitude on my part. I was merely indicating that attendance at a communion service would not be wrongly construed as full agreement if I don’t receive, whereas mere attendance at an ordination, like mere attendance at a wedding, easily can and often will be construed as full approval or agreement.

Why is that so? Why does my presence there indicate full approval?
If a mother is present when her child is put to death for horrible crimes does it mean she approves of him being killed?
If I vote for Republicans does it mean I believe that Capitalism is good?
If I use the toilet at a gun range does it mean I approve of people bearing arms?
We are children of a perfect God in a World that was corrupted by sin. Our presence in the front of sin does not mean our approval of it…

There is no parallel. I do not see them as sinners for starters.

By the above logic why should you not receive their communion as well then? After all, both they and you know that it’s not the same thing as Catholic Communion, right? And sure, some people might misinterpret it if you do, but then they’d be the same type who criticized Christ for eating with sinners, wouldn’t they?

Or better still, let’s use the example of a same-sex wedding happening outside the Church. Nobody presumes that it is exactly the same thing as a Catholic wedding, and a Catholic need do nothing but attend. At the same time many on this thread who would be fine with attending an ordination would be anything but fine with gracing a same-sex wedding with their presence. Some have even said as much.

Of course there is a parallel… Jesus being in the house of sinners was in the eyes of the Jews an approval of the sins they commited, not because Jesus loved the sins but because Jesus loved the sinners!
I see them as sinners, as I see myself being a sinner, but I cannot uphold them to something they do not know or understand. Every day I pray I thank God that I am Catholic because a lot of other people did not have the same luck as I did to being born in a Catholic family. How can I blame someone for being born in “the wrong faith”?
I can only testify to the truth of the Church if I am present in their lives. The Holy Spirit has to move something in them for them to understand the Truth and if I am not there to show them that I follow the True Church, how will they learn?
About the communion parallel you cannot say it is the same thing because the Church has pronounced definitive answers for it, that we are not to take Communion in their services. I don’t think this is because of the Church not having had time to create something for Ordinations. The Church has said that a Catholic cannot be ordained in another church, why didn’t She say something about our presence in someone else’s ordination? Do you really think that The Church couldn’t have done it? It is because our presence does not mean we accept their ordination as similar to ours, only for those “Jews”(pun intended).

With that kind of reasoning you make for the same-sex marriage you can extrapolate for any kind of sin…or mistake… And the Truth is that you cannot judge someone with laws they do not understand. Which is why you can judge someone with natural laws for Natural crimes (like the same-sex marriages) but you cannot judge someone with supernatural laws for Supernatural Crimes they did not know of (imagine a Good Hindu being saved for example).
God is greater than the Sacraments He created. We are to do as much as possible to testify to His Truth. If the person you are missing the ordination would not feel offended or hurt by your absence then by all means… don’t go. My fiancee will be ordained in a Baptist Church to minister for young people (the calling she felt for was to nurture her community) and I will be present, not because I believe that she will become a priest but because their “ordination” rite is simply an acknowledgement from the Community that her studies, experience and will to help the community are accepted by the Community and she is allowed to minister to them.
By the way, she knows I do not believe her ordination will change anything in her (no sacrament). But she also knows that I support her in helping her community as she has learned, and if God will one day bring her into The Church, I will be more than happy, and if He does not so want, then I will accept His Will and love her the same.
God Bless.
Daniel

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Ordination speaks to supernatural law, and supernatural grace, which are equally important to God as natural law. And so should be equally important to all who would follow Him.

We all have to answer to Him for the scandalous misrepresentations of truth we may be responsible for. And I am far more scared of that than of being lacking in my warm-n-fuzziness towards others.

And even that need not be an issue. Certainly one can refuse to attend in a courteous and non-offensive way, just as I have refused when offered communion in a courteous and non-offensive way.

