Authentically black and truly Catholic

[rlg94086]

No. Its well known that they all get lumped together regardless of their station in life. A classless society is forced upon them. Danny Glover, a millionaire, could not catch a cab, an incident which I will not discuss.

Really? So when some people referred to Colin Powell and Condi Rice as “house slaves,” they weren’t separating them out as a different class?

I have a hard time believing that all black people consider themselves a single class with no subclasses. Is Danny Glover, millionaire, in the same class as a crack addict in a ghetto? I doubt that the crack addict or Danny Glover believe that.

You are only fooling yourself with such nonsense. Every human group creates subclasses within their group - “authentically black” is one such way of classifying people. It is elitism, pure and simple.

 

[rlg94086]

There are also lots of Christian churches who celebrate Seder suppers, and have Koran study groups. It doesn’t make these things to be Christian, or acceptable for Catholic churches.

Exactly. Some Christians don’t feel that Christ’s universal message is sufficient. Christmas isn’t enough, so they had to create a cultural celebration to seperate their group from the rest of society. It’s sad.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

Really? So when some people referred to Colin Powell and Condi Rice as “house slaves,” they weren’t separating them out as a different class?

Nope. You should note that any fool can run his or her mouth.

I have a hard time believing that all black people consider themselves a single class with no subclasses.

Remember me stating it is thrust upon them? They don’t have to consider it one way or the other.

Is Danny Glover, millionaire, in the same class as a crack addict in a ghetto? I doubt that the crack addict or Danny Glover believe that.

If you asked Mr. Glover you may be in for a big surprise.

In this democracy do you consider yourself of a different ‘class’ than others? How elitist!

It is elitism, pure and simple.

‘Strive mightily for what you believe is correct, but at least consider you may be wrong.’

Exactly. Some Christians don’t feel that Christ’s universal message is sufficient. Christmas isn’t enough, so they had to create a cultural celebration to seperate their group from the rest of society. It’s sad.

Its sad that folks consider European cultural norms to be normal and ‘traditional Catholicism’.

You think a cultural celebration separates groups? You should come to a more diverse area like Chicago – every week there’s a cultural festival; in churches and outside. And not just folks in a particular culture attend, either.

 

[Spencerian]

Thanks Spencerian, but I don’t think any of the “authentically black” posters are going to accept your points. You obviously need to be re-educated and start celebrating fabricated cultural celebrations, so you can authenticate yourself. Otherwise, you aren’t part of the group.

Yes, sir. I’ll start wearing my pants down to my knees, speak “ebonics” and wearing enough jewelry to anchor an elephant as soon as possible.

 

[Spencerian]

Impossible. Black folks in the US live in a classless society.

Beau,

I’m personally unsure if you’re being sarcastic or not here.

My personal experience is that some of the most racist people in America are blacks to other blacks, sadly.

Others have called your statement out already for its source, so I won’t belabor it further.

 

[Spencerian]

Actually, its not a religion at all. Its just a cultural celebration.

And this is where the elitism kicks in. Blacks search for an identity that, due to many factors, can’t be easily found in a form that suits some of us. And we aren’t happy with an identity, we create them.

Most blacks have no idea from what part of Africa they came from (*if *they came from Africa). Kwanzaa is both a culturally and religiously syncretic celebration that gives “warm and fuzzy” accolades to having some obviously clear Black roots (in terms of appearance, without necessarily verified documents) while creating a celebration that takes away from the glory of God.

Kwanzaa didn’t make a wit’s worth of sense when I first saw it as a kid, without any religiosity, and it certainly makes no sense to me today as a properly catechized Catholic American Black.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

And this is where the elitism kicks in. Blacks search for an identity that, due to many factors, can’t be easily found in a form that suits some of us. And we aren’t happy with an identity, we create them.

Well, you don’t remember the report on the riots in 1968 which said we were rapidly moving toward two societies? No wonder black folks started their own cultural celebrations.

Most blacks have no idea from what part of Africa they came from (*if *they came from Africa).

You don’t remember the landmark TV special in 1968, “Black History: Lost Stolen or Strayed”? I watched it. Most folks over 40 have a real hard time naming a black person they learned about in American History.

Kwanzaa is both a culturally and religiously syncretic celebration… while creating a celebration that takes away from the glory of God.

It does not take away from anything. Majority folks seem to have a real problem with Kwanza. I’m amazed the subject comes up so often.

Kwanzaa didn’t make a wit’s worth of sense when I first saw it as a kid, without any religiosity, and it certainly makes no sense to me today as a properly catechized Catholic American Black.

Well, folks differ. Everyone has to find their own authenticity.

Beau,

I’m personally unsure if you’re being sarcastic or not here.

