B.N.P.? They claim to be Catholic ... anyone know?

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To:believer112 or BNP member

Gabriel of 12;
Truthfully you have me at a disadvantage; for I have no experience with BNP, in fact I have never heard of it until now.

I am not sure if you answered my question? Do BNP have valid ordained Priests and Bishops offering Mass, and administering sacraments to the BNP populace? If so? Can you reveal any names of these religious?

Thus far I understand BNP is a laity movement. But what is this Ontario teaching facility you speak of? what is it for?

I am familiar with Catholic approved Laity movements, of which I participate, that generally have a Saint, Bishop, Priest, or religious community attached to them for official Catholic teaching and instruction. Does BNP have such Catholic religious support?

You are correct, you have the freewill and liberty to excercise your faith, and work out your salvation. The Catholic church is here to protect us, and gurantee us freedom from error in religious matters. It is the choice of the individual to adhere to the God given authority of Peter (Present day Pope) and the successors of the apostles to remain in the Graces of God.

The Catholic church will not change; and she is very slow to accepting any new revelations or teachings without the biblical testing of spirits and scrutiny from the magisterium. Do you know if a Bishop or delegate has personal spoken to this leader of BNP? If a Bishop did, he will probably not reveal anything negative or postive yet, until much is considered. The Church does not move the hand of God, God moves the Church, so she waits on her husband and obeys whatever God reveals. Our Mother Church is always looking out for her children.

It would be wise for the leader of this BNP laity movement to present his/herself to the magisterium as did all other Laity movements, and expose all aspects of its teachings before the successors of the apostles. One question arises for me, is when the good Lord takes the life of the founder of the BNP, who will succeed him/her by what qualifications?

Peace be with you
 
believer112;
Unlike some of those who condemn the BNP, I have actually been to the BNP classes and activities, I have tried my best to see if there is anything doctrinally wrong or substantially deficient in the BNP activities, so far I have found none . Until
there is something I see that is dogmatically incorrect and therefore something I cannot support , I willl continue my journey with the BNP and Mahal Na Ingkong

Gabriel of 12:
I can respect your opinion. So you would not want Catholic church approval and confirmation first before accepting this new movement?

What has impressed you the most about BNP? Others have expressed here good feelings, love, unity, and a change to practice their Catholic faith more? Does not the Catholic church already supply these gifts and more these past 2000 years?

I read in earlier posts here some marvels of this BNP. Has any of them be authenticated by the Catholic church? It is hard to impress a 2000 year old “Rock”. I saw 3 different magicians float on air among other tricks that can impress or boggle the imagination. In my opinion I live by the famous words of St. Augustine " I would not believe the Gospels, if the Catholic church would not have told me to do so"

Peace be with you
 
It’s sad to hear that some people post some negative opinion about the BNP based on hearsay. I’ve been in the BNP for almost 23 years. I’m fortunate enough to be able to be able serve GOD through the BNP. I’ve seen a lot priests and Bishops who supported the BNP. There was a priest who said in his homily that the BNP is most Catholic organization that he had ever known. The center of devotion of BNP is the Holy Eucharist, the Vigil Adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. We have also devotion to the Blessed Mother and the Saints. I have a copy of the letter from Bishop Lagdameo of the Philippines. Bishop Lagdameo is the president of the Catholic Bishop Conference of the Philippines. In his letter he congratulated the BNP for bringing people back to the Church. I’ve tried to attach the whole letter in this forum but the file it’s just to big. If you want a copy just post your email address so I can send you a copy. May God bless you all.
 
I’ve skimmed through this thread, and here’s what I find bothersome:

If the leaders of a movement within the church, any movement within the church, are disobedient to their bishop, that is a red flag this is not of divine origin. For if God were actually working through these leaders, their first instinct would be to obey the authority God has appointed.

Now if these leaders obeyed their bishop by disbanding, yet God actually wanted this organization anyway, God would overcome the ban, for nothing is impossible with God.

I cannot imagine any circumstance under which God would want an organization *not *to submit to the authority of the Church he founded, the Church that is is very Body of Christ (Col. 1-24) So the fact that these people continue to operate in defiance of their bishop tells me something is indeed very wrong.
 
