Bahá'í

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Can you be more specific about “radiance”?

My understanding is that Jesus did not “radiate” anything. In fact, he had a very, very difficult time convincing most of his contemporaries that he was anything except a no-name carpenter from a hick town.
Bahá’u’lláh’s Arrival at 'Akká

Know thou that upon Our arrival at this Spot, We chose to designate it as the ‘Most Great Prison.’ Though previously subjected in another land (Tihrán) to chains and fetters, We yet refused to call it by that name. Say: Ponder thereon, O ye endued with understanding!

One of the fascinating features of the life of Bahá’u’lláh is the contrast between His glory and majesty born of God, and the imprisonment and abasement to which He was subjected by His enemies. We may observe with amazement that Bahá’u’lláh, the Supreme Manifestation of God, One who held the powers of earth and heaven in His hands, the movement of whose pen could revolutionize the lives of all men, whose words were endowed with such potency as to subdue His adversaries; such a Being submitted Himself with utter resignation to those who had arisen with all their might and authority to take His life and extinguish the light of His Cause.

Bahá’u’lláh, quoted by Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 185.

He did not exercise His God-given spiritual powers to stay the hands of the oppressors persecuting Him. He could have–as He Himself attests in many of His Tablets–conquered the hearts of His enemies with the utterance of one word, had He so wished. But this was not to be. For God has created man and has given him free will to choose between good and evil, to follow the Truth or tread the path of error

If the Manifestations of God were to reveal fully the signs and tokens of their power, if they were to overwhelm and destroy their persecutors through the force of their spiritual might, such a revelation would run counter to the principle of free will which God has bestowed upon man. Because no one, whether good or bad, deserving or undeserving, when confronted with the manifold evidences of the overwhelming power of the Manifestation of God, would have any choice but to acknowledge His authority and accept the authenticity of His message. In such a case man would be reduced to a mere puppet who loses control over his actions, and those who have no spiritual merit would become equal to those who have.

This is why the Manifestations of God hide their powers from the eyes of men in general and occasionally (and to a certain extent) reveal them to a few who are endowed with spiritual qualities. For instance, Christ enabled some of His disciples to witness the signs of His glory, but the great majority of the people in the Holy Land, their religious leaders and their rulers, were not affected by these. He did not use His spiritual ascendancy to prevent His own crucifixion.

The powers of the Manifestation of God remain hidden behind the veil of His human temple. He lives like the rest of the people and is subject to all the limitations which this imposes on Him. He has to eat and sleep in order to survive. He feels pain if He is afflicted with sufferings, He becomes ill at times and eventually dies. Indeed, He comes as if camouflaged by His mortal frame. And this prevents most of His contemporaries from recognizing His station. His actions also prove to be great barriers and stumbling blocks for those who come into contact with Him. The way He lives is similar to the life of His countrymen. He speaks the same language, obeys the same laws, and practises the same customs. He does not appear to know the future, has to be informed of the news of the day, and even some of His teachings and words may cast doubt into the minds of many who are veiled from His glory. Those intellectuals and men of learning who are spiritually blind, and who weigh His utterances with their own standards, will often find fault with His sayings and reject His message outright.

(Cont. below)
 
All these human characteristics which the Manifestation of God displays act as a thick cloud hiding the splendours of the light of His Revelation from the eyes of men. For He does not reveal Himself in His naked glory. Only those with spiritual eyes may penetrate through and witness the radiance of the Sun of Truth behind this cloud. Man has to make an effort in order to find the truth. This is an irrevocable law of creation, and through it man’s free will is preserved. This free will is bestowed upon man by God. He has given him authority to rule over this world. Man has the power of life and death in his hands. He can lead a peaceful life and build a united world, or he can kindle the fire of enmity and bring destruction and death to great multitudes. And although God has sent His Messengers from time to time to show the way to the human race, and has thrown light upon its path, yet He has left man free to choose for himself. In each Dispensation a considerable number of people have been led to follow the path of truth by their own free will, whereas the majority of the peoples have rejected the call of God and followed the dictates of their own selves.

With this basic principle in mind that the Manifestations of God hide their glory from the eyes of men, we can appreciate more clearly the manner in which they have appeared and acted among the peoples of the world. We observe that they have always submitted themselves to their enemies, and yet through the power of God they have succeeded in firmly establishing the foundation of their Cause among men. The sufferings which were inflicted on Bahá’u’lláh by His enemies throughout His forty-year ministry and the forbearance and resignation with which He endured these, demonstrate this principle. This becomes especially apparent in 'Akká where those in authority inflicted on Him tribulations more severe than at any other period in His ministry.

