Attending Protestant "ordination" is sinful?

[dskysmine]

At their “ordination” ceremony, obviously. What do you think they’re announcing? Their fidelity to Rome?

My friend… your definition of “perpetrating” something is very confusing. They do not care about what the Vatican thinks or not thinks about their choice. When you say that they are “perpetrating” protestantism with their “Ordination” it means you don’t think they were “perpetrating” it before… which is completely insane. It’s not like they sit on their couch and think “How can I perpetrate Protestantism tomorrow? I know… I’ll get an Ordination!”…
As soon as I read your reply I could not stop laughing, I’m sorry. It’s just so extraordinarily funny that I cannot take it seriously.

We’re speaking of the protestant invalid “ordination” vs. the valid Catholic Holy Orders, not about how one protestant denomination differs from all the rest. The OP was asking basically if it is a good idea to attend the invalid “ordination” of a protestant minister. I would like to stay on that topic.

My question was not about different denominations… it was about the people from the same denomination as that “ordained” minister that are not ordained. It was a question to try to find out how is that you reach the conclusion that people that are “ordained” make a choice of standing outside the Catholic Church while apparently (according to your logic) people from the same denomination that do not choose to be ordained are not.

They know fully well that they are choosing to be protestant pastors, of course. What else are they doing on their ordination day? What does the word protestant mean? To protest against something. Against what we well know from history.

See above question…

Of course there are! As many levels as there are unique people, else you and I would be in perfect agreement!

I thought we were talking about them… not us. You blame them for making something with full knowledge and yet you consider that it is possible that some don’t have the same level of understanding… that means you are contradicting yourself.

For one, that their orders are somehow valid as those in the Catholic Church. You do believe in the One Holy,Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Where and when and who has ever said that they believe that their “orders” are “valid” as those in the Catholic Church? Please provide evidence.

I have no idea what you are saying here at all. Who is up on a rooftop? Not you I hope! If so, please come down and calm down!

You said that we should use the moment of ordination to spread “the Truth”. I was surprised that you choose that particular moment over say… your whole life.

From what?

From the love that calls you to do it.

Again, what is your difficulty with people having different levels of understanding? Each person is unique.

Apparently for you they aren’t…
You blame them for making something with full knowledge and yet you consider that it is possible that some don’t have the same level of understanding… that means you are contradicting yourself.

That’s exactly what I stated, we should choose God over warm and fuzzy feelings. I think you mis-read something here.

No you didn’t… that’s why I quoted you… check my previous post and reread what you wrote.

If you are speaking of the eminent scholar, Dr. Scott Hahn, he walked into a Catholic Mass and realized that everything he saw was written in the New Testament he had studied. His book "The Lamb’s Supper, the Mass as Heaven on Earth is a brilliant work, proof that individuals have different levels of understanding at different times during their lives.

Sarcasm alert… (from my post, in case you didn’t notice.)

You do realize the rather long history of the protestant reformation I trust?

Yes. And I also know that MY Faith doesn’t depend on strangers or outsiders… maybe yours does?

What, are they choosing to be Catholics!!!

No… that was not the question that they were asked… right? And notice how you don’t answer my question? It’s called “Evading the question”.

I do hope you are, but you have so many questions. I trust I’ve answered them for you. You see, we are all truly at different levels of understanding with unique opinions, each person to be equally respected by the other, and all are equally loved by our Heavenly Father.

We are equally loved by our Heavenly Father. But He didn’t choose to give everyone the same capacity of understanding, which makes some people a little more confused when dealing with subjects they don’t really have arguments to present.

Thank you for the good wishes.
Have a wonderful evening and may God be always in your heart.
Daniel

P.S.: It would be quicker for others to quote you if you didn’t write your answers inside quotations from other people. If you’d like I am more than willing to teach you to use the quotation in a more charitable way.

