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Canto
Guest
Just noting an example of a family member interceeding
Nope
I would hope they would be there with the him
God is not a hog - we are his fellow workers
Nope not saying that either
Nope
btw. Mary and the Saints are alive
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attn anyone who doesnt believe in praying to saints, angels or mary
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God is not a hog - we are his fellow workers
btw. Mary and the Saints are alive
M
MyRdmrLvs
Guest
The problem you are having is that you are seppatrating Jesus and God, they are ONE. We are not polytheists.Do normal children need a mediator to ask their loving father for anything at all?
Christians CANNOT have it both ways here i.e. if they consider themselves to be the children of God, then why on earth do they need a mediator to pray to their ‘Father’ on their behalf?
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hamba2han
Guest
Be that as it may, you are still not addressing the question → Why do the ‘children of God’ need a mediator to pray to their ‘Father’ on their behalf?The problem you are having is that you are separating Jesus and God, they are ONE. We are not polytheists.
Children do NOT need a mediator to ask their loving father for anything at all.
Slaves do NOT need a mediator to ask their benevolent Master for anything at all.
On the other hand, subordinates do indeed need a higher level superior to mediate for them when they wish to ask the ‘Big Boss’ for anything that they may desire.
Like I have mentioned, Christians CANNOT have it both ways here, EITHER they consider themselves to be the children and/or the slaves of God and hence they would pray directly to God without a mediator… OR … they would consider themselves to be lower ranked servants and hence they need to go through a higher level superior to pray to the Lord on their behalf.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I think the analogy of slaves and a benevolent Master is very weak. We are not slaves - we are loved children of God (very loved children of God). Why do you deny God’s power and love? Why do you deny God’s ability to let others share in His love and grace? It is by His grace that saints and Mary are allowed to hear us and pray with us. It is a gift to them and to us, given to us by the One Who loves us so much that His only Son allowed Himself to be mocked and murdered to grant us eternal life in Heaven.Be that as it may, you are still not addressing the question → Why do the ‘children of God’ need a mediator to pray to their ‘Father’ on their behalf?
Children do NOT need a mediator to ask their loving father for anything at all.
Slaves do NOT need a mediator to ask their benevolent Master for anything at all.
On the other hand, subordinates do indeed need a higher level superior to mediate for them when they wish to ask the ‘Big Boss’ for anything that they may desire.
Like I have mentioned, Christians CANNOT have it both ways here, EITHER they consider themselves to be the children and/or the slaves of God and hence they would pray directly to God without a mediator… OR … they would consider themselves to be lower ranked servants and hence they need to go through a higher level superior to pray to the Lord on their behalf.
We are all one in God - those of us on earth, the Saints in Heaven, Mary in Heaven. God’s grace allows us to all interact. It’s certainly not above God’s ability to let us share in His love and grace. His grace is a gift that we should accept in the spirit in which it is given.
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estesbob
Guest
Jesus and God are one and the same. Your lack of understanding of Christianity and more specifically the Trinity makes its diffcult to carry on a discussion with you on this subject.Like I have mentioned, Christians CANNOT have it both ways here, EITHER they consider themselves to be the children and/or the slaves of God and hence they would pray directly to God without a mediator… OR … they would consider themselves to be lower ranked servants and hence they need to go through a higher level superior to pray to the Lord on their behalf.
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hamba2han
Guest
The problem here is that you are picturing the term ‘slave’ in a very negative light… much like in the miniseries ‘Roots’ by Alex Haley, I would think.I think the analogy of slaves and a benevolent Master is very weak. We are not slaves - we are loved children of God (very loved children of God). Why do you deny God’s power and love? Why do you deny God’s ability to let others share in His love and grace? It is by His grace that saints and Mary are allowed to hear us and pray with us. It is a gift to them and to us, given to us by the One Who loves us so much that His only Son allowed Himself to be mocked and murdered to grant us eternal life in Heaven.
We are all one in God - those of us on earth, the Saints in Heaven, Mary in Heaven. God’s grace allows us to all interact. It’s certainly not above God’s ability to let us share in His love and grace. His grace is a gift that we should accept in the spirit in which it is given.
On the contrary, Muslims believe that to be a slave to the Most Benevolent Master of all is the absolute and essential key to true freedom.
And anyone who does NOT consider himself to be a slave of the Lord has really put himself in a delusional prison of his own making because he has instead become a slave to his own worldly desires.
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hamba2han
Guest
Like the topic of the thread says, Christians do not just pray to Jesus (pbuh), they also pray to saints, angels and Mary to mediate on their behalf in matters of worship.Jesus and God are one and the same. Your lack of understanding of Christianity and more specifically the Trinity makes its diffcult to carry on a discussion with you on this subject.
Christians therefore really must decide whether they are indeed “very loved children of God” who should not at all require mediators to pray to their loving ‘Father’… or merely lower ranked servants who need the services of their superiors to pray to the Lord on their behalf.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
My apologies. I wasn’t aware of that. I find your explanation of “slave to the Most Benevolent Master” beautiful. I agree with you about my bias. After I posted (and went to some other parts of the forum) I started thinking about how I am not worthy to even kiss the sandals that Christ wears, and I would be very happy to be a slave to Him and in fact, I am a slave to Him. It is only by His grace that I exist. I respectfully withdraw that part of my reply.The problem here is that you are picturing the term ‘slave’ in a very negative light… much like in the miniseries ‘Roots’ by Alex Haley, I would think.
