attn anyone who doesnt believe in praying to saints, angels or mary

[estesbob]

Which Jews rejected them?
When did they reject them?
With what authority? (Bible verse?)
The Saduccees only accepted the first few books so they rejected more than just 7 books
There was not OT canon at the time of Christ

If God gave the Jews the canon why isn’t your OT in the exact same order as the Jewish OT?

And as another poster pointed out - why didn’t He give them the NT?
If he told them but they didn’t listen how can we be sure they listened correctly for the OT?

The Bible does tell us that men under the insp of the Holy Spirit wrote scripture but it doesn’t tell us which men and writings are inspired. We had to look to the Church to find that out.

At the Council of Rome in 382 AD Pope Damascus decreed a 73 book canon that has never changed. There has never been an ‘official’ 66 book canon of the Bible unitl the Protestant reformations when various gropus rejected the OT Deuterocanon, though they still accepted the NT Deuterocanon.

The idea tht the Jews had a counci and rejected these books is a myth; catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp

 

[rev_kevin]

Nope I don’t

 

[dianaiad]

As far as a saint having more “punch”, James 5:16 talks about the prayer of a righteous man having great power in its effects. You might argue that you are just as righteous as those in heaven, and you might even be right. Yet you will ask your fellow “righteous” friends, saints on earth, to pray for and with you, so why not those in heaven? They are certainly no less righteous.

And for those who pray to saints instead of God, all I can say is I’ve never met anybody like that. The saints point us to God. The people I know who pay attention to saints use their examples to grow closer to God. If there is anybody who actually prays to saints bug ignore God, know that they are not practicing what Catholicism teaches. In fact, nowhere does the Church teach it is *necessary *to pray to saints.

I can honestly say that I have met several Catholics who have never once prayed to the Father, except for the “Lord’s Prayer,” --the “Our Father which art in Heaven.” They will ask Mary to pray for them, or ask the Saints to pray for them, but they do not. The thought of it actually bothers them on a visceral level–it’s almost as if praying directly to God would be an act of extreme disrespect. I do not, of course, know whether this attitude is wide spread, or restricted to this small group.

As I said, however, I do believe that we should spend at least as much time praying for ourselves as we do asking others to pray in our behalves, whether those others are on this side of the grave—or the other side. As well, what of those friends who ask you to pray for them? To whom do you address your prayers in that instance?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

And amongst those talents would be the power of intercession with God, or if you like, a delegation of authority in heaven, just as for now He gives delegation of authority within His church even on earth. Does your pastor have authority in your church?

If so, where did he get it from?

Same thing, but at a higher level. In the end all the prayers are answered by God, but He takes a bit more notice when they’ve come through what might be called approved channels. He wants a cooperative effort, but so many Protestants don’t seem to want that to happen.

It seems that a lot is being added, that the parable doesnt say. I still have to wonder why Jesus did not instruct the deciples to pray to God through Abraham, or job. Why didnt Paul instruct the Corinthians to pray to Stephan? Protestants want thier prayers answered, thats why they follow the instuctions for prayer that were given by the creator of the universe. Were funny that way.

 

[Canto]

I can honestly say that I have met several Catholics who have never once prayed to the Father, except for the “Lord’s Prayer,” --the “Our Father which art in Heaven.” They will ask Mary to pray for them, or ask the Saints to pray for them, but they do not. The thought of it actually bothers them on a visceral level–it’s almost as if praying directly to God would be an act of extreme disrespect. I do not, of course, know whether this attitude is wide spread, or restricted to this small group.

As I said, however, I do believe that we should spend at least as much time praying for ourselves as we do asking others to pray in our behalves, whether those others are on this side of the grave—or the other side. As well, what of those friends who ask you to pray for them? To whom do you address your prayers in that instance?

How much is several? Curious.

The Saints take our prayers to God so in a way we do pray to Him through the Saints but often also pray to him directly or through the Son.

The Mass, the liturgy of the hours (the hours of the day divided into prayer i.e. vespers, lauds etc) are for our God. So we don’t ignore Him, He is very much at the centre of our lives.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven said Jesus
Can error be bound in heaven - nope
So sounds like infallibility to me

A clear reference to infallibility! Surly this has been how its was understood since the first century, right???

 

[dianaiad]

How much is several? Curious.

