Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

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Hi James,

A couple of ligonier articles here on it all… Not rigorous defences of my position, but simple explanations of what it is:
ligonier.org/learn/qas/what-do-our-good-deeds-have-do-our-salvation/
ligonier.org/blog/faith-and-works/

Lincs.
Lincs,

Good articles. I read them. They describe the Protestant position in a simple way. Keeping things simple is good here. Somtimes I get too carried away with too many details.

My premise was that the differences are largely semantics (in my opinion). Protestants & Catholics over the last 500 years have a greater shared understanding of justification. We have a greater consensus in the basic truths.

I’m offering an olive branch of partial unity.

Can you and I agree upon the following sentence?

***Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works. ***

Brother in Chirst,

James
 
Scripture doesn’t contradict itself. If man was justified by faith alone, then Romans would contradict James. Not likely. The object is to see both in the correct understanding.

Justified by Faith Alone could very easily result in False Faith which is dead faith. The magic wand and fairy dust dosen’t hit you and THEN you remain idle. Very much on the contrary as we see with St Paul. He encounters a vision in the “3rd heaven” and then while we can say Paul was at that moment Justified by Faith which he did not have prior to this moment. The Grace/Faith produced the Works and thus through the continued sancifying Grace of the Lord. Paul in that moment realized how wrong, at fault, and how far he was in his finite self from the infinite Lord. He was a “murderer” Thus the works which resulted as mentioned in 2-Cor 11 becomes not just relevant to Pauls salvation but imperative.

Linc is putting in what he truly doesn’t believe to be…“Good Works” here on CAF.

2-Corinthians 11 and we see St Pauls sufferings from his “works”. His penance is well documented. He suffered and knew what is was to suffer, just as Christ on the Cross. And he was sanctified by Grace is his suffering, and as he continued to suffer and follow the path he felt so obligated to do, for the Love of Christ and His Church. Paul could have started his own church, and why didn’t he if his belief was not the same as Christs already established Church?

James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins by using the example of someone who says he has faith yet no works.

“What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” James 2:14.

Justification by Faith alone is this context is not Faith, it is self deception.

In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal declaration, a confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt for it is not moving to Christ, it stands still. It is empty of life and action. It does not inspire one to evolve in Gods Kingdom in whatever way the Lords has chosen for them.

James begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn’t any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

Works thus itself must also be understood in context.

James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses that Paul makes mention of throughout his letters Romans, Gal, Phil, etc.justification is by faith alone.

So the question then becomes this. If St Paul encounters this vision of the Lord. Then he decides, well thats its for Christian persecution, now that I know the truth I can just go home, plant a garden, fish and read the rest of my life. Im good! Justified by Faith alone:shrug:.

Had Paul done this, ignored the Church established on earth and its “oral tradition” what would have became of Paul without his works? How would his faith persevered? Yet if Paul is predestined as Calvin states, Justified by Faith Alone, then is exactly what he could have done and rightly entered Heaven by Gods predestined will. Paul was “chosen” by God, and “sent” by God to do HIS earthly…WORKS!:eek:

Of course we can say we are justified by faith alone and its Biblical, but one must “understand” the entire Biblical Context. And who but the Most Holy Catholic Church has been relaying this for 2000 years? 🤷

Council of Trent and its Canons correctly elaborate on this. For example

Canon 15.
If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined,[119] let him be anathema.

Canon 14.
If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified,[118] or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.

Canon 17.
If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.

Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema

Canon 7.
If anyone says that all works done before justification, in whatever manner they may be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins, let him be anathema.

There is “no” such thing Biblically except by “misunderstanding”. Or as I have been saying…

Canon 6.
If anyone says that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil as well as those that are good God produces, not permissively only but also propria et per se, so that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of St. Paul, let him be anathema.

Thoughts on James from the “CARM” websight.
 
Hi James,
Good articles. I read them. They describe the Protestant position in a simple way. Keeping things simple is good here. Somtimes I get too carried away with too many details.
My premise was that the differences are largely semantics (in my opinion). Protestants & Catholics over the last 500 years have a greater shared understanding of justification. We have a greater consensus in the basic truths.
I’m offering an olive branch of partial unity.
Can you and I agree upon the following sentence?
Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
Brother in Chirst,
From the JDDJ, I don’t subscribe to it, I think it leaves far to much ambiguity on things to have resolved the issues that at present exist. Salvation is by Grace alone indeed. But what does the JDDJ mean by Grace? “in faith” What does it understand by this? Imputation, infusion? I understand the aim of the document is to foster renewed attempts at unification, but I think it doesn’t really provide a clear position.

