Back, and questions

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I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):

If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?

I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)

To people I was rude to: Sorry, I really do not try to be rude, even though I am. None are perfect, except one, I think we all know who that is 😉
 
I am not a catholic yet, but I don’t understand a thing you just said.

I have a good relationship with the priest at my church.

He did not tell me I am going to hell.

Maybe you went to a weird church to hear that?
 
I cut this from a post a made answering the very same question a week or two ago:

The answer to your question is actually fairly simple, although the official wording requires a SUBSTANTIAL explanation. We believe that “there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”. BUT… if you have “invincible ignorance” that the Catholic Church is the one true church, you will have a chance at salvation based on the amount of truth that you understand. Note that this does NOT mean, no matter what it looks like, that ONLY Catholics are saved!

So, in practical terms, what does that mean? First, it means that those that fully understand Catholicism and reject it probably don’t have a chance at salvation. This would include anyone who was Catholic and left the church and was accurately taught what the church really believes. (Now, if they had been raised only nominally Catholic by a family that didn’t really go to church much, they might not actually understand doctrine that well. There is a chance they could qualify as ignorant.) This would also include most of the first couple of generations of Protestants, who fully understood Catholicism and rejected it’s theology. According to Catholic theology, they are probably also doomed (although ultimately, we recognize that only God knows for sure. The church can proclaim that certain saints are in heaven, but never proclaims definitively whether someone is in hell.)

HOWEVER, most modern Christians that grow up Protestant probably do not “fully” understand Catholicism (since they really aren’t exposed to it, and what they learn is often inaccurate), and so there is a good possibility that they may be “invincibly ignorant”, in which case, they will be judged by what they understand. They would still have the benefit of many proper Christian teachings (those that mirror Catholic teaching), though they would be undermined by a few incorrect ones (which may or may not be important ones, depending on the denomination). Clearly, there are Protestants in heaven. (Of course, if they later studied Catholicism and truly understood it, and STILL rejected it, then they would likely be doomed.)

Non-Christians very well might be “invincibly ignorant”, but have even less understanding of Catholic Christianity than Protestants, and so, it would still be possible, but perhaps increasingly unlikely that they would merit heaven. They would have to do their best to follow God by following natural law, and recognize that there was some higher power. In all of these cases, it seems likely that the further your belief differs from Catholicism, the less likely it is that you could obtain salvation because it would become increasingly difficult to know HOW to do so, although there is the possibility for EVERYONE, and surely there are non-Christians in heaven as well.

The biggest problem for all of these groups is that they lack the benefit of a sacramental confession, so if they EVER committed a mortal sin, about the only way it could be removed would be through an Act of Perfect Contrition, meaning they would have to be truly sorry, NOT just because they were afraid of hell, but because they were sorry that they offended God. (Or, if they were baptized in the Trinitarian formula and never committed a mortal sin, they would go to heaven, since baptism removes original sin.) If one isn’t even Christian, you can see how this might be extremely difficult. How would a non-Christian even KNOW what an Act of Perfect Contrition was? (There is also the possibility that they could make a “baptism of desire”, like the thief on the cross.) Thus, when someone outside of the Catholic faith DOES make it to heaven, it is STILL “through (the teachings preserved in) the Catholic Church.”
 
I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):

If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?

I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)

To people I was rude to: Sorry, I really do not try to be rude, even though I am. None are perfect, except one, I think we all know who that is 😉
The RCC does NOT believe you burn in hell, automatically, if you aren’t a member of the RCC. The church does hold to the belief that “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church”. That is the line that probably will give you the most problems. I’m sure someone much smarter than me can give you a better explanation, but here is my strictly laymen try.

Being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost makes you an “official” Christian. That doesn’t mean you are Catholic. The church teaches that every Christian receives salvation through it, while not all Christians are fully in communion with it. The church believes and has always taught it has the fullness of the faith, handed down from the Apostles, whether written(Scripture) or by word of mouth(2 Thes. 2:15).

Most sane Catholics would agree that Protestants have the truth(Jesus Christ), but not the fullness or whole truth that was given by the Apostles to the church. Protestants look at it as “extra baggage” when they see all the extra stuff Catholics do in their spirituallity. Catholics cry “over-simplification” when looking at the few things that are required of most Protestants.

In closing, just like most Protestant denominations in the world, the RCC is convinced it is correct in it’s teachings. So, maybe those outside are saved, maybe they aren’t. You would like to think any follower of Christ is. In that regard, Catholics and Protestants are the same in my eyes.
 
I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):

If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?

I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)

To people I was rude to: Sorry, I really do not try to be rude, even though I am. None are perfect, except one, I think we all know who that is 😉
Welcome back! The Catholic Church has never proclaimed anyone to be in hell, since it is impossible for man to know the state of the human heart at the moment of the Father’s call.