Kay_Cee said:
I’ve skimmed through this thread, and here’s what I find bothersome:

If the leaders of a movement within the church, any movement within the church, are disobedient to their bishop, that is a red flag this is not of divine origin. For if God were actually working through these leaders, their first instinct would be to obey the authority God has appointed.

I begto differ with this statement. First of all, the diocese of San Bernardino never established a dialogue with the BNP before issuing the current interdict they have against the BNP members. So how can we know how and in what we way we disobeyed.
Second , you paint with a broad brush considering all the people that were once subject to interdicts , The list includes Saint Bernadette, Padre PIO, Mother Teresa of Calcutta …etc… . In fact , if you look at the History of the Catholic Church , you will find examples where saints disobeyed or were thought to have disobeyed the Church , And please I am not comparing the BNP and its membership to some of the holiest people that this world has seen , I am just saying that God moves in very strange and wonderful ways and we should not condemn any movement as good or bad until we ourselves have seen it
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Now if these leaders obeyed their bishop by disbanding, yet God actually wanted this organization anyway, God would overcome the ban, for nothing is impossible with God.

I agree the BNP has not only survived but thrived for forty years despite of having interdicts and bans against it , this can only be through God’s unmerited grace, The BNP has chapters in Europe, Asia, Australia ,the Americas etc… some dioceses have accepted us with open arms ( I can show the letters ) and
some have not.

I cannot imagine any circumstance under which God would want an organization *not *to submit to the authority of the Church he founded, the Church that is is very Body of Christ (Col. 1-24) So the fact that these people continue to operate in defiance of their bishop tells me something is indeed very wrong.

Does a Cardinal trump an arch bishop , does a bishop outrank a Monsignor. so on and on. Only the Pope , the Vicar of Christ speaking ex-cathedra ( from the chair ) has the final say. until then everything else is up for discussion. The BNP has not defied anyone. If they tell us that we cannot participate in the sacramental life in one diocese , we move on to another one where we can.

There is still a lot of errors and misrepresentations about the BNP that are circulating out there, My sincere hope is that these errors are corrected and the BNP can be restored to full sacramental union with the Catholic Church…

Until then May God Bless you and yours.
 
I begto differ with this statement. First of all, the diocese of San Bernardino never established a dialogue with the BNP before issuing the current interdict they have against the BNP members. So how can we know how and in what we way we disobeyed.
Second , you paint with a broad brush considering all the people that were once subject to interdicts , The list includes Saint Bernadette, Padre PIO, Mother Teresa of Calcutta …etc… . In fact , if you look at the History of the Catholic Church , you will find examples where saints disobeyed or were thought to have disobeyed the Church , And please I am not comparing the BNP and its membership to some of the holiest people that this world has seen , I am just saying that God moves in very strange and wonderful ways and we should not condemn any movement as good or bad until we ourselves have seen it
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Since when is it up to ***us ***to judge a movement? Can you show me where Jesus gave us that authority?

You’re reading an awful lot into what I said. Can you show where I discussed the BNP? I made a general statement about leaders obeying the God-given authorities over them.

And I am sure Mother Teresa, Padre Pio, and Saint Bernadette were the first to submit to such authority.
believer112 said:
Does a Cardinal trump an arch bishop , does a bishop outrank a Monsignor. so on and on. Only the Pope , the Vicar of Christ speaking ex-cathedra ( from the chair ) has the final say. until then everything else is up for discussion. The BNP has not defied anyone. If they tell us that we cannot participate in the sacramental life in one diocese , we move on to another one where we can.

There is still a lot of errors and misrepresentations about the BNP that are circulating out there, My sincere hope is that these errors are corrected and the BNP can be restored to full sacramental union with the Catholic Church…

Until then May God Bless you and yours.
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We are to submit to those God has given authority over us. Period. I might remind you God gave the authority to bind and loose to all the Apostles and that they passed this authority to their successors. If BNP wants to appeal to the Vatican, it has that right. In the meantime, its leaders should obey the local bishop.

Let me ask you this: What gives these people the right to defy the bishop’s authority? Can you show me anything in Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition that endows them with that right?
 