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
I don’t see where the article does anything but place “spin” on Trent to confirm a belief. Without Trent he would have nothing to incorrectly defend.

Canon 1 concludes Baptism is wrong. John Calvin wasn’t there with Christ, His Apostles were.

Canon 2 “Unless men be born of water and of the Spirit.” then Calvin concludes the council is too Liberal. Course Calvin isn’t:rolleyes:

Canon 3 Shows that the whole doctrine of Baptism, as taught by Rome, is partly mutilated, but this according to Calvin in “Sola Scriptura”.

Canon 4 Let it suffice us then to have been baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, whatever may have been the ignorance or impiety of those who administered Baptism to us. Man is merely the hand; it is Christ alone who truly and properly baptizes. The world according to John Calvin

Canon 6 Calvin reluctantly agrees

Canon 7 Merit is misunderstood as defined by the Church.(CCC Merit)

Canon 8 Baptism according to Calivin again, and James- Bible. Its Canon and its not wrong Content/Context.

Canon 9 Calvin proclaims he is right Rome is wrong. Baptism again.

Canon 10 is a complete break from Orthodoxy.

Those who hold that sins are effaced by the mere remembrance of Baptism, do not mean a bare or frigid remembrance, but are conjoined with faith and repentance. Such also is the primary view of Baptism. For we ought to turn our thoughts not only to the sprinkling of water, but to the spiritual reality which begets the confidence of a good conscience by the resurrection of Christ, as Peter speaks. (1 Peter 3:21.)

(Turn your thought to Baptism and your sins are forgiven):confused:

Such remembrance, I say, not only makes sins venial, but altogether obliterates them. :confused:

Whenever the question relates to the forgiveness of sins, we must flee to Baptism, and from it seek a confirmation of forgiveness For as God reconciles us to himself by the daily promises of the gospel.:confused:

so the belief and certainty of this reconciliation, which is daily repeated even to the end of life, he seals to us by Baptism.

We were indeed baptized once, but there is a perpetual testimony of pardon and free propitiation in Christ. :confused:

What do the venerable Fathers say?

Out of the trite rhapsodies or the sophists they restrict the promises of Baptism to the past, and the moment any one has sinned, burying all remembrance of Baptism, they enjoin him to rest in the fictitious Sacrament. of Penance — as if Baptism were not itself a proper Sacrament of Penance. And still they will boast that they hold sound doctrine on the subject of Baptism, although they comprehend all its force in a momentary and evanescent promise of grace.

(The Sacraments in 2000 years…still there.)

But what of St Pauls life? Was it not the perpetual Penance? 2-Cor-11 Linc

John Calvin I believe took way to much liberty to dictate what he did not know. Instead of of all these contrary links to Teaching why not actually read the CCC. 😉
 
So then what are we to conclude here, Primacy you gave up on, so we win by default. 😉

Baptism we haven’t discussed this condundrum Calvin conceived then believed. 🤷😃

Where are we at with Faith Alone, no such thing right? We can conclude this is a “misunderstanding”? And I do believe one which should be corrected as we see by the New Evangelical churchs. :confused:

I fail to see where Trent is wrong. I’m open to listen though. Merit I could post all the CCC verse if you would like I see, thats a perpetual misunderstanding here also.

Peace
 
Hi Gary,
I don’t see where the article does anything but place “spin” on Trent to confirm a belief. Without Trent he would have nothing to incorrectly defend.
A spin? He gives the canon then provides an analysis of it. So I respectfully disagree with you here Gary.
But what of St Pauls life? Was it not the perpetual Penance? 2-Cor-11 Linc
It was a life of continually putting on the new nature, and dying to the old. A life of repentance. Justification by faith alone doesn’t begin to exclude suffering from the believers life.
John Calvin I believe took way to much liberty to dictate what he did not know. Instead of of all these contrary links to Teaching why not actually read the CCC.
I think he knew very much what he was on about. He simply unfolds scripture for his reader.

I fear that our justification discussions may have gotten us off topic of the thread however, feel free to open one on it if you want to continue it further Gary.

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
Gary,
So then what are we to conclude here, Primacy you gave up on, so we win by default.
More that the Clement debate as Nicea said was going round and round, so I left it where it was. I had nothing more to post 🙂
Where are we at with Faith Alone, no such thing right? We can conclude this is a “misunderstanding”? And I do believe one which should be corrected as we see by the New Evangelical churchs.
I hold this truth of sacred scripture most dear.
I fail to see where Trent is wrong. I’m open to listen though. Merit I could post all the CCC verse if you would like I see, thats a perpetual misunderstanding here also.
To pull us back on topic, it is part of your ultimate authority, as such it is correct. Same as for me, scripture and in particular some of Calvins teachings regarding it are authoritative to me, as such I follow them. Post the link to them Gary rather than the whole passage, it’s easier to continue a manageable level of discussion that way.