You are considered a separated brother in Christ - but a brother still. Since the very nature of man is disunity, we have fallen apart across the centuries. As the world comes closer and closer to the end, we must ponder this separation and petition the Lord to call us together, as He intended.
John 17:11 “I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.”
John 17:20-22 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:”
The way we do this is to explain the faith. As to Baptists, I cannot fathom the “believer’s baptism”. Maybe you could enlighten me on that. All I know is that the Catholic teaching is right from scripture:
1 Peter 3:20-22 “who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”
There are Baptist converts to Catholicism here who can explain what lead them to the Catholic Church. They have more “street cred” than I do. Many have been through several different denominations before settling home.

May Christ’s peace always be with you.
 
I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):
Great to have you back. I come and go, myself!
If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?
No. As Catholics, we believe that God and His Holy Spirit work even outside the physical boundaries of the Catholic Church. It is a part of our theology.
I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)
Absolutely true! This baptism is completely valid as far as the Catholic Church is concerned.

In order to understand the Catholic position on this issue, you need to know what the word “catholic” means. It is greek for “universal.” Simply put, we believe that there is truly only ONE church and that everyone who is baptised becomes a part of it.

1 Corinthians 12:13 explains the “baptised into the Catholic Church” part of your question with regard to the one church thing I just mentioned. One BODY = One CHURCH.
To people I was rude to: Sorry, I really do not try to be rude, even though I am. None are perfect, except one, I think we all know who that is 😉
I didn’t know that you were rude! I’m ok with what you have, so far. I hope my answers help your questions.

Subrosa
 
I see what your saying.

I do not think it very nice to believe people to be ignorant just cause htey don’t see a certain way, I honestly do not think I can ever be Catholic, cause their are so many things that the RCC teaches that is stuff I would never go under.

Sola Scripture, which I believe is a person’s own interpretation of the bible, right?
 
I cut this from a post a made answering the very same question a week or two ago:

The answer to your question is actually fairly simple, although the official wording requires a SUBSTANTIAL explanation. We believe that “there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”. BUT… if you have “invincible ignorance” that the Catholic Church is the one true church, you will have a chance at salvation based on the amount of truth that you understand. Note that this does NOT mean, no matter what it looks like, that ONLY Catholics are saved!

So, in practical terms, what does that mean? First, it means that those that fully understand Catholicism and reject it probably don’t have a chance at salvation. This would include anyone who was Catholic and left the church and was accurately taught what the church really believes. (Now, if they had been raised only nominally Catholic by a family that didn’t really go to church much, they might not actually understand doctrine that well. There is a chance they could qualify as ignorant.) This would also include most of the first couple of generations of Protestants, who fully understood Catholicism and rejected it’s theology. According to Catholic theology, they are probably also doomed (although ultimately, we recognize that only God knows for sure. The church can proclaim that certain saints are in heaven, but never proclaims definitively whether someone is in hell.)

HOWEVER, most modern Christians that grow up Protestant probably do not “fully” understand Catholicism (since they really aren’t exposed to it, and what they learn is often inaccurate), and so there is a good possibility that they may be “invincibly ignorant”, in which case, they will be judged by what they understand. They would still have the benefit of many proper Christian teachings (those that mirror Catholic teaching), though they would be undermined by a few incorrect ones (which may or may not be important ones, depending on the denomination). Clearly, there are Protestants in heaven. (Of course, if they later studied Catholicism and truly understood it, and STILL rejected it, then they would likely be doomed.)

Non-Christians very well might be “invincibly ignorant”, but have even less understanding of Catholic Christianity than Protestants, and so, it would still be possible, but perhaps increasingly unlikely that they would merit heaven. They would have to do their best to follow God by following natural law, and recognize that there was some higher power. In all of these cases, it seems likely that the further your belief differs from Catholicism, the less likely it is that you could obtain salvation because it would become increasingly difficult to know HOW to do so, although there is the possibility for EVERYONE, and surely there are non-Christians in heaven as well.

The biggest problem for all of these groups is that they lack the benefit of a sacramental confession, so if they EVER committed a mortal sin, about the only way it could be removed would be through an Act of Perfect Contrition, meaning they would have to be truly sorry, NOT just because they were afraid of hell, but because they were sorry that they offended God. (Or, if they were baptized in the Trinitarian formula and never committed a mortal sin, they would go to heaven, since baptism removes original sin.) If one isn’t even Christian, you can see how this might be extremely difficult. How would a non-Christian even KNOW what an Act of Perfect Contrition was? (There is also the possibility that they could make a “baptism of desire”, like the thief on the cross.) Thus, when someone outside of the Catholic faith DOES make it to heaven, it is STILL “through (the teachings preserved in) the Catholic Church.”
Succintly put, Professor.

