Bahá'í

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by SteveVH
We call the supreme mover of all things, God. Do you believe in some sort of collective consciousness, a multitude of souls, as being God?

From the passage I quoted, it certainly seems that way, however I am certainly not in a position to make ontological statements about the “nature” of our lives in the spiritual realms. It truly is a mystery.

But I am speaking of the nature of God. Do you believe that God is a conglomeration of utterly pure, sanctified souls of human beings, or does he exist independently of everything else that exists, including human souls? I have seen both views presented in your statements. That is why I am confused as to what you believe.

 

[arthra]

If we’re still discussing the Baha’i Faith there are some succinct verses from the Writings on the topic of salvation:

*The world will pass away, and so will all the things whereat your hearts rejoice, or wherein ye pride yourselves before men. Cleanse the mirrors of your hearts from the dross of the world and all that is therein, that they may reflect the resplendent light of God. This, indeed, shall enable you to dispense with all save God, and to attain unto the good pleasure of your Lord, the Most Bountiful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. We, verily, have unfolded before your eyes that which shall profit you both in this world and in the realm of faith, and which will lead you to the path of salvation. Would that ye might turn thereunto!
*
~ Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 208

 

[SteveVH]

If we’re still discussing the Baha’i Faith there are some succinct verses from the Writings on the topic of salvation:

*The world will pass away, and so will all the things whereat your hearts rejoice, or wherein ye pride yourselves before men. Cleanse the mirrors of your hearts from the dross of the world and all that is therein, that they may reflect the resplendent light of God. This, indeed, shall enable you to dispense with all save God, and to attain unto the good pleasure of your Lord, the Most Bountiful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. We, verily, have unfolded before your eyes that which shall profit you both in this world and in the realm of faith, and which will lead you to the path of salvation. Would that ye might turn thereunto!
*
~ Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 208

So even though the Baha’i faith professes to embrace Christ, it never mentions the salvific act of Christ. Why is that? Do you deny that Christ suffered and died that you might have eternal life?

 

[daler]

So even though the Baha’i faith professes to embrace Christ, it never mentions the salvific act of Christ. Why is that? Do you deny that Christ suffered and died that you might have eternal life?

Steve, The sacrifice of Christ is clear in the following, as well as His exalted rank in the eyes of Baha’u’llah and His followers:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”

 

[daler]

From PR: This doesn’t make sense. Miracles do the opposite of restricting us from the comprehension of the power of the Holy Spirit. They manifest the power of the Holy Spirt.

This is very Catholic!

PR

You are familiar with Jesus’ words: “A wicked and adulterous generation asketh for a sign”. The Pharisees, like children, always wanted this Manifestation of God to reduce Himself to a magician for their entertainment. If only He would please them by performing miracles, then they would deign to lend Him their endorsement, as though He was dependent upon them for the success of His religion.
There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus healed people, but other “miracles” were of another sort, such as the bread and fishes, which I think we discussed before. The true miracle of Christ was the elevation of humanity to the next level of spiritual understanding. By exposing them to the Light of His Words and the knowledge of God, that which is latent in the soul of man is made manifest, but only to those who extend the leaves of their understanding to the rays of the Holy Spirit, which emanated from Him.
A plant grows in stages, germination (illumined by Adam), a shoot (illumined by Abraham), a couple of leaves (illumined by Moses), a flower (illumined by Jesus), and the full fruit of human potential (illumined by Baha’u’llah) Each of the Prophets bring a portion of sunlight to us, from the “Same Sun”

Periodically, PR, you have used the phrase “This is very Catholic”, and I applaud you for this. Back on the farm, we had an artesian well. There was a great hill which collected snow and it would, every year, saturate the hill, such that in the spring season, this pure water would find its way bubbling up from the ground.
When we get a taste of this pure water, then find it bubbling up again straight from the same source which fed the previous artesian well, we recognize it, for it is the same water, pure and unpolluted, welling up through the ages, whether from the time and place of Moses, Jesus, or Baha’u’llah. “My sheep know my voice (water)”
If we look behind these Figures Who are the Source to “us”, in our time and place, there is a Hidden Source behind them as well, which we call God, for He is the Source of all their words, and the wells, and the waters which spring forth from them.
Hence, “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.” (I bring you water from Him)

“I have yet many things (much water) to tell you, but ye cannot bear it now, but when He (Baha’is believe this to be Baha’u’llah) the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you unto all truth.”