I’m trying to count and remember names…I think it’s around five to seven… you know, more than 'a couple," and less than 'a few…"

The Saints take our prayers to God so in a way we do pray to Him through the Saints but often also pray to him directly or through the Son.

I understand that concept; Mormons have it too, in a way, though we address all our prayers directly to our Father in Heaven, we always close in the Name of Jesus Christ, so in a very real way we are praying through Jesus the Christ. Still, the prayer is addressed to God the Father.

However, that’s not quite the same thing as directly addressing Mary or the Saints, and asking them to intervene on your behalf. We do that, too, of course. That is, we will ask our living relatives and friends to pray for us. When they do, we know that they are directly addressing the Father in the Name of the Son, the way I suspect you believe Mary or the Saints will do for you.

The Mass, the liturgy of the hours (the hours of the day divided into prayer i.e. vespers, lauds etc) are for our God. So we don’t ignore Him, He is very much at the centre of our lives.

Nor am I saying any different. As I mentioned, the reasoning these Catholics to whom I spoke gave for asking Mary and the Saints to intercede for them rather than to approach Him directly was respect for Him, not because they were ignoring Him.

 

[Canto]

A clear reference to infallibility! Surly this has been how its was understood since the first century, right???

If error can’t be bound in heaven then there must be infalibility, at least for St Peter if you don’t believe in apostolic succession.

When Poep Damascus decreed the offical 73 book Bible Canon at the council of Rome in 382 AD he quoted from the verse

Pope Clement I: “Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us… Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret… If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [God] through us [that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger… You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy…” (Letter to the Corinthians 1:1, 58:2-59:1,63:2[A.D.80]).

Ignatius of Antioch “You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).”

Cyprian of Carthage: “Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?”

Cyprian of Carthage: "the Lord says to Peter; ’I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt 16:18-19])…On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Be that as it may, you are still not addressing the question → Why do the ‘children of God’ need a mediator to pray to their ‘Father’ on their behalf?

Children do NOT need a mediator to ask their loving father for anything at all.

Slaves do NOT need a mediator to ask their benevolent Master for anything at all.

On the other hand, subordinates do indeed need a higher level superior to mediate for them when they wish to ask the ‘Big Boss’ for anything that they may desire.

Like I have mentioned, Christians CANNOT have it both ways here, EITHER they consider themselves to be the children and/or the slaves of God and hence they would pray directly to God without a mediator… OR … they would consider themselves to be lower ranked servants and hence they need to go through a higher level superior to pray to the Lord on their behalf.

lets try this a different way, Who is the mediator?Jesus . Who is Jesus? God So who is betwene the Father and His children? No one.

 

[Canto]

It seems that a lot is being added, that the parable doesnt say. I still have to wonder why Jesus did not instruct the deciples to pray to God through Abraham, or job. Why didnt Paul instruct the Corinthians to pray to Stephan? Protestants want thier prayers answered, thats why they follow the instuctions for prayer that were given by the creator of the universe. Were funny that way.

Oral Tradtion, which St Paul orders us to hold onto, has no problem with intercession, it’s only in recent times its been a problem for some.

But what does the Bible, which comes via tradtion say…

In Revelation 8:3 an angel interceedes and offers up the prayers of the saints on the altar before the throne of God.

John 2:11 Mary interceedes at the wedding feast at Cana and Jesus turns water into wine.

Philemon 22 Paul is hoping through Philemon’s **intercession **that he may be able to be with Philemon.

1 Tim 2:1 St Paul tells Christians to interceede, he doesn’t say only those on earth

Jer 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people to God for them saying "pray to the Lord our God for us."

Hail Mary… pray for us siners…Amen.

Jer 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession saying "pray for us to the Lord"

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel **intercedes **for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Oral Tradtion, which St Paul orders us to hold onto, has no problem with intercession, it’s only in recent times its been a problem for some.

But what does the Bible, which comes via tradtion say…

In Revelation 8:3 an angel interceedes and offers up the prayers of the saints on the altar before the throne of God.

John 2:11 Mary interceedes at the wedding feast at Cana and Jesus turns water into wine.

Philemon 22 Paul is hoping through Philemon’s **intercession **that he may be able to be with Philemon.