Although Bahá’u’lláh submitted Himself to a hostile enemy who made Him a prisoner and condemned Him to solitary confinement for the rest of His life, yet no one could rob Him of His majesty and glory. Even those who had no spiritual eyes and who were blind to His divine authority were forcibly struck by the outward manifestations of His eminent and august personality.

As with other incidents in His life when people came face to face with Him, not one of the officials accompanying Bahá’u’lláh on His journey to 'Akká, nor others who either in the course of duty or for other reasons came into His presence, could fail to recognize His greatness. One such was a young man by the name of Constantine, a Christian, who went aboard the ship at Alexandria in Egypt and attained His presence. This young man was one of the characters in an important incident during Bahá’u’lláh’s journey to 'Akká."

If you wish I can relate to you the story of Constantine, but I think the above passage describes very clearly the “radiance” of Jesus and Bahaullah as being from the same source.

I hope this is clear now PR? 🙂
 
Not based on your first criterion.

What differences do you see?
PR There is a difference between a real hundred dollar bill and a cheap counterfeit, right? In simple terms, it is like that, except that the counterfeit “prophets”, such as Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, Jones, etc are not even as close. When you read the words of Moon, for example, it is not comparable in the least to the words of Jesus or Baha’u’llah.
For Muslims, the “verses” of God in the Quran are sufficient proofs that the words are from God. The Bab stated similarly to His interrogators that His verses were sufficient as proofs, inasmuch as they were in-differentiated from the verses sent down by Muhammad. The process of Revelation was automatic, without thought or hesitation. Baha’u’llah wrote the Kitab-i-Iqan (The Book of Certitude) in two days, without pause, reflection, or reference.

“Thou knowest full well that We perused not the books which men possess and We acquired not the learning current amongst them, and yet whenever We desire to quote the sayings of the learned and of the wise, presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that which hath appeared in the world and is revealed in the Holy Books and Scriptures. Thus do We set down in writing that which the eye perceiveth. Verily His knowledge encompasseth the earth and the heavens.”
 
Can you be more specific about “radiance”?

My understanding is that Jesus did not “radiate” anything. In fact, he had a very, very difficult time convincing most of his contemporaries that he was anything except a no-name carpenter from a hick town.
It is true that most men are “veiled” from beholding the Beauty of the Messengers of God and fail to recognize Him. Even as Jesus, before his crucifixion said:
“Behold ye not the Son of Man seated upon the right hand of power and might?”
His persecutors did not behold His glory, while Peter (a simple fisherman) fell to his knees and said: “My Lord and my God!”
Only those who had (spiritual) eyes “saw” Him as a Manifestation of God, while the learned divines were veiled by their learning, too full of them"selves" to behold the face of their Lord.
“The learned and the wise have for long years striven and failed to attain the presence of the All-Glorious; they have spent their lives in search of Him, yet did not behold the beauty of His countenance.”
The Persian Hidden Words, 22

“Ye shall be hindered from loving Me and souls shall be perturbed as they make mention of Me. For minds cannot grasp Me nor hearts contain Me.”
The Arabic Hidden Words, 66
 
Maybe radiance is a form of manifesting…
Perhaps. 🤷

But what is the point of using “radiance” as a criterion for discerning if someone is a true prophet, if this “radiance” is not visible to all?

(And clearly this “radiance” as you define it was not visible to all. Hence the fact that most of the folks rejected Christ.)

It’s like saying to your husband, “Please go to the store and buy only the avocados with purple meat for my guacamole”… except you are unable to see which avocados actually have purple meat.

That’s not a very helpful criterion, right?
 
If you wish I can relate to you the story of Constantine, but I think the above passage describes very clearly the “radiance” of Jesus and Bahaullah as being from the same source.
I am sorry that you took the trouble to write all of that, but it was irrelevant to our discussion.

I didn’t ask how one could discern if the “radiance” of Jesus and B come from the same source.

I asked how Jesus could have had this “radiance” as a criterion for discernment, when no one could actually see it?

(Please see my avocado analogy above.)

It does seem to be a very inutile criterion. One that could not exclude David Koresh or Joseph Smith. In fact, it could be used very easily to include them.
 
It is true that most men are “veiled” from beholding the Beauty of the Messengers of God and fail to recognize Him.
Egg-zactly!!

So it seems to be a totally useless criterion, does it not, to say that we know a true prophet from a false one because of the radiance that he projects?

Or are you in agreement with Servant’s assertion that a true prophet will have a radiance that is visible?
 
So PR, are you saying that to a person today, reading about the life led by Jesus Christ, there is no difference that can be discerned, to the life of David Koresh?

The deeds carried out by Jesus’ Person is no different to the deeds of Koresh?

Are there currently examples of Koresh’s life, anecdotal stories, being read in thousands of schools globally, as a model by which we should live our lives by?