Now the rest of what mankind was unable to bear has been revealed to us:

“Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”

 

[daler]

Baha’u’llah WAS that Person you worship who was physically embodied into Jesus of Nazareth…

Bahaullah WAS manifested in the body of Abraham, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

Bahaullah IS the ONLY mediator. He is represented in many bodies over time, and He speaks the Word of God, and each time He comes with a new name…

Bahaullah was all of those…

Ever wondered why the Bahai Faith is the only religion in history that has not suffered schismic division? )

TWO TOPICS:

1 ) The Universal Manifestation Who appears from age to age in different human garb.
2) There is no schism in the Baha’i Faith

TOPIC 1:

“Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous revelations of Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver Me into the hands of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands. Again Thou didst cast Me into the prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed 89 to Me its meaning through the potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose…. Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, 90 however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer.”

TOPIC 2:

There is no schism. The Tree of the Cause of God is One and undivided, for “This is the Day (of God) which shall not be followed by night.”

It is true that there have been a few rebellious ones who have tried to snatch a little branch from off of this Tree and, for a time, a few leaves cling to this branch, but as they have no life of their own, having been severed from the Tree of Life, they soon wither and die. Such is the case of those who broke the Covenant of Baha’u’llah. All have withered and died, and although there may be a twig lying dead on the ground with an occasional leaf left hanging, the leaves have not the color of life, for they are dead also, while the Tree of the Cause of God is growing like a mighty Sequoia amidst the dead needles beneath it.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Outside of literalism and symbolism, is there anything else?

Either something is literally, physically, testably (testable by a scientist) real, OR

It is symbolic, or a physical representation of a supernatural, spiritual reality…
(a bit like my, now passed away, fathers necklace is a physical memory/representative of his life)

Is there any other form of reality?

Your speaking as a naturalist, either or but it cannot be both God and his creation. Will you test the virginity of Mary with science? You allow for precisely one miracle in bahai and you don’t follow this rigid standard you have when you want to scientifically test sacraments or analyse it as if you were an atheist.

Was Mary really a Virgin? Do you believe she was?

 

[PRmerger]

You are familiar with Jesus’ words: “A wicked and adulterous generation asketh for a sign”. The Pharisees, like children, always wanted this Manifestation of God to reduce Himself to a magician for their entertainment. If only He would please them by performing miracles, then they would deign to lend Him their endorsement, as though He was dependent upon them for the success of His religion.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus healed people, but other “miracles” were of another sort, such as the bread and fishes, which I think we discussed before. The true miracle of Christ was the elevation of humanity to the next level of spiritual understanding. By exposing them to the Light of His Words and the knowledge of God, that which is latent in the soul of man is made manifest, but only to those who extend the leaves of their understanding to the rays of the Holy Spirit, which emanated from Him.

Right.

Jesus did not come to be a miracle worker. He performed only a handful of recorded miracles.

Jesus did not come to be a prophet. What he taught was already known by any morally sane individual.

Jesus came to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Right.

Jesus did not come to be a miracle worker. He performed only a handful of recorded miracles.

Jesus did not come to be a prophet. What he taught was already known by any morally sane individual.

Jesus came to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

I would correct the first statement by saying the one miracle Jesus did that is of absolute importance was his ressurection.

 

[mek42]

I would correct the first statement by saying the one miracle Jesus did that is of absolute importance was his ressurection.

Do Catholics ascribe doing the resurrection to the Son or to the Father?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Do Catholics ascribe doing the resurrection to the Son or to the Father?

Am Catholic but am not roman catholic, important to note that. In my opinion the father rose Christ from the dead but Jesus himself declares he has power, that no one can take his life from him.