Lincs.
 
It was a life of continually putting on the new nature, and dying to the old. A life of repentance. Justification by faith alone doesn’t begin to exclude suffering from the believers life.
Linc a life of repentance within the model of Orthodoxy as you said in merely different words is not Faith Alone. Thus my point there is not such thing, there is the proper understanding of Justificaltion through Faith and also the understanding of what Good Works are. Repentence, Suffering, Prayer, and effort to live the Lords will not yours is work. Another simple example is the Good Thief. Be it late at lifes end, He accepted Christ as his Savior. He repented and he suffered, that last not really of consequence here.

I don’t see a grave point here, but I do see a no good misunderstanding, which is very much the area of evil through temptation.

Grace/Faith is a Supernatural infused Virtue by God, all receive this at the moment of Baptism. But this can and is often lost. We have an “obligation” to preserve our Faith. The basis of Salvation is Faith. So we can lose Faith, we must preserve Faith and we “cannot” be saved without it.

Comes back around to the correct understanding of “works”. Or as stated Paul, certainly once sancified by God, he could not have gone home drank wine, and stated “Im-Good” see you all when you get to heaven? For he would NOT have continued on the path he freely chose to cooperate with the Lord in Sanctifying Grace.

And to further state, had Paul not done this…he would not have been “predestined”. Course I would never argue he had to go to the extreme he did, but he was on a mission of Free Will by becoming an “Instant” believer in the Lord. Whatever he seen, he never forgot that, and this lived and grew in him daily because through Free Will he cooperated with Gods Will. And if you would suggest this wasn’t hard “work” obviously I would disagree.
 
Gary,

More that the Clement debate as Nicea said was going round and round, so I left it where it was. I had nothing more to post 🙂

I hold this truth of sacred scripture most dear.

To pull us back on topic, it is part of your ultimate authority, as such it is correct. Same as for me, scripture and in particular some of Calvins teachings regarding it are authoritative to me, as such I follow them. Post the link to them Gary rather than the whole passage, it’s easier to continue a manageable level of discussion that way.

Lincs.
Well I felt we were not going anywhere and to be quite frank, I am tired of discussing the same issues over and over and over.
 
Gary,
Linc a life of repentance within the model of Orthodoxy as you said in merely different words is not Faith Alone.
Maybe you have a misunderstanding of what we mean by faith alone, Gary. With respect of course. You mention the importance of works, and I say Amen. I simply don’t think these works have anything to do with justification, which is by faith alone: “And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” (Rom 4:5) Good works follow Justification, as the believer is conformed to the image of Christ more and more day by day… “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10) - It is by grace alone that one has faith, which is counted as righteousness. Not by works, so that no one may boast. This person who is justified then will perform good works, as he was prepared to do, as fruits of thankfulness for what the Lord has done in his life.
Comes back around to the correct understanding of “works”. Or as stated Paul, certainly once sancified by God, he could not have gone home drank wine, and stated “Im-Good” see you all when you get to heaven? For he would NOT have continued on the path he freely chose to cooperate with the Lord in Sanctifying Grace.
Again Gary, I don’t think works are unimportant… Those grafted into Christ with true faith will then do these works. justification and sanctification are distinct, but the former will always be followed by the latter.
And to further state, had Paul not done this…he would not have been “predestined”. Course I would never argue he had to go to the extreme he did, but he was on a mission of Free Will by becoming an “Instant” believer in the Lord. Whatever he seen, he never forgot that, and this lived and grew in him daily because through Free Will he cooperated with Gods Will. And if you would suggest this wasn’t hard “work” obviously I would disagree.
Whilst we have obvious disagreements on predestination and the nature of the will, I dont want to bring that into our discussion as its big enough already! But on the hard work comment: yes it was! Sola Fide does not mean there are no works! But that these don’t contribute to justification… For even our best efforts are stained with Sin, and so that no one may boast.

Lincs.
 
Well I felt we were not going anywhere and to be quite frank, I am tired of discussing the same issues over and over and over.
Hi Nicea,

Indeed we both were firmly entrenched so to speak! But thank you for what was a most interesting discussion!