Joannes said:
Hello:

Well, there’s your answer: the Vatican and the Archdiocese of Detroit don’t recognize them, so who needs them? They are preaching some other doctrine.

Sounds like some Filipino group. Just the other day I tuned into very early TV here in Detroit and found some guy that sounded like a Protestant but who was dressed in a chasuble and kept moving from English into Tagalog and back. Maybe he belonged to this cult. I didn’t get his name, though the broadcast originated from Baguio City in the Philippines, but I’ll tune in again. I wondered then if he was with that “Iglesia ni Cristo”.

Regards,
Joannes
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LGLESINA NI CRISTO IS THIS THE PERSON THAT STARTED THE CHURCH OF CHRIST WHICH I THIBK DO NOT BELIEVE IB THE TRINTLY
 
believer112 said:
Does a Cardinal trump an arch bishop , does a bishop outrank a Monsignor. so on and on. Only the Pope , the Vicar of Christ speaking ex-cathedra ( from the chair ) has the final say. until then everything else is up for discussion. The BNP has not defied anyone. If they tell us that we cannot participate in the sacramental life in one diocese , we move on to another one where we can.

Does this mean to say that if the bishop of that diocese don’t want you there, you obey that bishop and go to another diocese and seek the approval of that next bishop to conduct your lay ministry? Why don’t they want you there? Did you bother to ask them?

There is still a lot of errors and misrepresentations about the BNP that are circulating out there, My sincere hope is that these errors are corrected and the BNP can be restored to full sacramental union with the Catholic Church…

**What do you mean by full sacramental union with the CatholicChurch? You are not in full communion because of what? **
God Bless you too.
Until then May God Bless you and yours.
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IT does not mean that , as I have said in my previous statement, there was no dialogue initiated between The Diocese of San Bernardino and the BNP . How can we find out what was wrong in what we did when there was not even an attempt to start a dialogue, all of a sudden we found the ban or interdict posted , There was never an effort made to discuss the BNP.

There should be question in your mind why some priests ,bishops and cardinals accept the movement and some don’t … does this mean that the church is divided , NO it does not mean that , it just means that those who accepted us see some good in the movement and want it to prosper. Like I said only the POPE speaking ex cathedra can decide with finality what the BNP is ,

Look at it this way , Padre PIO, Saint Bernadette , Mother Teresa of Calcutta were all subjects of interdicts . At the start of their individual missions they were all prohibited in one way or another from doing what they thought was the right thing.
Does it mean that if you were a believer in any of these what are now recognized phenomena before the Church accepted these phenomena as valid , that you have erred and therefore salvation is denied you.

Countless people went to Padre Pio to ask for healing and or his advice before the Church recognized him. How many people prayed at the grotto before the Church recognized the phenomena at Lourdes. Does this mean that those people who believed before that belief was blessed by the Catholic Church are they all condemned . These are examples of Christians exercising their free will to see if something is of GOD.

Please , do not misunderstand me , I am not comparing ATE Salve and the BNP members to these very holy people . I am just giving examples.

Full sacramental union can only be achieved when all the bans and interdicts against BNP is lifted , and there seems to be a
momentum towards that.
That is my fervent hope
Until then may May God bless us all with a bounteous new year.
 
Kay_Cee said:
Since when is it up to ***us ***to judge a movement? Can you show me where Jesus gave us that authority?

*That’s the point I was trying to make , Judgment is reserved for God and God alone If you ask to look at the official letters and archives in the San Bernardino diocese .all you will find are papers pertaining to the interdict , there are no official minutes that include a dialogue with the BNP , that they reached out to us and informed us about what was wrong with movement.
All you see is an official interdict letter , that’s it. We were judged and interdicted without even an official explanation. *

You’re reading an awful lot into what I said. Can you show where I discussed the BNP? I made a general statement about leaders obeying the God-given authorities over them.

And I am sure Mother Teresa, Padre Pio, and Saint Bernadette were the first to submit to such authority.

I thought this thread was about the BNP , if you read the personal history of the above three people you will find where they defied the local church authorities and continued to do what was God’s plan ,especially St. Bernadette, she was prohibited from going to site where the Blessed Virgin appeared,but she went anyway.