Perfectly said, LilyM! Your phrase “scandalous misrepresentation” speaks to this issue best of all, because at a so-called protestant “ordination” we are not speaking of innocent children who have not been raised in the Catholic faith and who have no idea of the differences between The Faith and protestantism. We are talking about an adult, a fully grown person who will now be perpetrating the very scandalous misrepresentations against the very Faith we hold dear. There is a reason people decide to be “Protestant,” and there is a reason, and many reasons to be strong in our Catholic Faith.
Kathryn Ann

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Why is that so? Why does my presence there indicate full approval?

Of course there is a parallel… Jesus being in the house of sinners was in the eyes of the Jews an approval of the sins they commited, not because Jesus loved the sins but because Jesus loved the sinners!
I see them as sinners, as I see myself being a sinner, but I cannot uphold them to something they do not know or understand. Every day I pray I thank God that I am Catholic because a lot of other people did not have the same luck as I did to being born in a Catholic family. How can I blame someone for being born in “the wrong faith”?

With that kind of reasoning you make for the same-sex marriage you can extrapolate for any kind of sin…or mistake… And the Truth is that you cannot judge someone with laws they do not understand. Which is why you can judge someone with natural laws for Natural crimes (like the same-sex marriages) but you cannot judge someone with supernatural laws for Supernatural Crimes they did not know of (imagine a Good Hindu being saved for example).
God is greater than the Sacraments He created. We are to do as much as possible to testify to His Truth. If the person you are missing the ordination would not feel offended or hurt by your absence then by all means… don’t go. My fiancee will be ordained in a Baptist Church to minister for young people (the calling she felt for was to nurture her community) and I will be present, not because I believe that she will become a priest but because their “ordination” rite is simply an acknowledgement from the Community that her studies, experience and will to help the community are accepted by the Community and she is allowed to minister to them.
By the way, she knows I do not believe her ordination will change anything in her (no sacrament). But she also knows that I support her in helping her community as she has learned, and if God will one day bring her into The Church, I will be more than happy, and if He does not so want, then I will accept His Will and love her the same.
God Bless.
Daniel

Sorry dear Daniel, but I must strongly dis-agree. LilyM is right. When speaking of adults (and certainly protestants choosing to be “ordained” as ministers ) we are not speaking about an innocent child going along with what his or her parents choose for them, or a person not acquainted with the faith differences. We are speaking of a fully informed adult choosing to perpetrate protestantism. The word, the life, the choice to perpetrate this life and lead others further way from the True Faith is a serious issue. It matters not what their motive is at this point. They are now choosing to lead countless other souls in a direction opposite to the Catholic Faith. Entire lives will be affected, decades of leading others down that road away from the Catholic Church.

LilyM wrote quite succinctly earlier, using the phrase “scandalous misrepresentation.” Someone “ordained” as a protestant minister is choosing an entire life of literally standing outside of the Catholic Faith. They know full well at that moment what they are doing. They may, at some later time, come to the truth, but that moment of “ordination” is not to be in any way attended to by a Catholic…

We have examples of course, of brilliant men and women who discovered the truth of our Catholic Faith. All through history, people are welcomed to inquire, and to make that grave and serious choice according to their level of understanding. We can love all people. We cannot love actions that misrepresent the truth of our Catholic Faith.

To attend an “ordination” of a protestant minister has worlds of meaning. Further, if pressed for a reason, we should be ever willing to state exactly why we are declining to attend such a ceremony, and use the moment to explain, in love, our belief, our gratitude and our joy in the true, valid Holy Orders of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

All this can be done in great love. Christ died for the Church. This same love calls us to speak that truth in love. “Perfect love casts out all fear,” means that we can speak the truth, not run from it.

LilyM speaks of our not choosing “warm and fuzzy,” (and I might add shallow ) kinds of relationships. We must go for the real love and real truth of Christ’s Church in order to help people in different levels of understanding.

By staying away from this protestant “ordination” a Catholic would have an opportunity to speak to to these truths as an adult. The resulting conversation could be a chance to plant the seed of truth in the other. Let them see that our our joy, not our judgement, is the reason we believe as we do.

