Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

[anthony022071]

Lincs,

I’m glad we agree on grace alone.

“Grace alone” in protestant theology carries with it the idea that we are saved by faith alone and our good works do not merit salvation. Grace is defined in protestant theology merely as “unmerited favor”,not as spiritual help from the which enables us to obey the commandments.

 

[JaKael02]

“Grace alone” in protestant theology carries with it the idea that we are saved by faith alone and our good works do not merit salvation. Grace is defined in protestant theology merely as “unmerited favor”,not as spiritual help from the which enables us to obey the commandments.

Anthony -

The “grace alone” was pulled from the Joint Declaration of Doctrine on Justification. Within that document, the Lutherns and Catholics were able to agree upon Grace alone and it not equating to faith alone.

I agree that good works do not merit our salvation. Good works complete our faith. Faith that manifests itself in obedience, love, and good works.

**Lincs - **
What type of Protestant are you? Has this discussion given you any degree of a better understanding or respect for Catholicisms position?

In my opinion, the more I learn about Protestant theology, the more i respect and draw closer to my breathern.

 

[JaKael02]

Yes it is the job of ministers of the gospel to guard the truths the scriptures contain. But on the idea you present of the need for this church authority to be infallible, which I do of course debate, how often does it do this? Very infrequently… :catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/BibleVersesDefinedByChurch.doc
Your post seems to set the church in a position of authority over the inspired words of God.

Kind regards Anthony

Lincs

Lincs -

I can not accept it is the job of any minister to guard the truths of scripture. Simply because too often they disagree. Too often moral teachings are in conflict. (Contraception, Abortion, SS Marriage, No-fault divorce) This is more than misrepresentation or misintrepreting scripture.

The Church does speak infallibly infrequently. But speaks with one voice daily. The Church is constantly sheparding the flock through history. This is a blessing to have.

Church’s authority is not “over” inspired word. It springs from the same source - Christ.

I used no solid theological sources here. Just my opinions and ‘gut’ feelings. Makes for a weak argument in a theological discussion… i know.

Regards,

James

 

[Lincoln7]

“Grace alone” in protestant theology carries with it the idea that we are saved by faith alone and our good works do not merit salvation. Grace is defined in protestant theology merely as “unmerited favor”,not as spiritual help from the which enables us to obey the commandments.

I never label it as “merely” unmerited favour, for it cost the Lord everything to die for us.

But indeed, I stand with the scriptures and the reformers; man cannot merit eternal life. For salvation is by Gods grace alone, unmerited favour that comes based on nothing in the recipient, on no works they can do “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” (Rom 11:6). If Grace is given on the basis of works, then it is no longer grace! There is a distinction between justification before God, and sanctification. One is justified by faith alone as a gift of grace; “and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3:24). Sanctification, being made more like Christ, will happen to those justified. They are separate, but will both be present.

“4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” - (Rom 3:4-5)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” - (Eph 2:8-10) This is not your own doing… Not by works, so that none may boast. But by grace alone, through faith alone. We then perform good works, we daily put off the old nature and put on the new, as Paul says; these works were prepared that we should walk in them…

Just as Paul says in Gal 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” We now live for him, every day. The good works we do are not the basis of our forgiveness by God, which is by his grace alone, they are our response to the wonderful and abundant love Christ has shown to us.

Kind regards

Lincs.

 

[Lincoln7]

**Lincs - **
What type of Protestant are you? Has this discussion given you any degree of a better understanding or respect for Catholicisms position?

In my opinion, the more I learn about Protestant theology, the more i respect and draw closer to my breathern.

Hi James,

I am reformed and charismatic. Indeed the discussion here has helped me understand the Catholic position more. But I don’t accept it. Thank you for your kind words though

I can not accept it is the job of any minister to guard the truths of scripture. Simply because too often they disagree. Too often moral teachings are in conflict. (Contraception, Abortion, SS Marriage, No-fault divorce) This is more than misrepresentation or misintrepreting scripture.