We are to submit to those God has given authority over us. Period. I might remind you God gave the authority to bind and loose to all the Apostles and that they passed this authority to their successors. If BNP wants to appeal to the Vatican, it has that right. In the meantime, its leaders should obey the local bishop.

Let me ask you this: What gives these people the right to defy the bishop’s authority? Can you show me anything in Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition that endows them with that right?
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"]he BNP is a worldwide organization , if we are accepted and have the full support of a cardinal and bishops in some countries does that trump the interdict in some places. I do not know , I have asked that question myself . A bishop presided over a Holy Mass commemorating the 40 years that the BNP has existed last March 2008 at BNP Ontario facility. You tell me which
bishop has it right . The one who bans us or the one who helps us.
 
All I can say right now is let it play along and we will find out truth. Judging things by hearsay is dangerous.
 
That’s the point I was trying to make , Judgment is reserved for God and God alone If you ask to look at the official letters and archives in the San Bernardino diocese .all you will find are papers pertaining to the interdict , there are no official minutes that include a dialogue with the BNP , that they reached out to us and informed us about what was wrong with movement.
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And how does God communicate his judgment to the people? Through *whom *exactly?
All you see is an official interdict letter , that’s it. We were judged and interdicted without even an official explanation.
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I can see why you think that’s unfair, but it’s beside the point. The bishop has made a pronouncement. From what I’ve read in this thread, the movement’s leaders, instead of submitting to his authority, are openly defying him. Have you stopped to think what kind of message that sends?
believer112 said:
"]*he BNP is a worldwide organization , if we are accepted and have the full support of a cardinal and bishops in some countries does that trump the interdict in some places. I do not know , I have asked that question myself . A bishop presided over a Holy Mass commemorating the 40 years that the BNP has existed last March 2008 at BNP Ontario facility. You tell me which *
bishop has it right . The one who bans us or the one who helps us.
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Let me ask you this: Is it okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese?

It’s a simple yes/no question, so please answer either yes or no.

And please note: the question is not about the BNP. It’s about whether or not it’s okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese, regardless of what the subject matter is.
 
Kay_Cee said:
And how does God communicate his judgment to the people? Through *whom *exactly?

*I answered this already , the final say resides with His Holiness
Benedict XVI , he is the Vicar of Christ on earth, When he renders a decision ex cathedra , He is the only inerrant source.
*

I can see why you think that’s unfair, but it’s beside the point. The bishop has made a pronouncement. From what I’ve read in this thread, the movement’s leaders, instead of submitting to his authority, are openly defying him. Have you stopped to think what kind of message that sends?

Can you tell me how we are defying the diocese ? Give me an example . IF you read the letter it says the the BNP is banned .
This means that we are interdicted . An interdict means that no priest or religious in the diocese can render us or give us the Holy Sacraments. We also cannot use the diocese facilities . That’s it.
Those are the only things that the bishop can restrict in an interdict.
Since the Catholic priests who give say Holy Mass weekly at the BNP House of Prayer do so with the authority and blessing of their own bishops , how are we defying anyone?

Let me ask you this: Is it okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese?

It’s a simple yes/no question, so please answer either yes or no.

And please note: the question is not about the BNP. It’s about whether or not it’s okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese, regardless of what the subject matter is.
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*The 1983 Code of canon Law does not give a bishop power over lay ministries. And here are some facts that might surprise you.
  1. The BNP is not a separate church , it is a lay ministry that preaches the Good News worldwide.
  2. The BNP has no dogma or doctrine , we use Catholic dogma and doctrine .
  3. The BNP has not ordained any priests,nuns or any other religious.
The bishop is and has the power over the parishioners and the actions of the Church in his diocese, but what if the topic ,like the BNP is not covered by Church doctrine ( as far as I know no Papal Bull or Letters have been issued regarding the BNP). So , I will leave you with this thought , It is easy to say what the BNP stands for is false . But have you ever considered what the consequences are if is true.
*
 
I think that one does well to look to Saint Padre Pio as a model for obedience. His bishop had some severe flaws, but he was the bishop, and Padre Pio obeyed him. He knew that success depended on obedience, not action. So long as he obeyed, God would take care of getting the task done.
 