Thank You.

Now if you can just simplify it to ABC format for those who may have missed or ignored the completeness of your explanation, this thread may be saved from…‘unnecessary roughness’!

:cool:
 
I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):

If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?
The Catholic Church does not condemned people who are not Catholic to go to hell.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)
The Catholic Church believes that the proper form of Baptism is “I baptize you, in the Name of the Father, and Of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit.” The Catholic Church recognizes Non-Catholic Christian baptism in the Trinitarian Baptisal Formula. The CC does not recognize the baptism of the dead by the Mormons, nor the Oneness Penecostals who baptized in Jesus Name.
To people I was rude to: Sorry, I really do not try to be rude, even though I am. None are perfect, except one, I think we all know who that is 😉
No problem.
 
The Catholic Church does not condemned people who are not Catholic to go to hell.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
The Catechism also states:

**181 **“Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

Doesn’t this seem contradictory?
 
I see what your saying.

I do not think it very nice to believe people to be ignorant just cause htey don’t see a certain way, I honestly do not think I can ever be Catholic, cause their are so many things that the RCC teaches that is stuff I would never go under.

Sola Scripture, which I believe is a person’s own interpretation of the bible, right?
I didn’t think, 20 years ago, that I would even be Catholic either! I grew up across the street from a Catholic Parish, but had no Christian upbringing. After baptism, the Lord slowly revealed the truth to me. Only two years ago He erased my last objections to church teaching on Mary. It came during a bible study with a Dominican priest who had an encyclopedic knowledge of scripture. If you have decided to love Christ above all else, don’t be surprised when you see where He leads you.

As to sola scriptura, yes the Apostle Peter prohibited private interpretation. See 2 Peter 1:19-20 KJV. Sola scriptura has lead to certain Evangelicals denying the need for baptism into Christ! This is unbelievable, since it is so plain from Christ’s own words in scripture.

As always, you are a brother in Christ and we shall look forward to any and all conversations, in the name of unity.

Christ’s peace.
 
I see what your saying.
Good! It ain’t hard to see after all, is it?
I do not think it very nice to believe people to be ignorant just cause htey don’t see a certain way,
We see eye to eye on this one, brother!
I honestly do not think I can ever be Catholic, cause their are so many things that the RCC teaches that is stuff I would never go under.
It is difficult to go against things that you have been taught. But, keep in mind that God may have something else in mind. It is important to do God’s will over your own. This is standard teaching in all of Christianity. Whatever you do, don’t let your own will get in the way of His. He may be leading you somewhere. Pray on it, brother. Pray on it!
Sola Scripture, which I believe is a person’s own interpretation of the bible, right?
Ok, I don’t know what you are trying to say here, but I’m going to go with my thoughts on this…

Sola Scriptura is a foundation of the Reformation (along with sola fide). This says that the bible alone is the sole source of authority.

In the Catholic Church we have four sources: The Bible, Sacred Tradition, Church Councils, and the Pope. All must be in agreement with each other, either directly or indirectly.

Believe it or not, it is a very biblical position. Let’s look…

The Bible…I don’t think that there is an issue here.

Sacred Tradition…2 Thes 2:15, 1 Cor 11:2

Church Councils…Acts 15 (the whole chapter)

The Pope (Successor of Peter)…Matthew 16:15-19

Careful study of these passages will reveal to you what is being spoken of here.

Subrosa
 
I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):

If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?

I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)

To people I was rude to: Sorry, I really do not try to be rude, even though I am. None are perfect, except one, I think we all know who that is 😉
Hey dude, welcome back. The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants (or anybody else) goes to hell for lack of being Catholic. The saying “no salvation outside the church,” has been abused by both Catholics and Protestants alike. It goes back to St. Cyprius, around 100 AD, when there was only one Christian community; i.e., the Catholic (universal) Church. It means there is no salvation outside the “Body of Christ” and Protestants ARE part of the Body of Christ. Virtually all of Christ’s teachings come from “love your neighbor as yourself,” and even non-Christians who do their best to live their lives in that manner are “implicit” Christians and therefore included in the Body of Christ. Of course we believe that it’s easier to live your life in that manner if you’re Catholic, go to Mass and pay attention. Some of the finest people I’ve known aren’t even Christians, but their deportment and the manner in which they serve their neighbors and communities are perfect examples of what Jesus taught us. Believing that such people, or anybody else, would go to hell for simply not being Catholic (or Christian) violates even common sense.
 
I do not think it very nice to believe people to be ignorant just cause they don’t see a certain way,
Ignorance, or being ignorant, is not meant as an insult in this context.