By guarding it I mean that my elders for example, are to preach the pure gospel, administer the sacraments and excercise discipline in the church. They are thus guarding the truth and keeping safe their congregation. If you get what I mean by that, I can be a tad confusing at times!

The Church does speak infallibly infrequently. But speaks with one voice daily. The Church is constantly sheparding the flock through history. This is a blessing to have.

Indeed it has, I don’t hold to some position that there was no church from 100 to 1517… But that by 1517, the essential gospel needed to be clarified. So yes, the universal church is a wonderful blessing to be a part of.

Church’s authority is not “over” inspired word.

I often perceive it functions that way, as scripture is only viewed as authroritative if the church says it is.

Westminister - 4. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man, or church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.i
(i) 2 Pet 1:19-20; 2 Tim 3:16; 1 John 5:9; 1 Thess 2:13; Rev 1:1-2

Kind regards friend

Lincs

 

[anthony022071]

Hi Anthony,

Naturally we disagree.

But it is a fact that the word inerrant is appliesd to scripture is called innerrant,whereas the word infallible is applied to persons and to the Church.

Oh but how much more they are!

“Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” (Psalm 119:105)

"But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.” (Matt 22:29) The Lord seemed to think we could know the scripture and discern essential truths…

This is not proof that scripture can safeguard people from error. It is true that we can discern essential truths from scripture,but people also discern wrongly from scripture.
I’m sure you would agree that the Gnostics,Doceists,Arians,Nestorians,Pelagians and Monophysities discerned wrongly from scripture,despite their faith,and that Shelby Spong and Bob Bell and liberal,modernist theologians do. And Catholics. The saducees and many of the scholars of the law certainly did.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Lincs -

I can not accept it is the job of any minister to guard the truths of scripture. Simply because too often they disagree. Too often moral teachings are in conflict. (Contraception, Abortion, SS Marriage, No-fault divorce) This is more than misrepresentation or misintrepreting scripture.

The Church does speak infallibly infrequently. But speaks with one voice daily. The Church is constantly sheparding the flock through history. This is a blessing to have.

Church’s authority is not “over” inspired word. It springs from the same source - Christ.

I used no solid theological sources here. Just my opinions and ‘gut’ feelings. Makes for a weak argument in a theological discussion… i know.

Regards,

James

Actually Pope Benedict has spoken on this several times recently, the church is Jesus Christ. Thus the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[GaryTaylor]

But it is a fact that the word inerrant is appliesd to scripture is called innerrant,whereas the word infallible is applied to persons and to the Church.

This is not proof that scripture can safeguard people from error. It is true that we can discern essential truths from scripture,but people also discern wrongly from scripture.
I’m sure you would agree that the Gnostics,Doceists,Arians,Nestorians,Pelagians and Monophysities discerned wrongly from scripture,despite their faith,and that Shelby Spong and Bob Bell and liberal,modernist theologians do. And Catholics. The saducees and many of the scholars of the law certainly did.

“All have sinned”. Actually no child under the age of consciousness has sinned, let alone Jesus and Mary.

 

[JaKael02]

Actually Pope Benedict has spoken on this several times recently, the church is Jesus Christ. Thus the Mystical Body of Christ.

I don’t get it. Did I say something incorrect? If so, please correct me because I didn’t mean to.

Thank you,

James

 

[JaKael02]

“All have sinned”. Actually no child under the age of consciousness has sinned, let alone Jesus and Mary.

Children under the age of consciousness have original sin? Or am I misinterpreting your point?

 

[JaKael02]

I am reformed and charismatic. Indeed the discussion here has helped me understand the Catholic position more. But I don’t accept it. Thank you for your kind words though

I’m way under-educated on reformed and charistmatic? Could you sum it up in a sentence for me?

Lincs - please consider taking me up on my Blessed Sacrament idea at some point in your life. I say this because it was the only reason I was Catholic for over a year.

By guarding it I mean that my elders for example, are to preach the pure gospel, administer the sacraments and excercise discipline in the church. They are thus guarding the truth and keeping safe their congregation. If you get what I mean by that, I can be a tad confusing at times!

