Attn. Christians of Various Traditions: Women & Head Covering ?

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ComeHome2Rome, when discussing my draw to mantillas with my former pastor, Vatican II pretty much abrogated the 1917 canons, where women were to have their heads covered at Mass.

We remember the little round lace chapel caps we took to Mass to wear. No mantillas by young women. Except Jacqueline Kennedy looked so elegant in her white mantilla…there is the high fashion statement now coming through…

When it came to receiving communion in the hand, that was forced on the Vatican by the American bishops in the early 70’s. It was a confusing time and it only got more confusing.

But as I understand it, Vatican II does not enforce any headcovering for women. I do not know if any pastors are given directives to ensure modest dress at Mass. I know that St. Padre Pio had alot to reprimand on the manner of dress of some women, though.
I remember one church I attended had a plaque that instructed on what was appropriate for women to wear. I would bet, that unfortunetly, it is no longer there.
I do not know why you would say that the Bishops forced communion in the hand on the Vatican when I would categorize it as an indult granted by the Vatican after the request of many different countries which was granted to the U.S. in 1977.
Communion-in-the-Hand
Canada was granted it before the U.S… It was something that I liked and was glad when my local parish began doing it.
 
.I am thinking now of the Eastern Orthodox and how the women dressed…daily, outside of church…I have impression European Christian women had their heads covered up to the Renaissance…(that had the spirit of the world)…
European Women covered their heads for a very practical reason… it kept their hair clean and their heads warm. As someone who participated in living history I can tell you a cap was a practical piece of every day clothing. So in a sense, a woman was covered in church and out.
 
The risk that our God-given brain may lead us astray doesn’t justify the conclusion that we should fear and distrust the idea of using it.
And in this case (Paul - Tertullian - John Chrysostom’s argument) there’s nothing to fear. Neither God’s word, nor the Church command people to be scared and to protect themselves of incubi who lust after women and use them to procreate giant children. This is a myth from The Book of Enoch, a tale that is not included in the Bible. Paul and some of the early Church Fathers happened to believe the tale. The Catholic Church and most Orthodox churches don’t believe it and don’t consider it as Scripture. It’s that simple.
Of course we shouldn’t fear or distrust using our God given brains, but we are also to trust and believe that the word of God was written down by men with divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. There was a reason these verses were included in scripture and I’m not sure that you are correct in your assumption that it is because of this tale. My own research on the subject has found many different explanations for the reference to angels. Personally, I have always understood it to mean that God’s angels are watching to see that you are doing as you should. But my interpretation is not the one that matters; it’s cannon law that does…

Here is the relevant canon from the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

Canon 1262

§1. It is desirable that, consistent with ancient discipline, women be separated from men in church.

§2. Men, in a church or outside a church, while they are assisting at sacred rites, shall be bare-headed, unless the approved mores of the people or peculiar circumstances of things determine otherwise; women, however, shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord.

However when the 1983 canon was written it said the following…

Canon 6

§1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated:

1° the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917;

And so that law was abrogated and since there was no mention of head coverings in the 1983 canon law, it seems that women obviously have the choice to cover or not cover and we get to sit with the opposite sex while worshipping in Mass too:-)
 
vsedriver, that was also what I was trying to find out.

How far back did women wear hats? I remember wearing one for Easter. My grandmother made me a coat similar to Jacqueline Kennedy’s. We were big fans of her style. So that was going back to early 60’s out here in Pacific NW.

Yes, it does seem to have happened in USA may be in mid to late 60’s. English women really enjoy wearing hats. I remember seeing movies of foreign countries of women still having their heads covered…to keep hair clean…

I was not ‘convicted’ for wearing a mantilla…it was more a sense of being covered, and a sense of spiritual richness experienced at Mass…this one the Latin Mass.

I hope the restoration of the Liturgy, what Pope Benedict, believed what was needed in accordance of the true spirit of Vatican II is not let go. Well, for now in my modern parish, I will work out remembering to bring my black prayer shawl to wear. People just look at it and see it as it is.
 
🙂

To what do you attribute to the change from the earlier practice of full-time head covering in ROCOR? Was it political? Communism? Or something else?
I really have no idea, sorry. ROCOR never existed in Russia it’self however. One may account it to the modern world FWIW.

When I commented on women’s liberation I was just taking into account the very conservative nature of ROCOR members, they would not I would think bow to modern political movements.
 
I have never had any conviction about head covering and have never practiced it.

I am currently Episcopalian and Lutheran (ELCA) (dual affiliation), and have previously been Baptist and trinitarian Pentecostal. I was never taught anything about it in any of those.
In the past women nearly always wore hats or scarves in Episcopal churches, that changed in the 60s.
 
