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Bill_Pick
Guest
A few years ago i was not in good health and I had a Baptist peacher call on me at the hosp and he was going to say another as he was leaving and I said yes I will say a pray with you and I said it must be To Mary
attn anyone who doesnt believe in praying to saints, angels or mary
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estesbob
Guest
And you know this because? And while the Holy Spirit was telling them to reject these seven bools wouldnt it have made sense for him to tell them to accpet the New Testament?
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Lutheranteach
Guest
At about a 1:50 is the perspective many, if not most protestants have.
youtube.com/watch?v=n2FOGZ_X_cw&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=n2FOGZ_X_cw&feature=related
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jericho777
Guest
So you are saying the Holy Spirit did not approve or canonize the OT. We should not trust Jesus because he never called into question His word?Where’s that in the Bible
Ethiopian Jews from what I’ve read accept them
The Sadducces accepted only the first few books
There was no Jewish Canon at the time of Christ
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Canto
Guest
How about a Bible verse that says everything to believe is in the Bible and never go outside the Bible for anything ???
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator…
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
If you hold onto the oral tradtion St Paul commands you to and realise that Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, then you will know that praying to God through the Saints is perfectly fine.
Under your protection we flee, O Holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions…
This is one of the oldest known Marian prayers and was found (in A.D. 1917) on a Christian Egyptian papyrus dating to the 200s. This prayer has been prayed for millennia as a concluding prayer in Compline.
“[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.” Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).
“Only may that power come upon us which strengthens weakness, through the prayers of him* who made his own strength perfect in bodily weakness.” Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 1:1(A.D. 380).
“Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master…Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf…For we make commemoration of the just and of sinners: of sinners, begging God’s mercy for them; of the just and the Fathers and Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles and Evangelists and martyrs and confessors, and of bishops and solitaries, and of the whole list of them…” Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 377).
“But God forbid that any in this fair assembly should appear there suffering such things! but by the prayers of the holy fathers, correcting all our offences, and having shown forth the abundant fruit of virtue, may we depart hence with much confidence.” John Chrysostom, On Statues, Homily 6:19 (A.D. 387).*
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Canto
Guest
Pope Damascus at the Council of Rome 382 AD decreed a 73 book canon under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - so yes I trust Jesus!
The Jews were not given a canon by the Holy Spirit.
This is not recorded in Scripture and the historical evidence shows that at the time of Christ they had no offical canon. The Saduccees as I noted only accepted the first few books for example.
You have a 66 book canon right? But you didn’t get that from the Bible, you had to go outside the Bible. Now you may say the Spirit led you but so might Jews, Catholics and Orthodox, all who have less or more books than what you accept.
CAN you show me an offical canon prior to or after the Council of Rome that has 66 books alone???
Athanasis for example included Baruch, Cyril excluded Revelation
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jericho777
Guest
It’s not in the Jewish bible. Why? Those books were around when the OT was canonized. So you are saying it was a Jewish conspiracy for rejecting those books? You know the Jews were blinded for our sakes so we could be grafted onto the olive tree. Rom 11:11-24 Don’t worry the Jews are still Gods chosen people.
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Canto
Guest
When was the OT canonised? I’ve never read about such a date.
The Deuterocanon books were used by Jews
They formed part of their prayer, liturgy and festival life
They were written in Hebrew (except 1 of 2)
They were found amongst the dead sea scrolls
The Early Church from the 1st century quoted from them
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jericho777
Guest
Would you agree with me that when the pastor says they are dead, he does not mean to imply soul sleep, since the Apology states:
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osddso
Guest
Ahhh…see post #46. jlhargus has it covered.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
it ok we just have a lot of anti-cathloic here that do not know how to read a bible
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Canto
Guest
Tradtion - we must hold onto it
Tradtion says prayer to God through the Saints is fine
We have presented a plethora of Bible verses that show this is fine
Here are 20 zillion more scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
There is one mediator but this does not kill off prayers to God through the saints
The Saints take our prayer to God like in the Revelation verses we’ve quoted
St Paul tell us to interceede - well that’s what the Saints do
We are his fellow workers after all, aren’t we not
You ask for a verse yet you don’t have a verse that says there are 66 books in the Bible - you went outside the Bible for that.