Our Pope is eager to hear new ways in which his office can be of assistance to other denominations. Is it possible to have your elders preach the pure gospel, administer the sacraments and excercise discipline in the church while reverting to Pope for social moral concerns? Thoughts?

This away we more of Christianity is aligned on SS marriage, contraception, abortion, euthanasia, death penalty, just war doctrines, etc.

I often perceive it functions that way, as scripture is only viewed as authroritative if the church says it is.

I see what your saying. From your perspective, “IF” the Church had authority to define scripture, and they defined the Bible as infalliable. Wouldn’t the original source of authority still remain Christ, b/c Christ works “thru” his Church?

Therefore it is NOT Church > Bible but rather Church = Bible (flowing from same source) and this Bible > Magisterium (teaching authority, which only serves Sacred Scripture).

Just seeing if we could attack it from a different angle. Probably didn’t help though.

Brother in Christ,

james

 

[JaKael02]

Nicea,

I am part of the newfrontiers family of churches. Essentially I’m reformed (hence my affinity for Calvin!) and charismatic (meaning I hold that spiritual gifts, such as those in 1 Cor 12, still exist today). Not entirley unlike what you may hear from John Piper.

Kind regards

Lincs.

Lincs -

I asked you this in my previous post. Ignore that because you answered it here.

Thanks!

 

[mackbrislawn]

"But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.” (Matt 22:29) The Lord seemed to think we could know the scripture and discern essential truths…

The Pharisees of course did know the Scriptures, and well. Then why did Jesus say they did not know the Scriptures? Because they did not understand them. Hence, they did not know the Scriptures.

In my view, the reformers, although knowing the Scriptures like the Pharisees, did not in fact know them at all, because they read Scriptures from the wrong premises and therefore reached wrong conclusions from them.

Why do we have different views and premises? I don’t know. The idea of going to parts of scripture that are more clear is valid, so I feel the whole of scripture when understood does not support the reformer’s understanding.

Perhaps none of us understands the power of God.

 

[Lincoln7]

The Pharisees of course did know the Scriptures, and well. Then why did Jesus say they did not know the Scriptures? Because they did not understand them. Hence, they did not know the Scriptures.

In my view, the reformers, although knowing the Scriptures like the Pharisees, did not in fact know them at all, because they read Scriptures from the wrong premises and therefore reached wrong conclusions from them.

Why do we have different views and premises? I don’t know. The idea of going to parts of scripture that are more clear is valid, so I feel the whole of scripture when understood does not support the reformer’s understanding.

Perhaps none of us understands the power of God.

What were there wrong premises?

Their conclusions on justification are at harmony with the NT. A reading of Calvin or Luther on this for example, their work allows for the NT to speak for itself in all it’s perspicuity.

Kind regards

Lincs.

 

[pablope]

What were there wrong premises?

Their conclusions on justification are at harmony with the NT. A reading of Calvin or Luther on this for example, their work allows for the NT to speak for itself in all it’s perspicuity.

Kind regards

Lincs.

Let me ask, Linc…since you stated this…“Their conclusions on justification are at harmony with the NT”…according to whom?

Keep in mind, we are talking about a vital teaching…the salvation of man…so…Who is that authority that can make that judgement?

You? Why should I believe you? Can you make in infallible judgement they are correct? If not, then who?

 

[Lincoln7]

Let me ask, Linc…since you stated this…“Their conclusions on justification are at harmony with the NT”…according to whom?

Keep in mind, we are talking about a vital teaching…the salvation of man…so…Who is that authority that can make that judgement?

You? Why should I believe you? Can you make in infallible judgement they are correct? If not, then who?

According to whom? To the sacred scriptures themsleves my friend. Your question only poses a difficulty if we are concluding that say Romans 3:28 is unclear. That Romans 4:4-5 are unclear. That Paul’s wonderful statement of “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” is unclear…

I’m quite prepared to say they are not. The authoritative scriptures are clear on this. It’s not me one is to believe, rather one is to “Repent, and believe in the gospel…” (Mark 1:5), the gosepl that is shown to us with such clarity in scripture.