 

[PRmerger]

I would correct the first statement by saying the one miracle Jesus did that is of absolute importance was his ressurection.

Fair enough. :yup:

 

[mek42]

Am Catholic but am not roman catholic, important to note that. In my opinion the father rose Christ from the dead but Jesus himself declares he has power, that no one can take his life from him.

May I ask if this is your personal understanding or that of your Church?

No challenging here, just theological curiosity.

Thanks!

 

[arthra]

So even though the Baha’i faith professes to embrace Christ, it never mentions the salvific act of Christ. Why is that? Do you deny that Christ suffered and died that you might have eternal life?

You may be unfamilar with our Writings…

As to those souls who are born into this life as ethereal and radiant entities and yet, on account of their handicaps and trials, are deprived of great and real advantages, and leave the world without having lived to the full – certainly this is a cause for grieving. This is the reason why the universal Manifestations of God unveil Their countenances to man, and endure every calamity and sore affliction, and lay down Their lives as a ransom; it is to make these very people, the ready ones, the ones who have capacity, to 65 become dawning points of light, and to bestow upon them the life that fadeth never. This is the true sacrifice: the offering of oneself, even as did Christ, as a ransom for the life of the world.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 64

I think the distinction here maybe that for you many churches have decided creeds that are repeated over and over over centuries of time…

 

[Servant19]

I have no intention of misconstruing your words so please correct me if I am wrong here. Does this mean that you believe that our salvation is a consequence of our own actions independent of the saving grace of Jesus Christ? In other words, do you believe we save ourselves by the way we live?

Thanks.

Hi Steve,

My understanding of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is that there is two components to salvation. Firstly recognition, and secondly application of our faith through deeds.

The first one never changes and is changeless. “This is the changeless Faith of God. Eternal in the past, eternal in the future” - Baha’u’llah

Baha’is beleive that it is the LIGHT that is the source of recognition, that we should recognize and be drawn to, NOT the LAMP from which it shines. It is for this reason that Baha’is recognize the light of the Sun of Truth in all the Manifestations of God.

Forgive me if I am way off target, but it (outwardly seeming anyway) seems that Christianity is incredibly attached to the Lamp, that of the Person of Jesus. Baha’is look beyond the Person and look at the Divinity animating His Person. That Divinity is the Way, the Truth and the Light guiding us to the Father…

Baha’is see that Light in the Bab and Baha’u’llah too.

The second one is deeds. The deeds we need to carry out change from age to age depending on the exhortations of the Light (God) through the Lamp (Jesus, Baha’u’llah etc)

We now live in an age where the deeds we carry out need to address the VERY SPECIFIC problems that are facing global civilization today. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has brought about teachings, which when carried through into deeds will ensure the prosperity, love and security of every single person (without exeption) on the planet.

“The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established…" Baha’u’llah

How do we create true unity? Well Baha’u’llah’s Revelation spells it out incredibly clearly, Abdu’l-Baha (the appointed Interpreter) has elaborated further and the vision is clear, the pathway is set and the global plans of the Baha’i community are bringing about a structure and model for civilization to progress and advance eternally.

bahai.org/frontiers/
(have a look for yourself at a small number of examples)

That is salvation. To be part of this global rennaisance and spiritual revolution which Baha’u’llah has planned for mankind, and contribute to the construction of the Kingdom of God on earth.

Neither of the two components is acceptable without the other in the sight of God, according to Baha’u’llah’s Revelation

 

[SteveVH]

Forgive me if I am way off target, but it (outwardly seeming anyway) seems that Christianity is incredibly attached to the Lamp, that of the Person of Jesus.

No, you would not be off target. We are incredibly attached, not to the Lamp, but to the Lamb; the Person of Jesus Christ. The reason for this is that we believe Jesus to be the Light, not the lamp. He is “the light of the world”, not the lamp of the world.