The brilliant Dr. Scott Hahn, former presbyterian minister turned Catholic convert, is one of the most perfect examples of someone whose vast knowledge of scripture led him to the truth: That everything he had previously learned all pointed to the Truth of the Catholic Church.

It takes courage to admit that our understanding leads us in a new direction. We can all have the courage to stand up for what we believe in. Often, that means explaining why our presence cannot be counted on for things so vigorously opposed to our Faith.

A protestant minister is publicly choosing to remain outside the Faith and to perpetuate that as a shepherd, in the lives of hundreds or thousands of people through entire lifetimes. What joy when they come to a fuller knowledge and renounce their continuing dis-union and convert. “We are bought with a price.” as the scripture says, and so, we are called to stand up for the Faith, in honor of Christ who calls us to speak that truth in His great love.

Peace to you:heaven:
Kathryn Ann

 

[triumphguy]

If I’m invited to an ordination at Westboro Baptist I’ll rudely tell them to jump in a lake.
If I’m invited to an “ordination” at anti-Catholic Evangelical Church I’ll decline but not so rudely.
If I’m invited to an “ordination” at mainline protestant Church I’ll say “yes, of course. BTW you do know I’m Catholic so cannot participate in any communion service.”
Ditto if I’m invited to an Anglican ordination.

Scandalous misrepresentation: sounds impressive!

However, there’s only misrepresentation if you are a. representing the Church officially, and b. representing the Church wrongly.

Does a lay person represent the official position of the Church? If I go to Walmart am I representing the Church’s position on shopping at Walmart? If a Bishop goes to Walmart in full regalia then he may be. And the media will be there!

Is it the official position of the Church that we not attend an ordination?

For there to be “scandal” there need s to be a sizeable group of people shocked by your actions. Like a Bishop in full regalia going to a pub… except it might be “Theology on Tap”

As to people choosing to be Protestant (and that being a sin) - that is not Catholic teaching at all!

I didn’t choose to be English - I was born there. I did choose to be Canadian after my family brought me here.

People don’t choose to be born into the Protestant church. They are brought up and acculturated into their faith, just as we are.

So a protestant choosing to be ordained into ministry is not sinning! They are pleasing God!

Once they go through an inner conversion like a John Henry Newman then and only then may they be sinning by remaining outside the Church.

 

[GraceDK]

If I’m invited to an ordination at Westboro Baptist I’ll rudely tell them to jump in a lake.
If I’m invited to an “ordination” at anti-Catholic Evangelical Church I’ll decline but not so rudely.
If I’m invited to an “ordination” at mainline protestant Church I’ll say “yes, of course. BTW you do know I’m Catholic so cannot participate in any communion service.”
Ditto if I’m invited to an Anglican ordination.

Scandalous misrepresentation: sounds impressive!

However, there’s only misrepresentation if you are a. representing the Church officially, and b. representing the Church wrongly.

Does a lay person represent the official position of the Church? If I go to Walmart am I representing the Church’s position on shopping at Walmart? If a Bishop goes to Walmart in full regalia then he may be. And the media will be there!

Is it the official position of the Church that we not attend an ordination?

For there to be “scandal” there need s to be a sizeable group of people shocked by your actions. Like a Bishop in full regalia going to a pub… except it might be “Theology on Tap”

As to people choosing to be Protestant (and that being a sin) - that is not Catholic teaching at all!

I didn’t choose to be English - I was born there. I did choose to be Canadian after my family brought me here.

People don’t choose to be born into the Protestant church. They are brought up and acculturated into their faith, just as we are.

So a protestant choosing to be ordained into ministry is not sinning! They are pleasing God!

Once they go through an inner conversion like a John Henry Newman then and only then may they be sinning by remaining outside the Church.

Indeed!
And kudos to your patience… I think the people who don’t get the point now, don’t want to get the point.

 

[triumphguy]

Yes… must.stop.reading.this.thread!