Yes, to some people, AT THE TIME, this was veiled from their eyes, for whatever reason, but the evidence of uniqueness is clear as daylight to those who have an ounce of fairmindedness, no??
 
So PR, are you saying that to a person today, reading about the life led by Jesus Christ, there is no difference that can be discerned, to the life of David Koresh?
Let’s just deal with your first criterion, Servant. “Radiance”.

How is it that you use “radiance” to distinguish between DK and Jesus?

It does appear that it is a criterion that is absolutely useless. If one can’t see this “radiance” visibly. then it can’t be used to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.

Are we agreed, at least, on this?
 
But PR, my first criterion wasn’t “radiance”, it was the “Person of the Manifestation of God”, go back and have a look 🙂

I think your getting stuck on one word rather than grasping the concept.

If you answer the questions I posted just above, it will go a long way in helping us look at the same page 🙂
 
But PR, my first criterion wasn’t “radiance”, it was the “Person of the Manifestation of God”, go back and have a look 🙂

I think your getting stuck on one word rather than grasping the concept.

If you answer the questions I posted just above, it will go a long way in helping us look at the same page 🙂
But that is a tautology, Servant.

“I will know that someone is a prophet when he does things that are prophet-like” is what you are saying.

This is not elucidating or enlightening whatsoever.

Criteria must be objective, visible and easily demarcated. Your first one is none of that.

But let’s just move on to your criterion #2. What is that?
 
PR, there is so much to discuss and explore in criterion 1 that it would be foolish to gloss over it. Are we here to explore some theological concepts together to deepen our knowledge to affirm our faith in God?

…or are we here to approach this subject superficially for the purposes of attritional resistance and one-upmanship?

I personally consider it godly to delve into the lives of Gods Chosen Representatives to find means by which we can share with others the delights of their uniqueness.

I would therefore truly appreciate you study the life of Jesus and then study the life of David Koresh and point out how they differ, and what aspects of Jesus’ life would an OBJECTIVE observer see as unique?

One such aspect, I would propose is Jesus’ intense suffering in the hands of the oppressors. What other aspects come to mind?
 
PR, there is so much to discuss and explore in criterion 1 that it would be foolish to gloss over it.
Oh. I misread you. I thought you were eager to move on. My bad.
Are we here to explore some theological concepts together to deepen our knowledge to affirm our faith in God?
👍
…or are we here to approach this subject superficially for the purposes of attritional resistance and one-upmanship?
I cannot answer for you here, Servant. Only you can know why you are here.

As I am a Forum Elder with over 20,000 posts it appears that my desire to dialogue is quite, well, obvious.
I would therefore truly appreciate you study the life of Jesus and then study the life of David Koresh and point out how they differ, and what aspects of Jesus’ life would an OBJECTIVE observer see as unique?
I think LOVE would be the great distinguisher here. One clearly manifested that by the most loving act ever–sacrificing his life in a painful, tortured death out of love for complete strangers.

That would exclude DK and all the other prophets–true or false, don’t you think?
One such aspect, I would propose is Jesus’ intense suffering in the hands of the oppressors.
Indeed. I would add that his death, the ultimate sacrifice, puts him above all the others.

Would you agree?
 
Egg-zactly!!

So it seems to be a totally useless criterion, does it not, to say that we know a true prophet from a false one because of the radiance that he projects?

Or are you in agreement with Servant’s assertion that a true prophet will have a radiance that is visible?
PR That which is intended by “radiance” infers an invisible (to physical eyes) characteristic, visible only to those “who have eyes to see”.

We are confined by the limitations of language, often attempting descriptions by allusion and metaphor. Even as Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.”, He was rejected by those who wanted an earthly kingdom in which He would defeat the Romans. Those who had insight, inner sight, recognized their Lord and entered His spiritual Kingdom of the hearts and souls.
 
PR That which is intended by “radiance” infers an invisible (to physical eyes) characteristic, visible only to those “who have eyes to see”.
Well, again, daler, this is a tautology that is not helpful at all. Or rather, it sets up a circular argument.

Believer: Is this guy a prophet?
Non-Believer:No, because I can’t see any radiance from him.
Believer: Well, he is a prophet but you just don’t have the right “glasses” to see the radiance.

Servant has proposed that he has a list of criteria that allows us to very easily discern who is a true prophet.

It appears right now that his first criterion is an obfuscation at worst and a tautology at best.
 
As I am a Forum Elder with over 20,000 posts it appears that my desire to dialogue is quite, well, obvious.

I think LOVE would be the great distinguisher here. One clearly manifested that by the most loving act ever–sacrificing his life in a painful, tortured death out of love for complete strangers.

That would exclude DK and all the other prophets–true or false, don’t you think?

