Attn. Christians of Various Traditions: Women & Head Covering ?

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, Publisher.

I am friends with a convert to Catholicism. He runs a business. He told the group that he is now wearing a hat outside as a sign of respect. So when he sees someone, he takes his hand and tips the rim of his hat to show respect to the other person. Very debonair and I like it. You can read down and see a possible solution to my dilemma. Yes, the Mennonite women cover, as do the Amish women.

This could be a possible return to some kind of decorum in our X rated culture.

Petit…thank you so much for the picture of the snood. Guess what?..I told my pastor at my former parish where women do wear veils and I am comfortable wearing mine there. They have a form of Latin rite there. So people don’t think you are this or that. I told my former pastor I was getting a movement to wear a veil. He discouraged me. Then two days later a woman came up to him, who wears a large one, and gave it to him to give to someone in need.

So I got it and I made him bless it. But it turned out to be really a shawl. So it really hung heavy on me. I told him I would wear it more as a blessed prayer shawl. And I can do the prayer shawl at my more contemporary parish…that is in process if getting icons placed in the church.

But I did search for one I could wear on my head. I found this Jewish lady’s site, ‘Devorah’s…’. I got to design my headcovering with edging of the grapes and vines to symbolize dressing up for the banquet of the Lord. She makes these religious shawls, snoods, veils for both Catholic and Orthodox as well as our big sisters, the Jewish ladies.

I read a piece by a Jewish lady who said she has the most beautiful hair. She is married, but covers her hair even in her home, so that only God can see her hair. Interesting.

But I am wondering about writing something in our local Catholic paper about the idea of…‘not taking God too casually’. What about we reconsider the veils…even outside, hats for men? Considering the Mennonites, Amish, and my one gentleman movement, this is certainly something to bring forward for our people of faith…counter cultural.

 

[Publisher]

In the Mid-west and East, a number of younger Friends too are taking up the bonnet and plain hat as a disipline to be mindful of the Presence in Meeting. Some “plain Friends” wear their heads covered at all times…the men don’t “doff” their hats howeveer…they are only removed during prayer or when they are led to offer vocal ministry.

I wear a hat most days…not a plain grey or black…and not for a spiritual purpsoe but to keep my head warm and dry here in the Northwest. When I attend a Mennonite meeting house, it’s always nice to see many of the young women with head coverings.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

There is something humble and modest and about headcoverings, though I don’t think it is necessary.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes. It is a grace to witness people with faith and a sense of the sacred presence.

I am wondering again if this whole topic be brought up by our local church (diocese), and part of a movement to restore the sacred, and ‘not to approach God uncommonly’. I went to Mass yesterday and the new candidates came up in jeans, looking overly casual, grubby.

If you go too far to the other side, then dress becomes a Sunday show.

But I think the whole topic on this thread is what we have come to see the real problem in the Church and Christianity in general: the spirit of the profane world entering into our faith and practice.

I wonder…did the women who were followers of Christ, especially after His death and resurrection continue to be veiled? Did women being veiled endure for over a thousand years?..do you remember looking at old pictures…I am thinking now of the Eastern Orthodox and how the women dressed…daily, outside of church…I have impression European Christian women had their heads covered up to the Renaissance…(that had the spirit of the world)…

 

[andrewstx]

I used to be a member of a ROCOR church until it closed, that is the only church I’ve ever been in where women cover their heads routinely. But just in church. But OTOH women in Russia are called babushkas for the head covering.

I have never seen a woman covered in Greek, Antiochian, or OCA churches.

I very much doubt that women’s liberation had any influence at all on the ROCOR.

 

[Walking_Home]

SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Another objection is based upon the transitory character that one claims to see today in some of the prescriptions of Saint Paul concerning women, and upon the difficulties that some aspects of his teaching raise in this regard.** But it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on their head (1 Cor 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value**.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19761015_inter-insigniores_en.html

 

[KathleenGee]

The reality is, women must be covered at the Vatican.

And Latin was intended to be part of the Church liturgy, never removed, despite the majority of liturgists and churchmen who are opposing Latin. I heard a prominent deacon last year saying there is only one person, forget the name, who wanted to keep Latin.

You have to be careful of who you listen to and in what context, irregardless of their work in the Church, especially the North American church.

So the fact that women must wear headcoverings at the Vatican says something to me privately…and publicly it cannot be disputed how they practice there.

 

[adrift]

The reality is, women must be covered at the Vatican.

So the fact that women must wear headcoverings at the Vatican says something to me privately…and publicly it cannot be disputed how they practice there.

Do you have something that supports your assertion. When I was at the Vatican I did not see this. They did enforce no bare shoulders but I do not remember women being told to cover their heads.

I just found this web site on Papal Audience & visiting the Vatican Dress Codes The only mention of hats is about men. I believe that many still dress traditionally but it is not required. Another web site states that it is optional.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I wonder…did the women who were followers of Christ, especially after His death and resurrection continue to be veiled?

Yes. 1 Cor. 11

Did women being veiled endure for over a thousand years?

Yes. We have the Church Fathers writings combined with the Icons as witnesses.

The first I can find this practice being stopped in daily life is around the time of the secular women’s lib. movement.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I very much doubt that women’s liberation had any influence at all on the ROCOR.

To what do you attribute to the change from the earlier practice of full-time head covering in ROCOR? Was it political? Communism? Or something else?

 

[Izdaari]

I have never had any conviction about head covering and have never practiced it.

I am currently Episcopalian and Lutheran (ELCA) (dual affiliation), and have previously been Baptist and trinitarian Pentecostal. I was never taught anything about it in any of those.

 

[heart4home]

AFAIK usually the best method is using our God-given brains.