Yes. 1 Cor. 11

Yes. We have the Church Fathers writings combined with the Icons as witnesses.

The first I can find this practice being stopped in daily life is around the time of the secular women’s lib. movement. 😦
Oh I don’t know here are a few pictures of women in their everyday lives un-veiled long before the dreaded women’s lib movement.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ohscogs/shelbymuseum/ShelbyElectricCoEmp1900.jpg

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

http://www.ohs.org/education/oregon...r City Telephone Operators c1910 FSDM2_md.jpg
 
Actually those photos look like they were taken right at the time of women’s lib. 😃
 
You are confusing your history, these pictures would be from the time of women’s suffrage.
You’re right, I probably am since the one developed into the other. In the photos you posted are of women are working outside of the home, it was the beginning of what we have now where we typically fall below the poverty line unless there are at least 2 incomes in a single family, abortions, etc. - as a woman, I’m not a fan 🙂
 
The reality is, women must be covered at the Vatican… the fact that women must wear headcoverings at the Vatican says something to me privately…and publicly it cannot be disputed how they practice there.
This has not been the case on any of my several visits to St. Peter’s Basilica or other parts of Vatican City. Indeed, my experiences suggest that very few women choose to wear head coverings there, for Mass or otherwise. And there is no shortage of photos from Masses depicting women with uncovered heads:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
🙂
 
You’re right, I probably am since the one developed into the other. In the photos you posted are of women are working outside of the home,** it was the beginning **of what we have now where we typically fall below the poverty line unless there are at least 2 incomes in a single family, abortions, etc. - as a woman, I’m not a fan 🙂
and the beginning started off really badly? Their husband should have dragged them home I guess.🤷 And during WWII I guess all the Rosie’s should have stopped riviting and gone home as well.

Did you know that work the women were doing, (as in the photos) were paid less than a man for the same job? I guess that’s fair.

Did you know that secretaries do not have to get their male (or female) bosses a cup of coffee, nor do they have to make it every morning?

My boss teases me and says, “is the coffee made?” I answer, “it will be as soon as you make it.,” 😃
 
I was at the Vatican in 1973. I was not wearing a hat or veil.

I think I am mixing it up with those women who meet the pope. Yet Adrift has shown that it is not so much about the head being covered, but the shoulders…and yet…women will wear the veil. I was reading 2nd hand talk…people’s experiences.

I am getting old.

If I could find it, I would post a picture of me wearing a hat when I was 14 at Easter time, around 1962. We all wore hats at that time to Easter Sunday Mass. Vatican II came, and no more head coverings.

I will edit and add Devorah’s head coverings.
 
OK…for all you women that want to go traditional, go to www.Headcoverings-by-Devorah.com

‘Where Modesty Does Not Mean Frumpy!’

She and I worked together to design my head wrap and I have it in the glove compartment of my little car. I have the mantilla in a nice box in the back seat. I have to start using them. I can use the headwrap at this sanctuary place, and I can get away in my modern, contemporary parish with my prayer shawl. They make prayer shawls there, but not for Mass. They will think I am a little bit on the artsy side.

If I wore a mantilla…it would be something political, which is not right, but that is where it is in some places.
 
I was at the Vatican in 1973. I was not wearing a hat or veil.

I think I am mixing it up with those women who meet the pope. Yet Adrift has shown that it is not so much about the head being covered, but the shoulders…and yet…women will wear the veil. I was reading 2nd hand talk…people’s experiences.

I am getting old.

If I could find it, I would post a picture of me wearing a hat when I was 14 at Easter time, around 1962. We all wore hats at that time to Easter Sunday Mass. Vatican II came, and no more head coverings.

I will edit and add Devorah’s head coverings.
I’m going ask my mum whether she wore a veil in 1962 in Easter. She turned 14 in June.😃

This was back in Sri Lanka. However, till date several women there do wear the veil:)

MJ

Update: No she didn’t. She said there was instruction from the Priest that he noticed several women were wearing very elaborate and stylish veils. And that if they continued it would be better not to wear it.:hmmm:

But no one was forced or imposed to wear.
 
You’re right, I probably am since the one developed into the other. In the photos you posted are of women are working outside of the home, it was the beginning of what we have now where we typically fall below the poverty line unless there are at least 2 incomes in a single family, abortions, etc. - as a woman, I’m not a fan 🙂
Women had been working inside and outside the home in order to contribute the family income long before those pictures were taken. If you want to blame something for women working outside the home you should start with the shift away from an agrarian society to commerce based one. A brief look at labor history shows just how little men were paid and how little their lives were worth at the dawn of the industrial age. And when the women couldn’t work children were sent off to factories to help contribute to family income. History much?
 