Indeed. I would add that his death, the ultimate sacrifice, puts him above all the others.

Would you agree?
PR The sacrifice of Jesus for humanity is real, but so is the sacrifice of the Bab, executed by a firing squad of 750 soldiers on July 9, 1850, soon to be commemorated by Baha’is world wide.
That He was likewise tortured for the same reasons Jesus suffered, and Baha’u’llah as well, is their testimony before God, and for the benefit of all humanity. 20,000 of His followers have sacrificed their lives as a testimony to Their testimony.
“Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him…”

The sacrifices of these Prophets all have the same purpose, to uplift humanity from the slew of heedlessness that they may enter the Kingdom of God, which is a spiritual Kingdom, open to all who would recognize Their station, as Messengers of the same God, each of Whom speaks that which God directs Them to say according to the needs and capacity of those who hear Them.
 
Well, again, daler, this is a tautology that is not helpful at all. Or rather, it sets up a circular argument.

Believer: Is this guy a prophet?
Non-Believer:No, because I can’t see any radiance from him.
Believer: Well, he is a prophet but you just don’t have the right “glasses” to see the radiance.

Servant has proposed that he has a list of criteria that allows us to very easily discern who is a true prophet.

It appears right now that his first criterion is an obfuscation at worst and a tautology at best.
Then this circular argument was used as well by Jesus, for He repeatedly used the phrase “eyes to see”. His prescription for humanity was that indeed, we need the “right glasses” to have pure vision. “Lest ye be like one of these little ones, ye cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”
It is also true of our ability to “hear” the Words of God when they are recited to us:
‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

It was in fact the same arguments made by the Pharisees which blinded their eyes and, as Prophet Muhammad said, “They have thrust their fingers in their ears”

obfuscation and tautology?
 
Servant has proposed that he has a list of criteria that allows us to very easily discern who is a true prophet.

PR If I may ask you to read and ponder the following verses, they address the matter of recognition. I have limited the number of quotes to what is relevant. Thank you for your dialogue.

"The fourth Tajalli (Effulgence) is concerning Divinity, Godhead and the
like. Were a man of insight to direct his gaze towards the blessed,
the manifest Lote-Tree and its fruits, he would be so enriched
thereby as to be independent of aught else and to acknowledge
his belief in that which the Speaker on Sinai hath uttered from
the throne of Revelation.

O ’ Ali-Akbar ! Acquaint the people with the holy verses of thy
Lord and make known unto them His straight Path, His mighty
Announcement.

Say: O people, if ye judge fairly and equitably, ye will testify
to the truth of whatsoever hath streamed forth from the Most
Exalted Pen. If ye be of the people of the Bayan, the Persian
Bayan will guide you aright and will prove a sufficient testimony
unto you; and if ye be of the people of the Qur’an, ponder ye
upon the Revelation on Sinai and the Voice from the Bush which
came unto the Son of Tmran [Moses].

Gracious God! It was intended that at the time of the manifes-
tation of the One true God the faculty of recognizing Him would
have been developed and matured and would have reached its
culmination. However, it is now clearly demonstrated that in the
disbelievers this faculty hath remained undeveloped and hath,
indeed, degenerated.

O 'All! That which they accepted from the Bush they now
refuse to accept from Him Who is the Tree of the world of
existence. Say, O people of the Bayan, speak not according to
the dictates of passion and selfish desire. Most of the peoples of
the earth attest the truth of the blessed Word which hath come
forth from the Bush."

from the fourth Tajalli, Tablets of Baha’u’llah
 
A PR The sacrifice of Jesus for humanity is real, but so is the sacrifice of the Bab, executed by a firing squad of 750 soldiers on July 9, 1850, soon to be commemorated by Baha’is world wide.
Who was he sacrificing his life in exchange for?

Please do not refer me to a cite that explains the execution. I would just like a short synopsis in your own words.
That He was likewise tortured for the same reasons Jesus suffered, and Baha’u’llah as well, is their testimony before God, and for the benefit of all humanity.
Could you also explain this (in your own words)? How was he tortured so the sins of humanity could be atoned for?
 
Then this circular argument was used as well by Jesus, for He repeatedly used the phrase “eyes to see”. His prescription for humanity was that indeed, we need the “right glasses” to have pure vision. “Lest ye be like one of these little ones, ye cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

It is also true of our ability to “hear” the Words of God when they are recited to us:
‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

It was in fact the same arguments made by the Pharisees which blinded their eyes and, as Prophet Muhammad said, “They have thrust their fingers in their ears”

obfuscation and tautology?
If you could show me where Jesus said that this is a criterion for discerning a true prophet from a false one, that would be helpful.

Please note: it must say that Jesus has prescribed this as a way of discerning a true prophet from a false one.
 
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