2 Peter 1:19-21: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Well how do you know your God-given brain isn’t leading you astray? We are told that no prophency of scripture is of any private interpretation.

So should we just disregard or believe Paul wrong in his exortation because we have a God given brain? That, same God-given brain btw that can lead a person’s soul right to hell if they so choose to think it is above God’s word or the Church.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

2 Peter 1:19-21: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Well how do you know your God-given brain isn’t leading you astray? We are told that no prophency of scripture is of any private interpretation.

So should we just disregard or believe Paul wrong in his exortation because we have a God given brain? That, same God-given brain btw that can lead a person’s soul right to hell if they so choose to think it is above God’s word or the Church.

 

[vames]

So should we just disregard or believe Paul wrong in his exortation because we have a God given brain? That, same God-given brain btw that can lead a person’s soul right to hell if they so choose to think it is above God’s word or the Church.

The risk that our God-given brain may lead us astray doesn’t justify the conclusion that we should fear and distrust the idea of using it.
And in this case (Paul - Tertullian - John Chrysostom’s argument) there’s nothing to fear. Neither God’s word, nor the Church command people to be scared and to protect themselves of incubi who lust after women and use them to procreate giant children. This is a myth from The Book of Enoch, a tale that is not included in the Bible. Paul and some of the early Church Fathers happened to believe the tale. The Catholic Church and most Orthodox churches don’t believe it and don’t consider it as Scripture. It’s that simple.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for (name removed by moderator)ut, Andrew and Adrift.

Adrift, that was most insightful…so women’s shoulders must be covered. I always see women with mantillas, and I must have listened instead to local talk instead of the issue of having shoulders covered. I know it is not so good to see women at Mass with halter tops, etc., bear backs.

When I have lectored, I have worn atleast 3/4 sleeves in the summer. I have not gone sleeveless. But I know there have been priests…mostly a few World War II priests, most of them now gone, who used to put dress code up in vestibules.

Interesting about knees being covered. I went to Catholic high school one year. We had classmates who gave out detention slips if they saw us downtown with our skirts rolled up over our knees, wearing our uniforms in public on way home from school…we were downtown and would go to the old Woolworth’s store for fries and coke.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

…command people to be scared and to protect themselves of incubi who lust after women and use them to procreate giant children. This is a myth from The Book of Enoch, a tale that is not included in the Bible. Paul and some of the early Church Fathers happened to believe the tale.

I’m unable to follow how you’ve come to the conclusion that St. Paul & some of the Church Fathers believed in that tale.

Perhaps you’re not taking in St. Paul’s & the other Church Fathers Entire discourse why head covering for women is necessary - Natural Law & Divine Law, but instead are focused only on misinterpreting the Additional (not sole) argument for head covering St. Paul used “because of the angels” and taking that & somehow relating it to the non-inspired book of enoch rather than reading what they understood that to mean. Again I can’t follow the basis for making that Huge leap.

St. John Chrysostom wrote re: head covering women that even if they didn’t do it for their husbands/men that at least they ought to do it to “reverence the angels”. This dismisses any conclusion that the angels St. Paul spoke of were fallen angels as no Christian woman would be expected to reverence evil fallen angels.

 

[sojo]

My maternal side of the family wore peasant style head coverings in Russia Poland. When the family starting coming to the USA in the late 1800s, early 1900s, they pretty much dumped the custom upon debarkation at Ellis Island.

My Paternal side of the family also came from Russian Poland, but they were not from the Jewish ghetto, and that side of the family disowned my parents’ marriage more harshly than my maternal side, so I don’t really know much about them except they came from a line of cobblers. I assume the women also wore head coverings as it was typical in Europe in that area. From photographs, I don’t see any of my relatives from the Paternal (Catholic) side wearing head coverings except for Mass. And all were ditched in the 1960s when Vatican II came along.

Some very orthodox Jews still did head covering for women upon marriage, but not before. Oddly, when growing up it was the vogue to wear cheap wigs instead of hats or veils - I guess to assimilate better?

I feel so particular need to cover in Church - I find many of the women, as few as they are, who do so are overly concerned with vanity and are forever fussing with their veils and scarves. As for not being attractive to other men, I would look a lot better with my hair covered - it is NOT my crowning glory by any means. But fussing with a hat or scarf would be very distracting to me during Mass. Mantillas are very pretty, but they are not of my era or culture. We may have a bit of mixed blood in our family but not a drop of Spanish blood in any of us!

 

[Marie5890]

Never felt drawn to it…

 

[KathleenGee]

ComeHome2Rome, when discussing my draw to mantillas with my former pastor, Vatican II pretty much abrogated the 1917 canons, where women were to have their heads covered at Mass.

We remember the little round lace chapel caps we took to Mass to wear. No mantillas by young women. Except Jacqueline Kennedy looked so elegant in her white mantilla…there is the high fashion statement now coming through…

When it came to receiving communion in the hand, that was forced on the Vatican by the American bishops in the early 70’s. It was a confusing time and it only got more confusing.

But as I understand it, Vatican II does not enforce any headcovering for women. I do not know if any pastors are given directives to ensure modest dress at Mass. I know that St. Padre Pio had alot to reprimand on the manner of dress of some women, though.

 

[adrift]

Yes. 1 Cor. 11

Yes. We have the Church Fathers writings combined with the Icons as witnesses.

The first I can find this practice being stopped in daily life is around the time of the secular women’s lib. movement.

Although many try to tie it to the women’s lib movement it is more tied to changing fashions. Not only did women stop wearing hats but men did too. I will never forget my father bemoaning the fact that he had a hard time finding a hat. He died in 1975.
Just a guess on my part. With the advent of Cars, people are not outside as much to get burned. It also became fashionable to have sun tans.
The Wearing of Hats Fashion History of Hats