I’m unable to follow how you’ve come to the conclusion that St. Paul & some of the Church Fathers believed in that tale.

Perhaps you’re not taking in St. Paul’s & the other Church Fathers Entire discourse why head covering for women is necessary - Natural Law & Divine Law, but instead are focused only on misinterpreting the Additional (not sole) argument for head covering St. Paul used “because of the angels” and taking that & somehow relating it to the non-inspired book of enoch rather than reading what they understood that to mean. Again I can’t follow the basis for making that Huge leap.

St. John Chrysostom wrote re: head covering women that even if they didn’t do it for their husbands/men that at least they ought to do it to “reverence the angels”. This dismisses any conclusion that the angels St. Paul spoke of were fallen angels as no Christian woman would be expected to reverence evil fallen angels.
I focused on “because of the angels” because you used the quote in your original post and because you noticed that these early Church Fathers used it as an argument for veiling women all the time, not not just while at church or during prayer.

Re John Chrysostom: of course I don’t say that his angels are fallen angels, only that this kind of thinking did evolve (see post #18). The talks about a link with the ancient Oriental tales about incubi and the Jewish Book of Enoch are not new at all (see here or here or here): so first we have fallen angels that shouldn’t be tempted, then we have heavenly angels that shouldn’t be tempted, then we have simply heavenly angels that are to be revered.
If the whole argument about angels were clearly about asexual, immaterial creatures immune to temptation, God’s emissaries who are present when people gather together in churches to pray, then 1) it would have been strange to ask only women to cover their heads “because of the angels” (being as human as women, men have to revere angels too) and 2) the interpretation of Tertullian about bareheaded women being guilty of tempting angels would have been impossible.

But let’s assume that the argument involving angels had to do strictly with reverence. Why do I still say that this is dishonest?
Paul asked women to cover their heads only when praying and prophesizing, while Tertullian and John Chrysostom went further and inferred that women should cover their heads all the time. This extrapolation invalidates the whole argument about the necessity of revering angels while praying and betrays instead the Fathers’ idea that a woman’s body is a walking temptation to men and that it should be constantly covered from head to toe. “It has also been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered; for it is a wicked thing for beauty to be a snare to men”, says Clement of Alexandria.

Furthermore: “For that you ought to be covered nature herself by anticipation enacted a law. Add now, I pray, your own part also, that you may not seem to subvert the very laws of nature; a proof of most insolent rashness, to buffet not only with us, but with nature also”, says John Chrysostom. But the long hair of women is not a natural given (men can have long hair too), but a cultural standard, an adornment of their heads that enhances beauty; that’s why it’s not considered modest enough for these Fathers, who demand an artificial head covering precisely because they saw women’s hair and face as a source of constant temptation. For whom? Well, not for celestial angels. “Arabia’s heathen females will be your judges, who cover not only the head, but the face also, so entirely, that they are content, with one eye free, to enjoy rather half the light than to prostitute the entire face”, says Tertullian.

So this was the point: women should make themselves invisible because men want to protect themselves from their own lust, not because God or angels demand it as an act of reverence. If a woman refuses to be invisible, she is to blame for all the evil in the world. John Calvin expressed this thinking in all its illogical glory: “So if women are thus permitted to have their heads uncovered and to show their hair, they will eventually be allowed to expose their entire breasts, and they will come to make their exhibitions as if it were a tavern show; they will become so brazen that modesty and shame will be no more; in short they will forget the duty of nature….So, when it is permissible for the women to uncover their heads, one will say, ‘Well, what harm in uncovering the stomach also?’ And then after that one will plead [for] something else: ‘Now if the women go bareheaded, why not also [bare] this and [bare] that?’ Then the men, for their part, will break loose too. In short, there will be no decency left, unless people contain themselves and respect what is proper and fitting, so as not to go headlong overboard.”
 
Women had been working inside and outside the home in order to contribute the family income long before those pictures were taken. If you want to blame something for women working outside the home you should start with the shift away from an agrarian society to commerce based one. A brief look at labor history shows just how little men were paid and how little their lives were worth at the dawn of the industrial age. And when the women couldn’t work children were sent off to factories to help contribute to family income. History much?
Christopher Lasch’s essays “Bourgeois Domesticity, the Revolt Against Patriarchy, and the Attack on Fashion” and “The Sexual Division of Labor, the Decline of Civic Culture, and the Rise of the Suburbs” are interesting explorations.
 
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