Authority of the Church

[ladylinguist]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

 

[NotWorthy]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

What are the fruits of Christianity in churches where there is no authority? They are fruitful and multiply, but I don’t think God intended churches to be like children.

What happens if a Catholic man marries a Methodist woman and they argue over contraception. The man takes the problem to the Catholic Church and the priest says contraception is sinful (something that has been taught for 2000 years). The woman simply says, “I’m taking it to my church”. The pastor at the Methodist Church tells her it’s the woman’s choice (something the Methodist have only taught for 70 years - give or take a few).

Matthew 18 implies that a Church is authoritative.

 

[Mike_Dye]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

I can think of no more theologically sound way than Sacred Scriptures. Jesus instituted the Catholic Church and appointed Peter as it’s head.

 

[Tietjen]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

Well, I’d say start off by pointing out that after Christ ascended to Heaven the Apostles were the leaders of the new Church. He should be able to agree on this point. Next, point out to him that prior to Christ’s departure he delegates power and authority to the Apostles (Mt 28:18-20). In John 20:23 Christ gave the Apostles (the leaders of the new Church) the power to forgive sins. In 1 Cor 11:23-24, we see that they had the authority to offer sacrifice (the Eucharist). In Lk 10:16, the Apostles have the authority to speak with Christ’s voice. In Mt 18:18 they have the authority to legislate. In Mt 18:17 they have the authority to discipline.
The next step would be in pointing out that Christ did not intend for the authority to end with the deaths of the Apostles. That simply wouldn’t make sense unless His 2nd coming was going to happen in their lifetimes. Since we are having this discussion today (2000 years later) that couldn’t be the case. We know from St. Paul’s writings that the Church was set up with Bishops, presbyters, deacons, etc. There was an established hierarchy as Scripture clearly points out. The authority given to the first Church leaders exists even today.

St. Augustine wrote in 392AD:
St. Augustine:

The Catholic Church is the work of divine providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the sufferings, the crosses, the blood and death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints… When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the apostolic chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.

 

[Nickkname]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

The Church is the Mother of Christians. A mother has authority over her children. And we must honor our Mother, according to the fourth commandment.

 

[ladylinguist]

Thanks for the replies so far. Does anybody have any book recommendations that I might be able to pass on to my father? He’s open minded (fortunately) and is very willing to read up on the subject, if only to understand why I chose to convert. Books that deal specifically with the papacy and the creation of the church would be perfect.

 

[yinekka]

Your father might like to read Jesus, Peter & the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy )
by Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren,and David Hess

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks for the replies so far. Does anybody have any book recommendations that I might be able to pass on to my father? He’s open minded (fortunately) and is very willing to read up on the subject, if only to understand why I chose to convert. Books that deal specifically with the papacy and the creation of the church would be perfect.

“Upon this Rock” by Steve Ray is good, IMO.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Here is a link to info. on the Church and authority in Scripture and in the early Church fathers.

I recently was in a formal debate and collected a lot of the evidence, in Scripture and Tradition, for Peter’s and his successors’ singular authoritative office. In that debate you will also see much evidence from the beginning of the authority of all bishops too. Link here.

 

[FCEGM]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

These two articles approach the topic in an engaging and insightful manner:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a45.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a131.htm

 

[inkaneer]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

What I would do is go straight to scripture. For instance have him read the passages In MT16:18-19 and then ask him to compare that with Isaiah 22:22. Show him that in both instances the King has a chief steward to look after his household and that chief steward has the keys to lock and unlock [to bind and to loose]. The NT king is of course Jesus and his household is heaven. Peter is given the keys to heaven. Next, go to John 21:15-17 where Jesus asks Peter three times “Do you love me?” Peter responds three times that he does. Jesus then commands Peter twice [verses 15 and 17] to feed my {Jesus’] sheep . The Greek word used is ‘bosko’ However, verse 16 is different. There the Greek word used is ‘poimaino’ and it means to rule or govern. Feed my sheep, Rule my flock , feed my sheep is what Jesus tells Peter. Jesus makes Peter the shepherd of his flock which is the church. There are several other places where Peter is singled out. In Matthew Jesus tells Peter and the Apostles that Satan wants to shift you [plural] as wheat. He then tells Peter that Jesus has prayed for you [singular] so he may strengthen his brothers [the other Apostles] Look up the pronoun ‘you’ the two times it is used in that passage. The first is plural meaning you as a group [the Apostles]. The second ‘you’ is singular meaning only one person, Peter.

