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Apollos
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Sonic
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I know I am!
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Sonic
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Amen! I agree with you!
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Beau_Ouiville
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No, Jesuits did not accept black applicants pre-Vatican II. I don’t find it humorous, though.
Am I the only one here who notices that no one addressed the basic question of why folks seem to take it on themselves so often to criticize others’ cultural celebrations?
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jmcrae
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Seriously? I didn’t realize that. Way to shoot themselves in the foot - their mandate was to evangelize places that don’t really have a lot of white people in them. One wonders what they were thinking.
It’s not about criticizing a cultural celebration - it’s about whether or not the celebrations of a different religion (a made-up religion, at that) belong in Catholic churches.
Colour doesn’t enter into it. They don’t celebrate Robbie Burns Day at Mass, either, that I know of.
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Beau_Ouiville
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If you let in Mardi Gras and Hallowe’en parties, which have long been separated from any religious basis, I don’t see the problem with Kwanza; which is not a different religion. And the Kwanza criticism has not just been that it takes part in a parish basement hall, or some such.
Cinco de Mayo is not Mexican independence day and is celebrated in the US more than in Mexico. Although the public schools in Chicago are closed on Pulaski Day, Poles actually celebrate their heritage on Polish Constitution Day. I don’t see criticism of those celebrations here.
Since when? A famous NY judge was denied admission to Notre Dame because it did not admit black students. He died recently. Georgetown University was partially built by slaves, the Maryland Catholic clergy owning slave during the Civil War although such ownership was frowned on (and caused a schism of) the Methodists. A Methodist bishop was harshly criticized for being a slave owner.
There happens to be a lot more, too. Many people are unaware of such facts. Most, like me, do not dwell on them.
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rlg94086
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None of those events were fabricated “cultural celebrations” created by someone who had problems with black people celebrating “white” events, like Christmas. I feel equally inclined to ridicule black nationalist “cultural celebrations,” as I am to ridicule the fabricated religious rituals of modern Druids. Both are made up, and both are harmful to the universal message of the Catholic Church. Aging black power adherents are free to celebrate Kwanzaa, but they shouldn’t try to insert such celebrations into the Church.
MarianD has it right. We are one people…not black Catholics and white Catholics.
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Beau_Ouiville
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Since when? If that were true then folks here would not be harping on Kwanza or stating that Roman Catholicism is a European religion.
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TMC
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How is Kwanzw really different than other holiday celebrations? Although many white Americans have some idea where in Europe their families came from, many (maybe most) do not. And most of the ‘traditional’ Christmas symbols and traditions are not particularly Christian–Christmas trees and so forth. So some people celebrate with traditions (some old, some newer) that are vaguely European in origin and not really Christian. Some also celebrate with mostly newer traditions that are vaguely African origin and not really Christian. What’s the difference?
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Spencerian
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Beau,
I’m going to try to redirect things to a simple question based on your posts.
Are you saying that being black and celebrating the black way of life is more important than the Church—specifically, to God?
Blacks, unlike Poles, Jews, Mexicans and the like, aren’t from one country or region. Blacks are, by the faults of chattel slavery practices, from everywhere and have been anonymized culturally from our direct roots. It doesn’t mean we haven’t a culture, but it’s really an *American *culture we should inherit and celebrate while acknowledging our generic African roots.
It seems you are defending the wrong organizations. The Church has some warts, yes. But your arguments are throwing the baby Jesus out of the holy bathwater all because a Judas or two spat in it.
I’m generally proud of my black heritage, too. And I have been around long enough to see much of what you describe. In fact, June 19, 1964, my birthday, is when the Civil Rights Act was passed and ready to sign by President Johnson. I’m as much of a child of the new age as anyone, I figure.
Despite our trials in the black community, there is NO organization or culture or race or government or authority or person on this Earth more important than God. If your arguments don’t support that in whole or in part, I question what answers and replies you are giving. We can’t have a cafeteria or black liberation attitude about our faith. Nor can any culture or race, especially not black Americans, continue to see themselves as victims of ages past (legitimately or no) if we are all to experience the future, under God and in truth.
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jmcrae
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Mardi Gras is a celebration of Shrove Tuesday, which is a Christian observance.
Probably because we don’t see them being celebrated in Church. We aren’t talking about street parties, here, but about what goes on in Church.
Feel free to celebrate Kwanza in the streets or at your home - just not in Church.
None of these things have anything to do with what holidays we celebrate in Church. I was just pointing out that there are “white holidays” that we also don’t celebrate in Church - the reason has nothing to do with skin colour, but rather, with the appropriateness of the celebration in relation to what Church is supposed to be about.
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rlg94086
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Well, I didn’t say it is a “European religion.” I said that the Roman Catholic Church’s origins are in Europe…specifically Rome…Italy. I also mentioned Eastern Rite Churches which are also part of the Catholic Church. For example, the Ethiopian Church has its origins in Africa…probably Ethiopia.
You have made it clear by your “since when” comment that you believe in a black Catholic Church and a white Catholic Church. How sad.
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Beau_Ouiville
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… and I’m not going to take part in a hijack of this thread.
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Beau_Ouiville
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No, Catholicism started with Jesus and not in Europe.
Wrong! I know the history of blacks and US Catholicism. Many don’t.
OK. I guess you refer to Catholic churches since I’ve been to the celebrations in churches of other denominations, too.
Tell others in this forum to lay off Kwanza.
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rlg94086
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Again with the reading issues? Of course Catholicism started with Jesus! But, the Roman Catholic Church was founded in Rome by Sts Peter and Paul. The *Roman/Latin *rites have Western European traditions intermingled with them. This is not the case with the Eastern Rites, which have…wait for it…Eastern traditions intermingled with them.
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Beau_Ouiville
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(I’ll ignore the repeated insult) OK, then just like there is no black or white Church … then Catholicism is not a European religion; particularly since it did not start in Europe. Just like its name, it is universal.
I can remember the Marine Corps during the Vietnam war. They stated that there were no ‘white Marines’ and surely none of those ‘black power Marines’; they had only ‘green Marines’. But, the juke boxes at their bases had only country-western music, what any Marine should appreciate, I guess. The Corps really was dumbfounded why some folks would complain.
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rlg94086
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Okay…so you just can’t let go of the past. I get it. You remind me of my grandparents. I prefer to live in the present and look to the future than to continually dwell on the divisions of the past. I will pray that you get over your racial bitterness.
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TMC
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C’mon Beau, you know that in America when people say they are color-blind they mean they can only see white, and that racial harmony means accepting white traditions and abandoning any non-white, non-Euro culture. That’s why not limiting your holiday celebration to dragging a dead tree inside, eating ham and giving kids candy canes means you are not real Christian. After all, everyone knows that Jesus loved evergreen trees, pork and processed sugar.
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