On the contrary, Muslims believe that to be a slave to the Most Benevolent Master of all is the absolute and essential key to true freedom.
And anyone who does NOT consider himself to be a slave of the Lord has really put himself in a delusional prison of his own making because he has instead become a slave to his own worldly desires.
I do stand with the rest of my post, though.
Thank you for your explanation. I appreciate your kind response.
[SIGN]I Luv My Calico!![/SIGN]
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Bill_Pick
Guest
What group of Christian are you a Baptist, Luthern,or Aof G will you please tell usOn earth were are told to pray for each other. No where in scripture are we told to petition anyone other than Jesus in heaven. No one.
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estesbob
Guest
We ask Saints, Mary etc to pray for us. If asking others to pray for them is not part of the Muslim faith thats fine but again you seem to totally misunderstand what it means to “pray to the saints”.Like the topic of the thread says, Christians do not just pray to Jesus (pbuh), they also pray to saints, angels and Mary to mediate on their behalf in matters of worship.
Christians therefore really must decide whether they are indeed “very loved children of God” who should not at all require mediators to pray to their loving ‘Father’… or merely lower ranked servants who need the services of their superiors to pray to the Lord on their behalf.
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jericho777
Guest
But why were they first rejected as scripture in to the OT. The Jews take scripture very seriously so I don’t think they rejected them without having a good reason.But those books were connonized at the same time the New testmanet was canonized. So why do accept the churchs Cannon for the New testament but not the old?
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jericho777
Guest
Hi BillWhat group of Christian are you a Baptist, Luthern,or Aof G will you please tell us
I’m non denominational. Why do you ask?
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estesbob
Guest
I ask you again-if you put so much stock in the Jews opinion on what should be in scripture why do you accpet the New Testament?But why were they first rejected as scripture in to the OT. The Jews take scripture very seriously so I don’t think they rejected them without having a good reason.
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adstrinity
Guest
But, the Jews didn’t decide on what was scripture until after Jesus. No, I am not talking about the (fictional) Council of Jamnia. There are no (legitimate) Jews who only still accept the Pentatuch, are there? The Jews now accept the Protestant Cannon’s OT, which was decided because, as I understand it, and I hope somebody corrects me on this, they were found to be ligitimately Hebrew enough. They didn’t like the others because they were found to have Hellinistic influence, AND, because they definitely point to Christ as being the Saviour (though, I don’t understand, so does Isiah and they have a way to explain that it’s not).But why were they first rejected as scripture in to the OT. The Jews take scripture very seriously so I don’t think they rejected them without having a good reason.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
You may need to learn about history before you start on Faith because you need a lot of help with bothBut they rejected those seven books. They were theirs to reject because the Holy Spirit told them to.
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jericho777
Guest
Because men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote it.I ask you again-if you put so much stock in the Jews opinion on what should be in scripture why do you accpet the New Testament?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
AAA+Do you think any one will understandTradtion - we must hold onto it
Tradtion says prayer to God through the Saints is fine
We have presented a plethora of Bible verses that show this is fine
Here are 20 zillion more scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
There is one mediator but this does not kill off prayers to God through the saints
The Saints take our prayer to God like in the Revelation verses we’ve quoted
St Paul tell us to interceede - well that’s what the Saints do
We are his fellow workers after all, aren’t we not
You ask for a verse yet you don’t have a verse that says there are 66 books in the Bible - you went outside the Bible for that.
For example Tobit -12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God. Remember the Revelation verses too?
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Now from Non Deuterocanonical books - there are NT DC books too
1 Sameul 12:23 “And far from me be this sin against the Lord, that I should cease to pray for you: and I will teach you the good and right way.”
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
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estesbob
Guest
And you know this becuase…Because men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote it.
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Canto
Guest
Which Jews rejected them?But why were they first rejected as scripture in to the OT. The Jews take scripture very seriously so I don’t think they rejected them without having a good reason.
When did they reject them?
With what authority? (Bible verse?)
The Saduccees only accepted the first few books so they rejected more than just 7 books
There was not OT canon at the time of Christ
If God gave the Jews the canon why isn’t your OT in the exact same order as the Jewish OT?
And as another poster pointed out - why didn’t He give them the NT?
If he told them but they didn’t listen how can we be sure they listened correctly for the OT?
The Bible does tell us that men under the insp of the Holy Spirit wrote scripture but it doesn’t tell us which men and writings are inspired. We had to look to the Church to find that out.Because men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote it.
At the Council of Rome in 382 AD Pope Damascus decreed a 73 book canon that has never changed. There has never been an ‘official’ 66 book canon of the Bible unitl the Protestant reformations when various gropus rejected the OT Deuterocanon, though they still accepted the NT Deuterocanon.
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Canto
Guest
Thanks.AAA+Do you think any one will understand
You can tell some people till there blue in the face and they won’t listen, with respect.
Scripture for example clearly says believe and be baptised to be saved yet some say baptism is not essential.
Scripture says hold onto oral tradtion but how many non Catholic/Ordthodox do that?
Scripture says not by faith alone yet some hold what one Protestant called easy-believeism
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