Not. If you read the speeches of Malcolm X, there is a famous incident in which he was debating an Ivy League professor and Malcolm asked: ‘What do they call a black man with a Ph.D.?’ Malcolm famously asked, forty years ago. He answered, “A [n-word]!”

globalpolitician.com/23659-racegrading

Now, you have to remember that Malcolm died in 1964, so this truism about blacks living in a classless society has been around for a long time. Basically, the concept is that all black folks are treated alike, no matter what station they have earned in live. So black society in the US is essentially classless. And Danny Glover, who was a college radical in the sixties has undoubtedly heard this truism.

Do you know what protesters in Sweden called Nixon’s newly-named ambassador, Brud Holland in 1969? I do.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Most folks over 40 have a real hard time naming a black person they learned about in American History.

You must not be over 40, then, or you would know better. I’m over 40 and I can certainly name some. Probably could once have named more, but, you see, with age and the passage of many years, one doesn’t remember things as well; not the white people or the black people or the native Americans either. (Was Quanah Parker chief of the Pinatecas or the Quahadis? Was John Pelham killed before Gettysburg or after? I knew once, but I don’t know now.) But for those factors of human memory, I’ll bet almost everybody over 40 could name black people they learned about in American History.

 

[MarianD]

Look for the union label.

Wow. I’m happy there isn’t this ignorance in my Church, or else I would never have wanted to become Catholic.

Ignorance has no place in God’s Church.

 

[Sonic]

Wow. I’m happy there isn’t this ignorance in my Church, or else I would never have wanted to become Catholic.

Ignorance has no place in God’s Church.

OMG! I was just kidding. It wasn’t meant to be derogatory. I was really trying to make fun of racism.

Oy Vay! Lighten up!

 

[Adeodatus]

And this is where the elitism kicks in. Blacks search for an identity that, due to many factors, can’t be easily found in a form that suits some of us. And we aren’t happy with an identity, we create them.

Most blacks have no idea from what part of Africa they came from (*if *they came from Africa). Kwanzaa is both a culturally and religiously syncretic celebration that gives “warm and fuzzy” accolades to having some obviously clear Black roots (in terms of appearance, without necessarily verified documents) while creating a celebration that takes away from the glory of God.

Kwanzaa didn’t make a wit’s worth of sense when I first saw it as a kid, without any religiosity, and it certainly makes no sense to me today as a properly catechized Catholic American Black.

Good for you, mate. There’s been mention so far in this thread of W.E.B. DuBois (a Communist), Kwanzaa (phony Christmas), Obama inauguration parties (ahem no comment), etc. Black people shouldn’t have to settle for all that baloney!

You’ve got the right idea. The Church. Bishop Fulton Sheen. St. Joan. The good stuff. Skin color doesn’t matter. Whether a man is upright or wicked is all that matters.

When I taught Intro Philosophy, I ended the course with Letter from Birmingham Jail. I specifically used it as an antidote to the post-modern sophistry of Rorty. I never introduced it like “And now, time for Blackness!” I didn’t cast its moral realism against the moral relativism of Rorty as “Black dude taking down The Man!” It’s just a good piece of philosophy. It explicitly goes back, in fact, to the Catholic moral tradition as when Dr. King cites St. Augustine and St. Thomas. The occasion of the Letter concerns issues of racial equality but the moral philosophy it champions goes beyond those particulars. None of its validity hinges on what color anybody is.

If tomorrow we found out that Socrates was a black dude would it change philosophy even one iota? If tomorrow Al Sharpton woke up as a white dude would he be any less irritating? The truth doesn’t have a color.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

The occasion of the Letter concerns issues of racial equality but the moral philosophy it champions goes beyond those particulars. None of its validity hinges on what color anybody is.

And Catholic clergy were among those included (read “called out”) as addressees of the letter.

Like many folks, I know that pasta originated in China and tomatoes came from Brazil. I’ve not found occasion to harp on this with Italian folks. Similarly, many people know that St. Patrick was not even from Ireland or Irish. This is not mentioned often.

So why, after some 40 years, must we at least twice a year be treated to a thread where someone sees fit to wipe his or her feet on Kwanza? It perplexes and disappoints me.

 

[rlg94086]

Its sad that folks consider European cultural norms to be normal and ‘traditional Catholicism’.

You think a cultural celebration separates groups? You should come to a more diverse area like Chicago – every week there’s a cultural festival; in churches and outside. And not just folks in a particular culture attend, either.