 

[LilyM]

Daniel, Protestant ministers are choosing to be spiritual leaders within their faith communities in a way that goes well beyond the ordinary Joe or Jane pew-sitter in their churches. They’re the ones up the front preaching and leading the prayer and worship, for starters. That in itself makes them more of a representative of their faith, as our priests and bishops are of ours, than the average congregant.

And to get to the stage of ordination they usually go into deep study of their faith, as our priests do of our faith. Sometimes years of study. Their learning in their faith has to exceed that of their congregation, because they are the one congregants and visitors will come to with queries about their faith, and they will expect good and deeply-thought answers backed up by intellectual knowledge. That removes any element of ignorance.

Most of the time, like our priests, they will learn at least the basics of other faiths, including Catholicism, so as to be able to undestand the viewpoint of people of those other faiths who will cross their paths and want to discuss religion with them. That removes the element of ignorance of Catholicism in particular.

And they will be looking for converts more than the average pewsitter, because, very bluntly, they are the ones who are out of a job if numbers go down, and without converts they will go down over time.

So - ordination in a Protestant faith is a much more thought out and considered rejection of the truths of Catholicism than that of the average cradle Protestant. And they are much more responsible for teaching and preaching, and converting, and therefore spreading error, than the average congregant.

 

[Miriam1947]

edit

Attending ceremonies of other religions is, at least in some circumstances, a different matter.** Christianity really has no similar ceremony to, say, the Bar Mitzvah or the bris of Judaism.** So there is less possibility of scandal or of anyone reading an implication of equivalence into your attendance.

Since we came from the Jews (after all, the original believers were Jews) we are just attending a ceremony of our elder brothers in the belief in the One God.

We are perfected Jews (even though many of us are/were gentiles before Catholicism) and many of our ceremonies, vestments, beliefs follow.

 

[Miriam1947]

That’s not what I meant at all - I mean if you have relationships with people, within communities you have to be present to them and not distance yourself. If you discard your relationships how can you evangelize within those relationships?

Within relationships you can evangelize.

My wife and I were invited to a same sex “marriage” of my wife’s “BFF” and another. We told them we could not attend because of our beliefs. They understood and expected that.

However I think a SS marriage is in a whole different order than an ordination of a friend in a mainline church.

Especially if the Church is one which the Catholic Church would recognize as having a valid form of marriage.

And here’s my backup from EWTN!

Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.
ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur131.htm

Love your blog.

 

[triumphguy]

Thank you Miriam!

You (other) guys are making it sound like a conspiracy. As if the protestant churches know the truth but are deliberately hiding it, and are perpetrating a hoax. But these guys are sincere!

They are not deliberately spreading error, they are teaching the truth as they know it!

 

[nightranger]

Someone I know is being “ordained” (if it can really be called that) a Protestant minister today. My family is planning on going to see her “ordination” today, and I think it might be an interesting experience. Would it be sinful to attend? The “Ask an Apologist” questions regarding this certainly seem to discourage it. I don’t want to embarass myself before my family by refusing to go.

What should I do?

I think people worry too much about such things. You know there are no valid sacraments outside the church (other than baptism and marriage), so I don’t think it will poison your soul to attend. I’ve attended similar ceremonies. I think it’s more a matter of good manners than participating in an invalid sacrament.

It’s like attending a Protestant funeral. It’s just the courteous thing to do.

 

[Miriam1947]

I don’t think anyone has argued that protestant ordinations are equal at all.

I don’t believe that a lay person going to a friend’s protestant ordination screams to the world that the Catholic Church believes they are equal.

I don’t believe there are any more official teachings “out there” that would say we shouldn’t go.

Right now there are competing values: the value you are supporting is that you don’t want anyone to think that the Church is approving of protestant ordination.

The value I’m defending is the right to support a friend trying to live according to the call they are hearing through their own Church.

I just don’t think that avoiding an important moment in my friend’s life to prove I am Catholic would be very Christian.

If I was wearing a mitre my answer would be different.