believer112 said:
The 1983 Code of canon Law does not give a bishop power over lay ministries. And here are some facts that might surprise you.
1. The BNP is not a separate church , it is a lay ministry that preaches the Good News worldwide.
2. The BNP has no dogma or doctrine , we use Catholic dogma and doctrine .
3. The BNP has not ordained any priests,nuns or any other religious.
**
The bishop is and has the power over the parishioners and the actions of the Church in his diocese, but what if the topic ,like the BNP is not covered by Church doctrine ( as far as I know no Papal Bull or Letters have been issued regarding the BNP). So , I will leave you with this thought , It is easy to say what the BNP stands for is false . But have you ever considered what the consequences are if is true.
**
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If an organization is banned from operating within the diocese, yet continues to operate within the diocese (and isn’t Ontario part of the diocese?), then aren’t they defying the ban?

You aren’t getting my point at all. It’s not about what the BNP stands for. It’s about disobedience to a bishop. As you say, he has authority over the parishoners in his diocese. If he bans an organiation there, any organization, the members of his diocese should not participate in it.

So I would appreciate an answer to my question: Is it okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese? Yes or no?
 
I am a Roman Catholic.

My first exposure to the BNP is this forum.

The BNP seems to be a well focused lay ministry.

One Bishop is not the sole interpreter of Catholic Doctrine. In fact, I remember Mother Angelica (EWTN) having a very difficult time with many of the bishops on her Pilgrimage of Faith.

The Pope was also disappointed in decisions made by many of the US Bishops on the handling of our recent scandal.

As I read here, there are some bishops who are in favor of the BNP,

I don’t see any violation of Church Doctrine here, unless someone takes some Biblical phrase and twists it to use against the BNP.

They seem to possess an excitement and fervor about our faith that I believe the Church needs more of.

Thanks for letting me express my views.

Bob
 
Kay_Cee said:
If an organization is banned from operating within the diocese, yet continues to operate within the diocese (and isn’t Ontario part of the diocese?), then aren’t they defying the ban?

You aren’t getting my point at all. It’s not about what the BNP stands for. It’s about disobedience to a bishop. As you say, he has authority over the parishoners in his diocese. If he bans an organiation there, any organization, the members of his diocese should not participate in it.

So I would appreciate an answer to my question: Is it okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese? Yes or no?
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*You seem fixated on the word " ban" or banned. What the bishop did was issue an an interdict . The interdict does two things only.
  1. It basically prohibits all the priests and religious in the diocese and associated with the diocese from giving the BNP
    sacraments or services .
  2. It prohibits the BNP from using any facilities that the diocese owns . This includes parish halls , schools, gyms… etc…
THAT’s IT.
It does not render a judgment whether the BNP is good or bad , because as far as I know , there are no Papal letters or bulls regarding the BNP.

It does not prohibit the BNP from continuing it mission, holding retreat classes or building any facilities in the diocese. Because that is covered by free will and the First ammendment of the US Constitution.

Let me give you an example . the recent cultural phenomena about Harry Potter caused an alarm in some conservative circles because they were afraid it promoted Wicca , witchcraft and other pagan releigions.
There was some hue and cry to ban the books from the Catholic libraries and schools. Some dioceses actually did enact a ban. But, as far as I know a lot of Catholics continued to read CK Rowling’s books . Does that mean that they condemned or that they commited a grievious sin?*The answer is NO.
This is an execise of free will and since there is no official Catholic dogma or doctrine about Harry Potter , any Catholic can continue to read the books about him.
 
I’m still not seeing an answer to my question. Is it okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese?

It’s a simple yes or no question. You only need answer either yes or no.
 
Kay_Cee said:
I’m still not seeing an answer to my question. Is it okay to defy a bishop’s authority over his diocese?

It’s a simple yes or no question. You only need answer either yes or no.
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Before I answer this question . we need to define terms ,
In what way do you see defiance in what the BNP does ?
Where in Canon Law and even in the Cathechism does it give the bishop absolute authority over a non-profit Catholic oriented lay ministry ?
Answer me those 2 questions and I will answer yours.
 
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