Hmm…the Roman Catholic Church is European in origin, so it would take complete ignorance to think that European cultural norms aren’t “normal and ‘traditional Catholicism’” for members of the Roman Catholic Church. There are variations of these traditions throughout the world, but they are organic changes within cultures integrated with the “normal” traditions. There are also other traditions within the Eastern Rite Churches.

I’ve participated in many cultural variations of Christmas celebrations, but Kwanzaa is not one of them. It has no relation to Christmas. In fact, it would make more sense for African American Catholics to research the Christmas practices of the Ethiopian Church (Eastern Rite) or find out how Western African Catholics celebrate than to adopt Kwanzaa as their celebration. The other option, of course, is to bring forward Christmas traditions from earlier African American generations, but they are mostly just variations of European Protestant culture.

I just don’t see how a manufactured, black nationalist inspired holiday is something Catholics should be celebrating. How is it even remotely related to the universal Christmas celebration of Christmas in the Catholic Church?

 

[rlg94086]

And Catholic clergy were among those included (read “called out”) as addressees of the letter.

Like many folks, I know that pasta originated in China and tomatoes came from Brazil. I’ve not found occasion to harp on this with Italian folks. Similarly, many people know that St. Patrick was not even from Ireland or Irish. This is not mentioned often.

So why, after some 40 years, must we at least twice a year be treated to a thread where someone sees fit to wipe his or her feet on Kwanza? It perplexes and disappoints me.

Because Kwanzaa has nothing to do with Christianity. It doesn’t even have any rich, historical origin. Your glorification of a manufactured, black nationalist holiday perplexes and disappoints me.

 

[rlg94086]

You must not be over 40, then, or you would know better. I’m over 40 and I can certainly name some. Probably could once have named more, but, you see, with age and the passage of many years, one doesn’t remember things as well; not the white people or the black people or the native Americans either. (Was Quanah Parker chief of the Pinatecas or the Quahadis? Was John Pelham killed before Gettysburg or after? I knew once, but I don’t know now.) But for those factors of human memory, I’ll bet almost everybody over 40 could name black people they learned about in American History.

In fairness, I’m sure Beau was just having some math issues. I was born in 1965 (soon to be 45), so elementary school started in 1970…after much of the African American awareness was under way. Of course my classmates and I learned about heroic black Americans!

I can’t speak for what Beau’s generation learned in school. From my understanding, people like President Wilson had a hand in stripping much of black history from the books before Beau’s generation was born.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

Hmm…the Roman Catholic Church is European in origin … .

I don’t think Jesus ever visited Europe.

In fact, it would make more sense for African American Catholics to research the Christmas practices …

How paternalistic! I think you will have to let them make decisions for themselves.

I just don’t see how a manufactured, black nationalist inspired holiday is something Catholics should be celebrating.

Try being black.

How is it even remotely related to the universal Christmas celebration of Christmas in the Catholic Church?

No one I know said it was.

Because Kwanzaa has nothing to do with Christianity.

No one said it did.

It doesn’t even have any rich, historical origin.

It has 40 years of a rich tradition.

Your glorification of a manufactured, black nationalist holiday perplexes and disappoints me.

With respect, that is none of your business. You are* not* the arbiter of what should be the cultural celebrations of different cultures. Your statement is highly paternalistic.

 

[vincekerr2]

I agree

burning calories

 

[rlg94086]

I don’t think Jesus ever visited Europe.

I never claimed He did. Apparently, neither reading nor Church history are your strong suits.

 

[rlg94086]

It has 40 years of a rich tradition.

I’ll let this comment speak for itself.

 

[MarianD]

No matter how much debate goes on in this thread, this one simple fact remains:

In Christ, there is no white. There is no black. There is no red, nor yellow, nor brown, nor purple for that matter. There is only God. There is only Holiness. We all should strive to this, no matter what our race, color, gender, or background. This is what the Holy Spirit calls us to do. Mary takes all men and women as her children, the Eternal Father shows His Mercy upon all of His children, regardless of their race. Christ accepts all of us as His brothers and sisters (an honor none of us are worthy to receive). The Holy Spirit inspires, guides, and dwells in all of us, regardless of where their ancestors are from. This Holy Family of Father, Brother, and Mother along with the Driving Force behind it all doesn’t even remotely care about the color of someone’s skin. Anyone who thinks differently is not in agreement with neither our God, His Church, nor her (sensible) members.

I’ve been Catholic for a little over a month and I realize this. I’m still a noob in the faith for crying out loud…green as grass. Come on guys. I’m black, and the lady standing next to me is white in Church. And yet we all pray the same thing, pray to the same God, implore the same Mother for help, and are accepted into the same Church. We both give each other the sign of peace, and neither of us care that the other is a different race, gender, or class, but rather that the other is here with us now, worshiping He Who is Worthy.