1 Tim 2:1 St Paul tells Christians to interceede, he doesn’t say only those on earth

Jer 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people to God for them saying "pray to the Lord our God for us."

Hail Mary… pray for us siners…Amen.

Jer 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession saying "pray for us to the Lord"

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel **intercedes **for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

I have heard these arguments and have not been convinced that it’s something that should be done, but Im also not terribly concerned that it is something that shouldnt be done. But I reject the notion that protestants just dont want their prayers answered or that our prayers that are offered in the way that Jesus taught us are of less effect.

 

[Canto]

I have heard these arguments and have not been convinced that it’s something that should be done, but Im also not terribly concerned that it is something that shouldnt be done.

It doesn’t have to be done
But its not a bad thing

But I reject the notion that protestants just dont want their prayers answered or that our prayers that are offered in the way that Jesus taught us are of less effect.

Hopefuly no one has said that here.

Jesus said pray our Father… but as the author of the Bible we see many instances where intercession takes place like the Angels in heaven presenting the prayers of the saints before God or the intercession of Jeremiah.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Nope I don’t

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us a

 

[Incomplete]

I can honestly say that I have met several Catholics who have never once prayed to the Father, except for the “Lord’s Prayer,” --the “Our Father which art in Heaven.” They will ask Mary to pray for them, or ask the Saints to pray for them, but they do not. The thought of it actually bothers them on a visceral level–it’s almost as if praying directly to God would be an act of extreme disrespect. I do not, of course, know whether this attitude is wide spread, or restricted to this small group.

As I said, however, I do believe that we should spend at least as much time praying for ourselves as we do asking others to pray in our behalves, whether those others are on this side of the grave—or the other side. As well, what of those friends who ask you to pray for them? To whom do you address your prayers in that instance?

They’ve actually said that? If so, that’s sad. And understand that it’s not Catholic teaching. I don’t know why it should bother them; prayers during Mass are addressed to God, and presumably they’re praying with the congregation. I’m also assuming it’s restricted to that group. I know many faithful Catholics, Catholics who attend daily Mass, Catholics who grow in faith through learning about the saints, who address the majority of their prayers to God. I attend a Catholic Bible study (run by our priest) and we take turns leading prayer each week…and I’ve yet to hear any of them address their prayers to a saint.

As far as when friends ask us to pray, I can’t answer for other Catholics, but I address the majority of my prayers to God anyway, so I do the same when friends ask me to pray.

For me, an example of praying to Mary is this: in moments of weakness, in addition to praying to God (I often address all three in the Trinity) I will often ask Mary to help me draw closer to God.

 

[mmmcounts]

me: have you ever called the doctor but his book was full, but the receptionist took pity on your situation and saw you were truly in need of the doctor and fit you in anyway- same idea

I have never made a call to God and found that He was busy. The very nature of who God is doesn’t allow for it.

Catholics actually do worship Mary and the saints, but for Catholics, worship is divided into Latria, Hyperdulia, and Dulia. The differences between these three things are held to be drastic, but that is questionable and perhaps testable.

I’m done.

 

[SteveVH]

I can honestly say that I have met several Catholics who have never once prayed to the Father, except for the “Lord’s Prayer,” --the “Our Father which art in Heaven.” They will ask Mary to pray for them, or ask the Saints to pray for them, but they do not. The thought of it actually bothers them on a visceral level–it’s almost as if praying directly to God would be an act of extreme disrespect. I do not, of course, know whether this attitude is wide spread, or restricted to this small group.

As I said, however, I do believe that we should spend at least as much time praying for ourselves as we do asking others to pray in our behalves, whether those others are on this side of the grave—or the other side. As well, what of those friends who ask you to pray for them? To whom do you address your prayers in that instance?

I think you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of Catholics pray directly to God. Most formal prayers are directed to God the Father, through His Son Jesus Christ. There are also many prayers that are directed to God in this manner with the added request of the intercession of one saint or another, most frequently Mary.

What most non-Catholics don’t understand is the concept of the “Communion of Saints” in which we believe the Church in heaven is not separated from the Church on earth, but that we are in communion with each other and can communicate through prayer. So there is no difference in asking someone in heaven to pray for us from asking you to pray for me. I don’t think anyone disagrees that intercessory prayer is valid, the only difference is who are you asking to pray for you.