 

[dskysmine]

Sorry dear Daniel, but I must strongly dis-agree. LilyM is right. When speaking of adults (and certainly protestants choosing to be “ordained” as ministers ) we are not speaking about an innocent child going along with what his or her parents choose for them, or a person not acquainted with the faith differences. We are speaking of a fully informed adult choosing to perpetrate protestantism. The word, the life, the choice to perpetrate this life and lead others further way from the True Faith is a serious issue. It matters not what their motive is at this point. They are now choosing to lead countless other souls in a direction opposite to the Catholic Faith. (…)

Love it how you used the verb…
When exactly did he/she made the decision to “perpetrate” protestantism?
How does one “perpetrate” protestantism?
Kathryn Ann;9336319:

LilyM wrote quite succinctly earlier, using the phrase “scandalous misrepresentation.” Someone “ordained” as a protestant minister is choosing an entire life of literally standing outside of the Catholic Faith. They know full well at that moment what they are doing. They may, at some later time, come to the truth, but that moment of “ordination” is not to be in any way attended to by a Catholic…

What are you talking about?
Did you read any of the posts in previous pages?
How is it that someone being a protestant minister is making any kind of different choice of any of the other non-minister “perpetrators” of protestantism?
What is it that they “know full well what they are doing” that others not being “ordained” don’t know?

We have examples of course, of brilliant men and women who discovered the truth of our Catholic Faith. All through history, people are welcomed to inquire, and to make that grave and serious choice according to their level of understanding.

Didn’t you say earlier they “knew full well”? Now there are levels of understanding?

We can love all people. We cannot love actions that misrepresent the truth of our Catholic Faith.

Where is the “misrepresentation”?

To attend an “ordination” of a protestant minister has worlds of meaning. Further, if pressed for a reason, we should be ever willing to state exactly why we are declining to attend such a ceremony, and use the moment to explain, in love, our belief, our gratitude and our joy in the true, valid Holy Orders of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I’m surprised you are not shouting from the rooftops or on TV to the whole world those things. Why do you even wait for those moments? I thought you are supposed to be a full time Catholic… or do you only get payed when there are protestant “ordinations”?

All this can be done in great love. Christ died for the Church. This same love calls us to speak that truth in love. “Perfect love casts out all fear,” means that we can speak the truth, not run from it.

Again… I ask… why are you not shouting from the rooftops or on TV the same things? Why are you running from it?

LilyM speaks of our not choosing “warm and fuzzy,” (and I might add shallow ) kinds of relationships. We must go for the real love and real truth of Christ’s Church in order to help people in different levels of understanding.

Still with the confusing arguments that don’t really explain your position… they are fully aware or have different levels of understanding?

By staying away from this protestant “ordination” a Catholic would have an opportunity to speak to to these truths as an adult. The resulting conversation could be a chance to plant the seed of truth in the other. Let them see that our our joy, not our judgement, is the reason we believe as we do.

I thought you wanted to speak these truths to them?
Why would you speak to the truths? Do they answer you back?
I thought God was the source of your Faith… not “joy” (Warm and fuzzy feelings creeping in huh? Those darned Protestants must be getting to you)

The brilliant Dr. Scott Hahn, former presbyterian minister turned Catholic convert, is one of the most perfect examples of someone whose vast knowledge of scripture led him to the truth: That everything he had previously learned all pointed to the Truth of the Catholic Church.

And did you read the book where he wrote he realized he was wrong because someone skipped his ordination?

It takes courage to admit that our understanding leads us in a new direction. We can all have the courage to stand up for what we believe in. Often, that means explaining why our presence cannot be counted on for things so vigorously opposed to our Faith.