Kind regards

Lincs.

 

[mackbrislawn]

What were there wrong premises?

Their conclusions on justification are at harmony with the NT. A reading of Calvin or Luther on this for example, their work allows for the NT to speak for itself in all it’s perspicuity.

Kind regards

Lincs.

What were their wrong premises? I have no idea, but since I don’t agree with their conclusions, their premises have to be faulty. We all have hidden premises we are quite unaware of.

Perhaps in the reformer’s interpretive framework, their conclusions seem to be in harmony with the NT. But others have points of view that are also “in harmony” with the NT, but differ from the reformer’s.

Why read Calvin or Luther? Neither was inspired nor led by the Spirit, so why bother? Their writings are their opinions only, and no more valid than anyone else’s.

But, you also said their writings allow for the NT to speak for itself in all its perspicuity. What? You don’t think that statement is kind of a contradiction? You mean the NT isn’t perspicuous nor able to speak for itself without Luther and Calvin?

The NT can speak for itself but it has to have help?

 

[pablope]

Let me ask, Linc…since you stated this…“Their conclusions on justification are at harmony with the NT”…according to whom?

Keep in mind, we are talking about a vital teaching…the salvation of man…so…Who is that authority that can make that judgement?

You? Why should I believe you? Can you make in infallible judgement they are correct? If not, then who?

According to whom? To the sacred scriptures themsleves my friend.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think the bottom issue is that when people split up, – permanently – and there is one partner who is abusive or not living up to one’s calling, the other partner who divorces is still somehow stuck.

The partner is stuck because he/she refuses to believe that the other can change or reform.

What is worse is that the partner who splits assumes he is better than the latter, even after the former has reformed their way.

That does not reflect the ongoing forgiveness Christ calls us to. And we deceive ourselves if we think we are better than other Christians.

 

[anthony022071]

Anthony -

The “grace alone” was pulled from the Joint Declaration of Doctrine on Justification. Within that document, the Lutherns and Catholics were able to agree upon Grace alone and it not equating to faith alone.

I agree that good works do not merit our salvation. Good works complete our faith. Faith that manifests itself in obedience, love, and good works.

Good works done out of faith do merit salvation. This is a teaching of the Church. We will be judged - that is,saved or condemned - according to our works.

Council of Trent:

Chap. 16. The Fruit of Justification, that is, the Merit of Good Works, and the Reasonableness of that Merit

To men, therefore, who have been justified in this respect, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or have recovered it when lost, the words of the Apostle are to be submitted: “Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord” [1 Cor. 15:58]; “for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work and the love, which you have shown in his name” [Heb. 6:10], and: “Do not lose your confidence, which has a great reward” [Heb. 10:35]. And therefore to those who work well “unto the end” [Matt. 10:22], and who trust in God, life eternal is to be proposed, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, “and as a recompense” which is according to the promise of God Himself to be faithfully given to their good works and merits. For this is that “crown of justice which after his fight and course” the Apostle declared “was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming” [2 Tim. 4:7ff.]. For since Christ Jesus Himself as the “head into the members” [Eph. 4:15], and “as the vine into the branches” [John 15:5] continually infuses His virtue into the said justified, a virtue which always precedes their good works, and which accompanies and follows them, and without which they could in no wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that to those justified nothing more is wanting from being considered as having satisfied the divine law by those works which have been done in God according to the state of this life, and as having truly merited eternal life to be obtained in its own time (if they shall have departed this life in grace [Rev. 14:13]), since Christ our Lord says: “If anyone shall drink of the water, that I will give him, he shall not thirst forever, but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting” [John 4:14]. Thus neither is “our own justice established as our own” from ourselves, nor is the justice of God [Rom. 10:3] “ignored” or repudiated; for that justice which is called ours, because we are justified through its inherence in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because it is infused into us by God through the merit of Christ.

Canon XXVI: If anyone saith that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well-doing and in keeping the commandments; let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified are in such a way the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works, which are done by him through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (whose living member he is), does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema.