Avoiding priests and religious

[adgloriam]

So I just read around 60 or 70 documents from “Exhibits for Case Study 50”. (Especially exhibit nº50-0002 by Dr. Marie Keenan. Which is lengthy but gives the scientific study and analyses, both Psychological and Sociological, of the perpetrators. And I will remind you, they are human beings.)

@Roseeurekacross @LittleFlower
Listen especially you two fellow Catholics, I’ve read dozens of books about Sociology and Psychology in my day. So, I have enough theoretical background to actually understand nº50-0002. This is a study of enormous complexity. Actually to understand what the youth of those men was like, what made them the way they were. You can’t look at them alone, and the social context is unbelievably complicated.

@LittleFlower
Listen lady fellow catholic, when you watch movies about Nazi Germany or those guys in US prisons. Those are considered “Total Institutions”. To a degree where the human beings in those institutions get out completely brain-washed and dehumanized. NUMBER 1.

Human beings, involved in any society labeled “Elite” have their own kind of brainwashing also. They become totally obsessed with it. And to a great extant loose their ability of independent realistic critical thinking, because everything around them (Society) reinforces them to believe the “Elite”. NUMBER 2

A normal man, has a normal sexual development. Those in celibacy, (be it a Tibetan monk, a catholic priest, or simply a normal Joe/Jane who never had a partner) have a very hard time in which that side of their person never gets to develop. So they reach adulthood, predisposed to many of the mistakes others not celibate would also be predisposed to - only they have zero maturity because they had zero experience. NUMBER 3

So, normally they would be average in all aspects. But the combination of these, of the 3 factors highlighted, CAN PRODUCE (not necessarily) a very difficult situation were some (a minority) loses touch with reality, becomes deviant, and acts out on it.

Again, these are the exception. Because I have met many such priests and nuns, with choice of life for the religious vocation, that are not deviant. And those are the majority.

 

[adgloriam]

Before anyone comment make sure to read “Exhibits for Case Study 50”. Exhibit nº50-0002 by Dr. Marie Keenan.

 

[adgloriam]

I think it’s important to understand what we are actually dealing with and not throw terms about that don’t describe the problem.

Before anyone comment make sure to read “Exhibits for Case Study 50”. Exhibit nº50-0002 by Dr. Marie Keenan.

 

[adgloriam]

@Roseeurekacross if you want I can send you references to texts by renowned writers detailing their experiences in the seminary. It will help you, to understand what their youth was like. When they looked back on it latter in life.

 

[guanophore]

Has anyone gone through similar feelings? If so, how have you managed them? If not, how do you move past this crimes?

It is only natural to have such feelings in the face of such news, but there is a lot we can do:

1. Do not assume/treat all priests and religious as though they are guilty. We are called to love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us.
2. Do not allow “feelings” to separate you from Christ present in the Sacraments and the Church. This is Satan’s goal.He attacks the shepherds because he wants to scatter the sheep. Don’t let him!
3. The grace of God present in the sacraments are not dependent upon the holiness of the priest. The priest acts in the place of Christ, who gives you Holy Bread to eat.
4. Many Church scandals have been weathered by the faithful laity praying and challenging the clergy. Live a life of example for them, just as you expect them to live for you. Don’t allow yourself to flag in zeal just because someone else has behaved badly.
5. Get the Church training on preventing sexual abuse, and be active in your parish as a preventative person.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Do not assume/treat all priests and religious as though they are guilty. We are called to love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us.

Those priests and religious who are truly “not guilty” are in no way “our enemies” and are not “persecuting” anybody.
We should be praying that God gives them the strength to persevere in their good work even while others are unfairly misjudging them as being wrongdoers simply because they are priests or religious.

 

[jfz178]

Exhibits for Case Study 50

Very interesting. I think the concept she talks about of power/powerlessness is classic predation. But she also says:

“It does not appear to be the case that the abuse perpetrated by these men was about gaining power over the victims in order to feel powerful. Rather, their abusive behaviour was more likely to have its genesis in other factors: their interpretation of “friendship”;”

That sounds a bit more like “X-philia” although an X-phile has very distinct preferences for age, gender, hair color, look, personality, etc. and she does not mention that as a factor. I am still going with this fitting mostly with the profile of predation, at least from an operational/legal standpoint. Psychologists have their theories, but cops and other authorities have to target the problem and solve it.

 

[adgloriam]

power/powerlessness

Read through it man, because power in the pure sociological sense of it comes into play further down the document. Forget about psychology, this takes heavy from sociology because…

with the profile of predation, at least from an operational/legal standpoint

the profile of the society that made (and enabled) them is key

 

[adgloriam]

Seminary in the first half of the 20th century [as recounted by some of the most renowned writers of the last century.]

Bathroom would be in the middle of the square. Doors without locks, any “funny guy” would open the door while you were in the “middle of your business”. Total bullying, almost without limit. In some seminaries only 1 change of underwear was allowed, so you had to wash it and wear it amidst freezing cold. Kids from all social classes put together far away from their family. Some had to wear habits and would be ridiculed coming and going to the seminary. Their only chance to become somebody in life…

You really have to read those accounts to have an idea…

 

[adgloriam]

3 enemies of the soul: Flesh, World, Devil.

So you have to exhaust Flesh and World before blaming everything on the Devil. In this case, World had no small part. And you have to exhaust the “World” part and natural causes that can be explained before moving on to blame the supernatural enemy.

 

[LittleFlower]

• To ask why I am even still Catholic if I have these feelings is ludicrous. So I should just give up my faith because I am having a hard time? Many are doing that, which is a tragedy and not something to be encouraged.
• I never said I was alright with how I am feeling, if anyone actually read the original post (please do not listen without deaf ears) they would know that I know that not every religious and priest abused and that I should be showing compassion but am having a hard time due to the nature of the crimes.
• Derailing of the thread at multiple points with other arguments such sport coaches and teachers is silly. I am asking a specific question on a specific set of people as this outcome has affected me most. When people say “Oh, well, teachers also did it”. I have nothing to do with teachers, sport coaches, or the like anymore—perhaps I would avoid them as well if I did. And that would also be okay.
• The post was specific to clergy. The fact that many feel the need to show other examples where it happened, tells me that many here are unwilling to engage on the subject matter or the hurt and pain caused. It is bloody difficult! Most Australian parishioners and those working for the Church are struggling immensely with feelings of disgust and dismay.
• Also to question the statistic and the Royal Commission itself—why? Because it is hard to swallow? Some brother religious had 40% of the brothers abusing the vulnerable and children. That is the truth. Deal with it.
• No, I was not abused. Yes, it is okay to feel like I feel. If anyone else is reading this silently but not commenting, it is alright to feel angry, disgusted, and dismayed. Some here have posted really good advice and approach the situation with compassion. Focus on them!
• Blaming the media for how I am feeling is understandable but not the truth. The truth is that all the abuse happened and yes, the media should report on it. Would I say it was blown out of proportion? No, I would say that most reporting was pretty on point and most media outlets also had in mind that people who had been abused were reading and listening.
• Again, I am not treating anyone harshly or vocally saying my discontent, I remain respectful and kind if a priest decides to engage with me. I just choose not to engage with them right now. It’s being blown out of proportion on how I am treating religious and priests. Also, I am not judging them or saying that they all did it, just like in the original posting I said I know putting them all in the same basket is wrong.

For everyone, who actually read my post for what it was and responded with kindness, I thank you dearly. Since the Royal Commission wrapped up this has been plaguing me more.

 

[LittleFlower]

Because so many are saying how I am feeling is completely ludicrous.

The Archdiocesan magazine “Melbourne Catholic” wrote a piece on organisational trauma and how to deal with the affects of the Royal Commission as a Church community.

In the November issue, pg. 26 onwards.

https://melbournecatholic.org/news

They specifically use the words angered and horrified.

I am begging everyone to actually realise that I am not alone and no, it isn’t some kind of overreaction. The Church community is reeling and in pain.

 

[Spyridon]

@LittleFlower I agree in that I am angry and horrified , and I think most people here are.

I think what most people take issue with, and me personally, is you refusing to even look at innocent priests or shake the hands of an innocent priest.

You are exhibiting signs of what’s called “hierophobia” - fear of Priests. This is a psychological phobia like any other phobia, and you should seek mental health help for it.

Again, we are all disgusted. But you’re taking things too far - you’re exhibiting an abnormal and unhealthy level of disgust, to the point where you won’t even interact with Priests simply because they are priests.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I was physically abused by a teacher, but I don’t refuse to talk to teachers because of it. This actually affected me directly.

 

[LittleFlower]

It’s being blown out of proportion.

I am not fearful of priest, I am disgusted that some have abused the vulnerable and children.

I don’t need psychological help because I am feeling dismayed and angered. Please refrain from trying to diagnose me over the internet.

I was seeking for advice on how to overcome putting them all in one basket. The parish priest where I am now going is very kind, and a beautiful man. I think it is in my own right to decide whether I want to shake his hand, or receive communion from him.

There are many threads here where people have said, I don’t go to this EMHC because she/he is not a nice person OR I don’t like to receive from EMHC, only priests. Why don’t I get to say, I am hurting and at this stage my preference is not to deal with priests and religious?

Just like those who have witnessed horrific car crashes may say actually I will take public transport for a month or two during rush hour traffic, as I am feeling shaky. Everyone would say, that is understandable.

@adamhovey1988 I am so sorry to hear that. The choices you make in how to deal with it, are completely yours and whatever makes it better or easier for you is the right choice for you.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I didn’t read this entire thread. Hardly a day old and already so many replies.

Your anger is justified. Your feelings are real. And your feelings are based in the truth. It’s a real scandal, and it hurts the Church, and it hurts the mission of the church.

The thing about a scandal, by very definition, is that it perverts and twists something. It is only a scandal because priests are not supposed to abuse children… and they usually do not. Most do not. Most have never abused children, for the near 2,000-year existence of the church.

Such is sin of the worst sort, to abuse a child.

And such is scandal, that the sin of the worst sort is not expected of a priest, and is usually not the case. At all.

Interestingly, some people, even on this forum, suggest that scandal and abusive priests somehow discount the Church, or Catholicism, or the priesthood, or sexual morality. That’s a clear distraction from the issue. Christ told us there would be weeds until the end of time. I know this point is emphasized always, but even Christ chose a Judas among his first ministers. We are all flawed. We all sin. This is not to justify the sin, but it is to say that sin itself must not justify rejecting the office (priesthood) or the teachings of the Church. After all, both society and Church know that this is a SCANDAL — and it can only be a scandal if it, as I said, is distorting something. Celibacy is not the issue. Jesus and Paul and the monastics and desert fathers and Christians throughout the centuries were celibate.

It’s easy and human to group all priests together in this way. But we have to remember, it’s not something inherent to being a PRIEST that causes the horrendous sin of child sexual abuse. A person is a flawed human even before receiving Holy Orders. It is that flawed human that is capable of sins of the most horrible sort. That they happen to receive Holy Orders makes their actions all the more scandalous, since priests are called to sanctity and represent in the Church.

But you see the point I’m trying to convey?

 

[LittleFlower]

But you see the point I’m trying to convey?

I do, and I appreciate the time and eloquence that you have taken to write it. This actually helps and you have absolutely hit the nail on the end with the discounting aspect. This was never my intention and I have been surprised that many have reacted like this.

Thank you very much.

I am working towards being able to shake their hands and talk to them again, but it doesn’t need to be overnight or tomorrow or next week. And by taking the time to feel like I do, allows me to reach that point when I’m ready and have processed it all.

 

[guanophore]

I never said I was alright with how I am feeling, if anyone actually read the original post (please do not listen without deaf ears) they would know that I know that not every religious and priest abused and that I should be showing compassion but am having a hard time due to the nature of the crimes.

I understood that, it just seemed like you were letting your feelings influence you about ALL clergy and religious, or maybe assuming all were guilty.

I have nothing to do with teachers, sport coaches, or the like anymore—perhaps I would avoid them as well if I did. And that would also be okay.

If your avoidance involves also avoiding the Sacrament, then I do not think it is “ok”. Besides, none of these other personages acts in the person of Christ, so it is a very different relationship.

Most Australian parishioners and those working for the Church are struggling immensely with feelings of disgust and dismay.

I think this is the case all over the world. This is exactly the goal being sought by Satan. Strike the shepherd and scatter the sheep.

it is alright to feel angry, disgusted, and dismayed.

A person of good conscience could hardly be expected to feel otherwise!

May God’s healing through our Blessed Mother extend to all who have suffered the abuse, directly, and as in your case, indirectly. Dear Lord Jesus, restore you Body to holiness and health that we might be light and salt to the world.

 

[po18guy]

Sorry for any offense I caused. I should know better, and now I do.

 

[Lara]

I think it’s really hard to manage the emotion of anger.

I know of few people who can handle it. It has to be converted to action to dissipate.

You used the word disgust in your original post. It’s a revulsion that you are feeling.

My suggestion is to write out all the reasons these priests’ behaviour is revolting. Then write one sentence on how to reverse the essential problem in one way.

For example, it sickens me that a man could use a child for his own selfish ends. Key word: selfish. Resolve: I will try to teach my kids to always think of others when making decisions.

Second example: It is so hard to see the amount of pain that a child feels for years and years on account of one man’s decision to discredit the feelings of another person. Key word: pain. Resolve: I will try to recognize pain in the things people say to me this week.