 

[johnnydigit]

i think only you and he would know how to approach it best for him to understand. you can go the Church Fathers and Apostolic Fathers route and how they and the earliest Christians clearly talk about authority.

for me one of the things was plain logic, e.g. if Christ came and wanted there to be a church, it must be one of the older ones… or, for any organization to work, there must be order and authority, or else there is confusion. even before my conversion i knew there simply cannot be so much chaos in a church with all the evangelicals and fundamentalists, there must be a true organization that knows Jesus best.

dissecting Matthew 16:18 is what i like. it establishes the authority outright. if you accept it, you must accept the Church. the fun part is learning about the Old Testament kings and how they passed on authority, the keys, the kingdoms, etc.

www.catholic.com of course
www.scripturecatholic.com
www.phatmass.com
www.fisheaters.com
www.catecheticsonline.com

www.catholicscomehome.org
www.chnetwork.com

www.newadvent.com
www.vatican.va

pjpiisoe.org/Resources_Pamphlets.html

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thanks for the replies so far. Does anybody have any book recommendations that I might be able to pass on to my father? He’s open minded (fortunately) and is very willing to read up on the subject, if only to understand why I chose to convert. Books that deal specifically with the papacy and the creation of the church would be perfect.

By What Authority by Mark Shea (Scroll about halfway down the page to find it.)

 

[Eire]

I strongly urge you to go to: biblechristiansociety.com
John Martignoni is the head guy there and the chief apologist.
You can get CD’s by him on pretty much any subject you like.
The CD’s are free if you order by mail.
If you order online you can get up to 3 for $3.00 and $1.00 for each additional. There is one CD that might help you especially titled: ONE CHURCH. You will also hear which chapter and verse supports it all. This is true in all the CD’s.

 

[elts1956]

Thanks for the replies so far. Does anybody have any book recommendations that I might be able to pass on to my father? He’s open minded (fortunately) and is very willing to read up on the subject, if only to understand why I chose to convert. Books that deal specifically with the papacy and the creation of the church would be perfect.

Try

The Catholic Church, the First 2000 Years: A Popular Survey and Study Guide to Church History (Paperback)
by Martha Rasmussen (Author)

This is said to be one that is easy to understand.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

1 Timothy 3:15

if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

The Church is the pillar and bulward of the truth. It doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible that the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

 

[KingAlfred]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

I probably misunderstand the question, but to me, the Church *has no authority *over non-Catholics. Does your father feel as though it does?

 

[NotWorthy]

I probably misunderstand the question, but to me, the Church *has no authority *over non-Catholics. Does your father feel as though it does?

The Church does have authority over all baptized Christians.

It’s like the Law of Gravity - just because you don’t believe in it, doesn’t mean you don’t fall.

 

[bbentrup]

The Church does have authority over all baptized Christians.

It’s like the Law of Gravity - just because you don’t believe in it, doesn’t mean you don’t fall.

Indeed. Regarding Authority - what’s the alternative? Looking to yourself? Frailty - thy name is human. There’s no way we can do a good job of managing ourselves - in fact, it is such a blessing to be able to put yourself under the authority of another. On the contrary, the ones in authority have the really tough job because the salvation of so many souls may be hanging in the balance on what they do and say.

Anyways, do we really think Jesus would leave us without a shepherd? No one to give the definitive word to all the inevitable disputes? The authority of the church is so logical, and these many fine posters have givengood scriptural basis.

Praise Holy Mother Church!

 

[ladylinguist]

I probably misunderstand the question, but to me, the Church *has no authority *over non-Catholics. Does your father feel as though it does?

No, my father doesn’t believe the Church has any authority. It’s merely been a particular point we’ve debated. Essentially, he doesn’t see how any one institution has the right to have spiritual authority over an entire people.