I agree with what you are saying here.

Christ said if they are not against Him, they are for Him.

This is someone devoting their life to Christ. Are they correct in all all their beliefs? Probably not, if they aren’t Catholic. Are they still a friend of Christ? I say yes.

I wasn’t Catholic for most of my life.

Think the parable of the landowners and his workers.

kingdavid.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/understanding-the-parable-workers-in-the-vineyard/

In the parable, a landowner went out to find workers for his vineyard and agreed to pay each a day’s wage. In the morning, he sees people idling in the marketplace and employed them to work in his vineyard. He did the same thing at noon, in the afternoon and in the evening. Came the end of the day, by his order, his supervisor paid the workers beginning with the latter hired going on to first hired. The earlier hired ones expected to receive more than promised since the latter ones are paid as much. However, when they are paid the same and they grumbled.

I’m the latter worker. Am I grateful that the landowner paid me the same? You betcha!

 

[Miriam1947]

So…if the couple themselves are the ministers of their own marriage…then, if a Catholic couple gets married in a protestant church–or barefoot on the beach in Bali, saying their own vows, for that matter–it is valid sacrament to the Catholic church?

No

 

[Miriam1947]

dskysmine

Every day I pray I thank God that I am Catholic because a lot of other people did not have the same luck as I did to being born in a Catholic family. How can I blame someone for being born in “the wrong faith”?

Every single day I thank God that He made me Catholic. I was not born Catholic but God made me one.

And yeah I was born into the wrong faith for me.

 

[LilyM]

Thank you Miriam!

You (other) guys are making it sound like a conspiracy. As if the protestant churches know the truth but are deliberately hiding it, and are perpetrating a hoax. But these guys are sincere!

They are not deliberately spreading error, they are teaching the truth as they know it!

Not perhaps deliberately, however error is error and we who know the truth should do what we can to avoid further spread of it.

If I hear a young child tell another young child that 2+2=5, I do not presume they are deliberately misleading the other child.

However, those children will both have all sorts of difficulties if they do not learn the truth as quickly as possible. For one, they may be cheated out of change by shopkeepers, or worse accused of cheating others if they give them incorrect change. For two, they may take the wrong dose of some harmful drug if they cannot calculate the correct amount.

And I may be at fault if I do not each them that truth and they are harmed or harm others through their ignorance. So of course I will straight away tell them that 2+2 is in fact 4. I will of course also do so in the most courteous possible way.

 

[Miriam1947]

Not perhaps deliberately, however error is error and we who know the truth should do what we can to avoid further spread of it.

If I hear a young child tell another young child that 2+2=5, I do not presume they are deliberately misleading the other child.

However, those children will both have all sorts of difficulties if they do not learn the truth as quickly as possible. For one, they may be cheated out of change by shopkeepers, or worse accused of cheating others if they give them incorrect change. For two, they may take the wrong dose of some harmful drug if they cannot calculate the correct amount.

And I may be at fault if I do not each them that truth and they are harmed or harm others through their ignorance. So of course I will straight away tell them that 2+2 is in fact 4. I will of course also do so in the most courteous possible way.

I cannot answer charitably so I will not answer your statement at all.

I just am thankful to God that I came into the Church with loving and forgivng and understanding Catholics.

I do not feel from what I read from you that you would have welcomed me. After all I was an apostate. I didn’t have the true faith. I wasn’t a believing Catholic. In fact I was a pagan.

Send me straight to hell. I obviously deserved nothing less.

If you were the only Catholic I had ever met, well, I’m not sure I would have seen the beauty of the Church.

I’m glad I never met you then.

 

[LilyM]

I cannot answer charitably so I will not answer your statement at all.

I just am thankful to God that I came into the Church with loving and forgivng and understanding Catholics.

I do not feel from what I read from you that you would have welcomed me. After all I was an apostate. I didn’t have the true faith. I wasn’t a believing Catholic. In fact I was a a pagan.

Send me straight to hell. I obviously deserved nothing less.

If you were the only Catholic I had ever met, well, I’m not sure I would have seen the beauty of the Church.

I’m glad I never met you then.

I would love you every bit as much as I love that child who says 2+2=5 - which means I would love you a lot. Whatever your circumstances. I don’t and never would think that you deserve Hell (at least no more than I do) any more than I would think that child deserves it!

You ever heard the saying ‘God loves people exactly where they are, but He loves them far too much to leave them there’? He constantly calls us onward and upward toward Himself. He doesn’t always do so gently, y’know! And we need to give the same call to those we meet. In factwe are commanded to do so - ‘if your brother sins, rebuke him’. Note that it’s not ‘if your brother sins, pat him on the back and tell him everything is fine and he’s just flawlessly correct in every single thing he says and does and thinks’.

And it can be done charitably but firmly. People in my life, including people on here, have done it for me. And I am grateful for it. I don’t and never have hated them or felt that they were cold or unwelcoming or unforgiving people when they, in charity (real charity, which cares for one’s soul as much as one’s feelings) pointed out where I was doing and thinking wrong.

Gosh, I can’t help but think you must really resent with a passion that maths teacher in 2nd grade who told you you got an answer wrong on your class test! Let alone anyone else who’s ever tried to tell you that you were doing something wrong or not quite correct in your thinking in some way.

How on earth do you get along with bosses, co-workers, family members - can they never tell you about your mistakes (and we all make 'em) without being accused of being uncharitable, unwelcoming and unforgiving?

I can’t imagine that you’d warm to Jesus at all. He regularly corrected His disciples quite forcefully, and even called Peter Satan not to mention using many other names for people which were very nearly as bad.

Nor to John the Baptist who stood up so courageously to King Herod when he was wrong.

Nor to St Paul, who called the Galatians (and doubtless many other people) foolish and worse.

 

[Moore11]

I think it is important to point out that it isnt as simple as people just following the truth as they know it. You could say the same thing for any belief system. However as Catholics we are fortunate enough to have the ENTIRE Truth. And we are calling them “protestants”.
Now if one had never heard of the Catholic Church, fine, if they had been raised in a household that told them lies and untruths about the Church so that is all they knew of the Catholic Church, fine. But when one reads scripture, given to them by God through the Catholic Church, when one attends a seminary for whatever denomination they are being “ordained” in when one takes upon themselves the responsibility to teach with the Authority of Christ Himself, then one cannot claim ignorance any longer, which is why I feel that it is more scandelous to attend an ordination than a baptism or marriage in a protestant church.

 

[Moore11]

I cannot answer charitably so I will not answer your statement at all.

I just am thankful to God that I came into the Church with loving and forgivng and understanding Catholics.

I do not feel from what I read from you that you would have welcomed me. After all I was an apostate. I didn’t have the true faith. I wasn’t a believing Catholic. In fact I was a pagan.

Send me straight to hell. I obviously deserved nothing less.

If you were the only Catholic I had ever met, well, I’m not sure I would have seen the beauty of the Church.

I’m glad I never met you then.

But you chose the Catholic Church.:clapping::extrahappy:
And I trust it was because of something more than the aesthetics of the faith. I hope it was more about the Truth of the faith. Which is why we can say that protestants do not have the Fullness of Truth. And to be clear, I don’t believe the OP has ever defined what protestant faith this is. It could be any number of things some closer to the Catholic Church than others. This person could be Anglican or a five point Calvanist. (though probably not the Calvanist as the person being ordained is a woman, which brings a whole new batch of objections a Catholic could have about attending.

 

[triumphguy]

Not perhaps deliberately, however error is error and we who know the truth should do what we can to avoid further spread of it.

If I hear a young child tell another young child that 2+2=5, I do not presume they are deliberately misleading the other child.