Commonly used definition of ignorant -
  • uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field;
  • unaware because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Ignorance -
Ignorance is lack of knowledge about a thing in a being capable of knowing. Fundamentally speaking and with regard to a given object ignorance is the outcome of the limitations of our intellect or of the obscurity of the matter itself.
Invincible ignorance -
Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable.
 
The saying “no salvation outside the church,” has been abused by both Catholics and Protestants alike. It goes back to St. Cyprius, around 100 AD, when there was only one Christian community; i.e., the Catholic (universal) Church. It means there is no salvation outside the “Body of Christ” and Protestants ARE part of the Body of Christ.
So is this statement in the Catechism speaking of the Catholic Church or the Body of Christ as Mother?

**181 **“Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).
 
I see what your saying.

I do not think it very nice to believe people to be ignorant just cause htey don’t see a certain way, I honestly do not think I can ever be Catholic, cause their are so many things that the RCC teaches that is stuff I would never go under.

Sola Scripture, which I believe is a person’s own interpretation of the bible, right?
Being called ignorant is not necessarily a put-down, or a bad thing. It’s just a truth. For example, I’m ignorant about car engine repair. I fully admit it. It doesn’t mean I’m stupid, and it isn’t an insult. It simply means that I currently don’t know how to fix a car engine. If I were to attempt to repair a car engine right now, I probably wouldn’t get very far. Sure, I could study on my own and check out some books, but beyond some basic repairs, I would likely have GREAT trouble repairing a badly damaged engine. “Ignorance” is used in much the same way in Catholicism. My ignorance doesn’t DOOM me from ever succeeding. It is theoretically possible that I might succeed on my own in learning enough to fix the engine, but it would be much more difficult, and far fewer people will succeed without the help of a professional repairman or a course on automotive repair.

Let me throw out a few questions for thought regarding your beliefs:
  1. In 1492, Christopher Columbus discovered America. Interestingly, this caused a huge crisis of faith in Europe at first. I’ll ask you the same question that Europeans asked back then. Why would God create two entire continents of human beings with absolutely NO chance of learning about Christianity until Christopher Columbus? Were all of the people born before Columbus created just to automatically go to hell? Now, here’s the trickier question… if some of them WERE able to be saved, do you think it was as easy and likely for them as it was for Christians in Europe? Why or why not? If it was more difficult, was it because they were “ignorant” of Christianity?
  2. The Jehovah’s Witnesses often refer to themselves as Christian, but many Christians don’t consider them to be. They do not believe in the Trinity, they believe that Jesus was a physical incarnation of the Archangel Michael, and that only 144,000 people on the entire earth will be saved, although some will be reborn on earth to live eternally as we do now, but never see God. For the wicked, there is no hell, but simple non-existence, and they believe that Jesus/Michael has already returned, and that the end of the world will be in their lifetime. For that reason, they give NOTHING to charity (why, when we’ll all be dead in a few years?), they are not encouraged to marry, and because of prohibitions they find in the Bible, they do not allow for lifesaving blood transfusions (many people, including children, have died as a result of this rule). My question is… do these differences matter? Is it no big deal, or do you think they are on the wrong path? Are they “ignorant” of false teachings? Would their outright DENIAL of the divinity of Christ as a part of their faith affect their salvation?
 
So is this statement in the Catechism speaking of the Catholic Church or the Body of Christ as Mother?

**181 **“Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).
See paragraphs 830 onward.
 
OK, but I’m still confused. Are you saying that someone who is, for example, a Baptist is part of the Mother Church?
I’m not really sure what you mean by a “mother church,” but Baptists are part of the professing Christian community and share in the promises of Christ, see paragraph 838.

The word “church” means either a specific Christian community or all of Christendom. The statement you quoted by St. Cyprian dates from a time when there was only one Church. The use of the word “mother” relates to the manner in which the church teaches and nurtures faith and by so doing brings the believer to the Father. Put bluntly, if nobody taught us about God we would have no way of knowing Him as our Father.
 
I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):

If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?

I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)

To people I was rude to: Sorry, I really do not try to be rude, even though I am. None are perfect, except one, I think we all know who that is 😉
I have just stumbled on this thread and after reading Rolltide’s response to your question decided to make a comment. Rolltide’s response is accurate but we will probably have to deal with a whole lot of Devil’s Advocates coming on and making their remarks.

I have to say that in all the years I have found the CC to be benevolent and gracious. I have never heard a priest, teacher or anyone for that matter make comments such as “He is condemned” “She is not saved” - things like that. God is the judge.

I believe we will find Athiests in heaven. I have heard of a Muslim who made great charitable acts of kindness. No it is not for us to judge and God is full of surprises.

Jesus did say “seek and you shall find”…

👍
 
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