For example Tobit -12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God. Remember the Revelation verses too?
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Now from Non Deuterocanonical books - there are NT DC books too
1 Sameul 12:23 “And far from me be this sin against the Lord, that I should cease to pray for you: and I will teach you the good and right way.”
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
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estesbob
Guest
But those books were connonized at the same time the New testmanet was canonized. So why do accept the churchs Cannon for the New testament but not the old?
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youngsaint
Guest
Excellent comeback, and an even greater thoughtme: have you ever called the doctor but his book was full, but the receptionist took pity on your situation and saw you were truly in need of the doctor and fit you in anyway- same idea
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Hello Jericho! Thank you for your response. You didn’t really answer my question but I think it probably was a bit misleading, so I decided to answer your question. As far as I know there is no Scripture passage that states “There is another mediator between God and men in heaven other than the one Jesus.”
However, since you brought up 1 Timothy 2:5, I would like to tell you that that particular passage bothered me for a long time (a long time!) until I read the following:
1 Tim 2:5 reads as follows: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…”
“You see,” we Catholics are told, “there is only one mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ. Therefore, praying to the saints goes against the Bible because you are making them mediators between God and man, you are diminishing Jesus’ role as the sole mediator!”
Is that an appropriate interpretation of that passage? No, it’s not and let’s see why not.
In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others… that’s mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us… that’s mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where a passage of the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood.
There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.
Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11); but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation (Eph 2:19-20). Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4-5); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord (Rev 19:16). Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ (James 4:12); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge (1 Cor 6:2).
Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus’ Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus’ role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. Another example, as a father I share in God’s role as Father, by His grace. And, so also, we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ’s role as Mediator.
biblechristiansociety.com./apologetics/two_minute#15
Hope this helps explain the Catholic position!
God bless,
Christina
[SIGN]I Luv My KapukahiNeNe!![/SIGN]
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hamba2han
Guest
Do normal children need a mediator to ask their loving father for anything at all?
Christians CANNOT have it both ways here i.e. if they consider themselves to be the children of God, then why on earth do they need a mediator to pray to their ‘Father’ on their behalf?
Christians CANNOT have it both ways here i.e. if they consider themselves to be the children of God, then why on earth do they need a mediator to pray to their ‘Father’ on their behalf?
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Canto
Guest
Let’s say somone is talking to their sister on the phone and and asks “can you remind dad to pick me up from train station at 6.” Does not the sister interceede for her to their father?
When you’re sick or need help or whatever it may be, do you go straight to your father and ignore your mother and brothers and sisters etc?
Mary’s our Mum and the Saints our Brothers and Sisters - we’re one big family with God at the head!
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
Because one of the promises of Christ was that wicked, lazy servants would be punished at their judgment and their “talents” taken away from them. Good servants however would have their talents increased after their judgment.
Amongst those talents or gifts would be the power of intercession with God on behalf of others.
God wants a family. In the end, that’s what it’s about. And in any family, there are lines of authority.
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hamba2han
Guest
Are you saying that there are times when the ‘Father’ is unable to hear His ‘children’?
What you are really saying here is that God is NOT all-hearing and this is something that is totally at odds with the very attributes of the Almighty and by suggesting this, you are putting very human limits on His absolute powers.
If your loving father is standing right besides your bed taking care of you when you are sick, why on earth do you need to ask your mother and sister to speak to your father?
Again, what you are saying here is that the Lord is unable to hear you when you are sick because he is absent and not besides you, caring and nurturing you back to good health.
Do you really want to say this?
In the event that our mother or sibling should pass away before our father, does this mean that we should stop talking to our father and instead pray to our dead mother or sibling to speak to our living father on our behalf?
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