However, those children will both have all sorts of difficulties if they do not learn the truth as quickly as possible. For one, they may be cheated out of change by shopkeepers, or worse accused of cheating others if they give them incorrect change. For two, they may take the wrong dose of some harmful drug if they cannot calculate the correct amount.

And I may be at fault if I do not each them that truth and they are harmed or harm others through their ignorance. So of course I will straight away tell them that 2+2 is in fact 4. I will of course also do so in the most courteous possible way.

And if I hear a child tell another that 2+2=5 I congratulate the child for his/her interest in math and ask if they would like to learn more.

You can’t just force the right answer down peoples’ throats, you have to build relationship first.

I keep returning to this thread like a dog to its vomit!

But when people are wrong on the internet…

 

[triumphguy]

May I suggest that people watch this video - it’s the story of a Pentecostal pastors conversion to the Catholic Church.

His conversion experience throws light on this conversation.

 

[LilyM]

And if I hear a child tell another that 2+2=5 I congratulate the child for his/her interest in math and ask if they would like to learn more.

You can’t just force the right answer down peoples’ throats, you have to build relationship first.

I keep returning to this thread like a dog to its vomit!

But when people are wrong on the internet…

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/duty_calls.png

But this is the OP’s friend - the relationship has already been built

And I don’t know any parent who wouldn’t skin alive a maths teacher - or anyone else for that matter - who failed to correct their child promptly when they got a maths sum wrong, or worse still was teaching another child wrongly - relationship be hanged.

I can see it now:

TG’s opponent in court, whom he has never met before: ‘Your Honour and members of the jury, the law clearly states that the accused must be presumed guilty until proven innocent …’

TG: ‘I commend my colleague for his interest in the law and wonder whether he would like to learn further [here TG carefully and deliberately omits even to hint that that the accused is in fact innocent until proven guilty, since he has ‘built up no relationship’ with the
opposing lawyer]’

How favorably do you think the judge and your client would look upon you for doing such a thing?

 

[triumphguy]

May I suggest that people watch this video - it’s the story of a Pentecostal pastors conversion to the Catholic Church.

His conversion experience throws light on this conversation.

I forgot the link: youtube.com/watch?v=mxDumU0TSrY&feature=related

You can choose for yourself which side of the argument this video supports.

 

[triumphguy]

But this is the OP’s friend - the relationship has already been built

And I don’t know any parent who wouldn’t skin alive a maths teacher - or anyone else for that matter - who failed to correct their child promptly when they got a maths sum wrong, or worse still was teaching another child wrongly - relationship be hanged.

I can see it now:

TG’s opponent in court, whom he has never met before: ‘Your Honour and members of the jury, the law clearly states that the accused must be presumed guilty until proven innocent …’

TG: ‘I commend my colleague for his interest in the law and wonder whether he would like to learn further [here TG carefully and deliberately omits even to hint that that the accused is in fact innocent until proven guilty, since he has ‘built up no relationship’ with the
opposing lawyer]’

How favorably do you think the judge and your client would look upon you for doing such a thing?

Still up are you?

Au contraire my learned friend! I’m saying innocent until proven guilty - that’s why you CAN go to an ordination!

Anyhoo - the Journey Home Series is very inspiring and you can see how God works EVEN in the Protestant churches!

 

[LilyM]

Still up are you?

Au contraire my learned friend! I’m saying innocent until proven guilty - that’s why you CAN go to an ordination!

Anyhoo - the Journey Home Series is very inspiring and you can see how God works EVEN in the Protestant churches!

I’m Australian, it’s middle of the afternoon here. And m’learned friend doth miss the point.

Your duty in my scenario would clearly be to correct ASAP the misstatement of law by your opponent, even when you’ve never clapped eyes on them before and have no ‘relationship’.

To fail to correct them would make you look equally ignorant of the law yourself, and also get you in heap big trouble with both the judge and your client for not knowing or doing your duty.