I don’t believe that the “ordination” of a Protestant minister opposes MY Faith.
And you still have to go a long way to explain how it opposes YOUR Faith. I keep hearing how it’s “warm and fuzzy” but I don’t see any argument…

A protestant minister is publicly choosing to remain outside the Faith and to perpetuate that as a shepherd, in the lives of hundreds or thousands of people through entire lifetimes. (…)

“A protestant minister is publicly choosing to remain outside the Faith”
As opposed to the non-minister protestants? In what way?
Maybe then all those who really consider themselves Protestants should want to be ordained… they seem not to be protesting publicly too much according to you.

Peace to you:heaven:
Kathryn Ann

I am in Peace…
I’m having fun =)
God Bless!
Daniel

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Love it how you used the verb…
When exactly did he/she made the decision to “perpetrate” protestantism?
How does one “perpetrate” protestantism?

At their “ordination” ceremony, obviously. What do you think they’re announcing? Their fidelity to Rome?

What are you talking about?
What are you talking about?

Did you read any of the posts in previous pages?
Did you?

How is it that someone being a protestant minister is making any kind of different choice of any of the other non-minister “perpetrators” of protestants?

We’re speaking of the protestant invalid “ordination” vs. the valid Catholic Holy Orders, not about how one protestant denomination differs from all the rest. The OP was asking basically if it is a good idea to attend the invalid “ordination” of a protestant minister. I would like to stay on that topic.

What is it that they “know full well what they are doing” that others not being “ordained” don’t know?
They know fully well that they are choosing to be protestant pastors, of course. What else are they doing on their ordination day? What does the word protestant mean? To protest against something. Against what we well know from history.

Didn’t you say earlier they “knew full well”? Now there are levels of understanding?
Of course there are! As many levels as there are unique people, else you and I would be in perfect agreement! :harp:

Where is the “misrepresentation”?
For one, that their orders are somehow valid as those in the Catholic Church. You do believe in the One Holy,Catholic and Apostolic Church?

I’m surprised you are not shouting from the rooftops or on TV to the whole world those things. Why do you even wait for those moments? I thought you are supposed to be a full time Catholic… or do you only get payed when there are protestant “ordinations”?
I have no idea what you are saying here at all. Who is up on a rooftop? Not you I hope! If so, please come down and calm down!

Again… I ask… why are you not shouting from the rooftops or on TV the same things? Why are you running from it?
From what?

Still with the confusing arguments that don’t really explain your position… they are fully aware or have different levels of understanding?
Again, what is your difficulty with people having different levels of understanding? Each person is unique.

I thought you wanted to speak these truths to them?
Why would you speak to the truths? Do they answer you back?
I thought God was the source of your Faith… not “joy” (Warm and fuzzy feelings creeping in huh? Those darned Protestants must be getting to you).
That’s exactly what I stated, we should choose God over warm and fuzzy feelings. I think you mis-read something here. :angel1:

And did you read the book where he wrote he realized he was wrong because someone skipped his ordination?

If you are speaking of the eminent scholar, Dr. Scott Hahn, he walked into a Catholic Mass and realized that everything he saw was written in the New Testament he had studied. His book "The Lamb’s Supper, the Mass as Heaven on Earth is a brilliant work, proof that individuals have different levels of understanding at different times during their lives.

I don’t believe that the “ordination” of a Protestant minister opposes MY Faith.
And you still have to go a long way to explain how it opposes YOUR Faith. I keep hearing how it’s “warm and fuzzy” but I don’t see any argument…
You do realize the rather long history of the protestant reformation I trust?

“A protestant minister is publicly choosing to remain outside the Faith”
What, are they choosing to be Catholics!!!
As opposed to the non-minister protestants? In what way?
Again, we all make choices.
Maybe then all those who really consider themselves Protestants should want to be ordained… they seem not to be protesting publicly too much according to you.

I am in Peace…
I’m having fun =)
I do hope you are, but you have so many questions. I trust I’ve answered them for you. You see, we are all truly at different levels of understanding with unique opinions, each person to be equally respected by the other, and all are equally loved by our Heavenly Father.

God Bless!
And God Bless you. Please have a safe and happy holiday weekend. :grouphug::heaven:
Daniel