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
Hi Nicea,

Indeed we both were firmly entrenched so to speak! But thank you for what was a most interesting discussion!

Kind regards

Lincs.
Not a problem. Do not get me wrong, I did enjoy it and it is good to discuss our differences.

God Bless you. BTW: What specific Protestant faith do you belong to?
 
Those grafted into Christ with true faith will then do these works. justification and sanctification are distinct, but the former will always be followed by the latter.

Lincs.
Amen, and you know why? One word Linc…“LOVE” of the Lord to do His will. For that is all that consoles them. I don’t disagree here.

Insomuch as they have infinite desire, that is, they are joined to Me by affection of Love, they therefore grieve when they offend Me, or see Me offended, their every pain whether spirit or corporal, from whereever it may come, receives infinate “merit” , and satisfies for a guilt which deserved an infinite penalty although their works are finite and done in finite time; suffering with desire, and contrition, and infinate displeasure against their guilt, their pain is held worthy.

Paul explained this when he said: If I had tongues of angels, and if i knew the things of the future and gave my body to burn, and have not love, it would be worth nothing to me.

Thus the Apostle shows that finite works are not valid, either as punishment or recompense, without the condiment of the affection of love. Catherine of Siena

Thus the path, James and Paul do not contradict.
 
Not a problem. Do not get me wrong, I did enjoy it and it is good to discuss our differences.

God Bless you. BTW: What specific Protestant faith do you belong to?
Nicea,

I am part of the newfrontiers family of churches. Essentially I’m reformed (hence my affinity for Calvin!) and charismatic (meaning I hold that spiritual gifts, such as those in 1 Cor 12, still exist today). Not entirley unlike what you may hear from John Piper.

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
Now that the page we are on seems to clarify some other issues to a degree. Wouldn’t you agree? We are still confronted with a dilemma. The conclusion which we can all agree is “good” Christians exist in many different areas thus church’s.

There are souls on fire for the Lord in many areas. Yet there is still a residing issue which is Biblical.

“I pray that they are “one” as You and I are one”

“A Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand”

While “Orthodoxy” requires all to be in communion as one. John Calvin also presents a model of “the church” in which reside the elect or predestined. Thus it would seem to me a somewhat similiar parallel.

So Linc, why can’t these Souls on Fire for the Lord speaking in tongues etc continue on there path say in the Anglican, Baptist, Assembly of God, Mainline Protestant etc and obtain eternal salvation? How does this theory coincide with John Calvins as to Salvation Outside the John Calvin congregation? If we are assume which I believe we can, many souls out here are indeed on fire with the Lord, they why do they need be in Calvinism? Are they doomed otherwise by definition of Elect and Prestination?

Follow my thinking?

BTW my intention much earlier with the anti-calvinist post was to place correct understanding on these Souls, which seems to be confirmed in my mind from our conversation here and elsewhere.

In other words I don’t view Calvinists as souls who walk around in derisive pride thinking the are the “elect”. They have a love of the Lord. They believe what they believe and are in many case’s on fire with Jesus Christ. Thus my point is how to reconcile Biblical reality in Christ words above.

This one church, which we must admit at some point must exist, can we not conclude even as John Calvin would agree being a reformer, this one church existed in communion for 1200 years. Even if we are read his rebuttal to Trent we see in his words the acknowledgement of the Church. Be it he believed it was wrong in areas, yet to what degree can we conclude he was right? Can we also not conclude John Calvin has made errors?

So then what makes Calvimism different and correct if we remove “Orthodoxy” from the equation?
 
Hi Gary,
Thanks for your post.
While “Orthodoxy” requires all to be in communion as one. John Calvin also presents a model of “the church” in which reside the elect or predestined. Thus it would seem to me a somewhat similiar parallel.
Most people I know draw a distinction between the church ‘invisible’ (known only to God, his elect) and the church ‘visible’ (the local congregations of believers we see) - rbvincent.com/BibleStudies/churchvisible.htm
So Linc, why can’t these Souls on Fire for the Lord speaking in tongues etc continue on there path say in the Anglican, Baptist, Assembly of God, Mainline Protestant etc and obtain eternal salvation? How does this theory coincide with John Calvins as to Salvation Outside the John Calvin congregation? If we are assume which I believe we can, many souls out here are indeed on fire with the Lord, they why do they need be in Calvinism? Are they doomed otherwise by definition of Elect and Prestination?
They can! I’m not someone who limits salvation to ony those who know very detail and adhere to all of Calvins theology, because I don’t hold to all of it myself! So no, being a Calvinist is not an essential. I am one indeed, but I don’t dare to limit salvation to just other Calvinists. I know many beloved brothers and sisters who don’t share my views, but they are indeed just that; my brothers and sisters in the Lord 🙂
This one church, which we must admit at some point must exist, can we not conclude even as John Calvin would agree being a reformer, this one church existed in communion for 1200 years. Even if we are read his rebuttal to Trent we see in his words the acknowledgement of the Church. Be it he believed it was wrong in areas, yet to what degree can we conclude he was right? Can we also not conclude John Calvin has made errors?
So then what makes Calvimism different and correct if we remove “Orthodoxy” from the equation?
We do indeed agree. I think it’s correct as I think it expounds Accuratley what is taught in scripture. We have come full circle on our authority discussion!

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
Hi James,

From the JDDJ, I don’t subscribe to it, I think it leaves far to much ambiguity on things to have resolved the issues that at present exist. Salvation is by Grace alone indeed. But what does the JDDJ mean by Grace? “in faith” What does it understand by this? Imputation, infusion? I understand the aim of the document is to foster renewed attempts at unification, but I think it doesn’t really provide a clear position.

Kind regards

Lincs.
Lincs,

I’m glad we agree on grace alone. JDDJ did leave much dialogue left to be done. It was instrumental in highlighting the commonalities and differences.

Lins - I can tell you are well educated, inspired, and passionate about your topics. I pray that we all have greater unity of these theological principals in the coming generation.

I must not forget, this is God’s church and he creates Christian Unity. Our job is to bring the unity that exist in God to a better historical expression.

I’ll continue to keep my heart open to Protestant theology and pray that God always leads me to truth.

My advice to any brother in Christ is to spend an hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament, with an open-mind and heart, praying that God reveal himself to you in the Holy Eucharist. For it is in the Holy Eucharist thatis the source and summit.

When I spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament, I can feel my soul is experiencing something deeper than I can explain.

God Bless,

James
 
Both. Without an infallible authority,the Church would be like a ship without a rudder.
The scriptures are called inerrant. Infallibility refers to the immunity of persons from the liability of teaching error.

The scriptures are not enough to sustain the Church in true doctrine and unity,because they are words on paper,not persons with authority in the Church who can rightly interpret and uphold and guard the true doctrines and refute errors. Scripture cannot safeguard itself from misinterpretation nor guard Christians from being misled. Nor does the Spirit ensure that everyone who reads the Bible in faith will not be misled. That ought to be obvious from the many people who have faith in Jesus and read the Bible yet hold false ideas about Jesus and truth and morality and how God created living species and how the earth is sustained.

As I said:
False doctrines would spread unchecked through human error and at the instigation of the devil,and the Church would be subverted. You will likely admit that the Holy Spirit sustains the true doctrines in the world. In the Catholic Church,this is done through the agency of the teaching office of Peter,just as with the ancient Hebrews it was done through the agency of prophets. As you said,God uses fallible men to achieve his purposes. But if God uses men to teach with his authority true doctrines to the whole Church,then they are not fallible in that capacity,because God sustains them in truth,and he would not allow for them to fail to carry out the purpose for which he uses them.
 
Hi Anthony,
The scriptures are called inerrant. Infallibility refers to the immunity of persons from the liability of teaching error.
Naturally we disagree.
The scriptures are not enough to sustain the Church in true doctrine and unity,because they are words on paper,not persons with authority in the Church who can rightly interpret and uphold and guard the true doctrines and refute errors.
Oh but how much more they are!

“Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” (Psalm 119:105)

"But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.” (Matt 22:29) The Lord seemed to think we could know the scripture and discern essential truths…

Yes it is the job of ministers of the gospel to guard the truths the scriptures contain. But on the idea you present of the need for this church authority to be infallible, which I do of course debate, how often does it do this? Very infrequently… :catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/BibleVersesDefinedByChurch.doc
Your post seems to set the church in a position of authority over the inspired words of God.
Scripture cannot safeguard itself from misinterpretation nor guard Christians from being misled. Nor does the Spirit ensure that everyone who reads the Bible in faith will not be misled. That ought to be obvious from the many people who have faith in Jesus and read the Bible yet hold false ideas about Jesus and truth and morality and how God created living species and how the earth is sustained.
If you accept it can be misrepresented, which I do as well, you affirm it does have a clear meaning we can discern, in order to spot misrepresentation.

To end with a quote from the Westminister Confession -
  1. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.y
    (y) Acts 15:15; John 5:46; 2 Pet 1:20-21
Kind regards Anthony 🙂

Lincs
 
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