Baha’is look beyond the Person and look at the Divinity animating His Person. That Divinity is the Way, the Truth and the Light guiding us to the Father…

We would argue that Christ is God’s revelation of himself. We should, therefore, look to Christ and only to Christ. He is not a person animated by some other power. He is that Power. He is that “Divinity”. He said “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

Baha’is see that Light in the Bab and Baha’u’llah too.

Would you equate them with Christ?

The second one is deeds. The deeds we need to carry out change from age to age depending on the exhortations of the Light (God) through the Lamp (Jesus, Baha’u’llah etc)

We now live in an age where the deeds we carry out need to address the VERY SPECIFIC problems that are facing global civilization today.

We agree. In fact the Catholic Church believes so much in this that she created the first hospitals to care for the sick, the first institutions of higher learning. The Church gave the world the scientific method to advance our knowledge of God’s creation. And we are the largest charitable organization on earth; feeding, clothing and housing millions of the world’s poorest in every corner of the globe, regardless of race, religion, sex, or social status. If we do not put flesh on the words of the Gospel, they are just words.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has brought about teachings, which when carried through into deeds will ensure the prosperity, love and security of every single person (without exeption) on the planet

And what are these deeds? Is there something new of which we have not heard? How is this to be accomplished?

How do we create true unity? Well Baha’u’llah’s Revelation spells it out incredibly clearly, Abdu’l-Baha (the appointed Interpreter) has elaborated further and the vision is clear, the pathway is set and the global plans of the Baha’i community are bringing about a structure and model for civilization to progress and advance eternally.

If this is all so clear why don’t you tell us about the global plans of the Baha’i community. Looking at the word today I must ask what is taking so long in putting this plan into action? Do you mean feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving water to the thirsty and housing the homeless; acts of authentic love?

bahai.org/frontiers/
(have a look for yourself at a small number of examples)

I will take a look.

That is salvation. To be part of this global rennaisance and spiritual revolution which Baha’u’llah has planned for mankind, and contribute to the construction of the Kingdom of God on earth.

What about what Jesus has planned for mankind? Sorry, I have a real problem with the place that Jesus receives in your faith tradition. He is just one more in a long line; no greater than Abraham or Moses or Baha’u’llah. The reason that this is a problem for me is that when you study the life of Christ one cannot conclude that he was just a prophet, or a good teacher. He claimed to be the great “I AM”, God himself. No one else has ever made the claims that Jesus made, certainly no prophet. Jesus was either who he claimed to be or he was not. If he was not who he claimed to be then he also was no prophet, but rather a liar and a deceiver. If he was who he said he was then we are to look no further. He is the fulfillment of everything. Does your faith tradition give any credence to the Christian Scriptures, and if so, how does it place Jesus along side any other person?

 

[daler]

No, you would not be off target. We are incredibly attached, not to the Lamp, but to the Lamb; the Person of Jesus Christ. The reason for this is that we believe Jesus to be the Light, not the lamp. He is “the light of the world”, not the lamp of the world.

We would argue that Christ is God’s revelation of himself. We should, therefore, look to Christ and only to Christ. He is not a person animated by some other power. He is that Power. He is that “Divinity”. He said “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

Would you equate them with Christ?

We agree. In fact the Catholic Church believes so much in this that she created the first hospitals to care for the sick, the first institutions of higher learning. The Church gave the world the scientific method to advance our knowledge of God’s creation. And we are the largest charitable organization on earth; feeding, clothing and housing millions of the world’s poorest in every corner of the globe, regardless of race, religion, sex, or social status. If we do not put flesh on the words of the Gospel, they are just words.

And what are these deeds? Is there something new of which we have not heard? How is this to be accomplished?

If this is all so clear why don’t you tell us about the global plans of the Baha’i community. Looking at the word today I must ask what is taking so long in putting this plan into action? Do you mean feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving water to the thirsty and housing the homeless; acts of authentic love?

I will take a look.

What about what Jesus has planned for mankind? Sorry, I have a real problem with the place that Jesus receives in your faith tradition. He is just one more in a long line; no greater than Abraham or Moses or Baha’u’llah. The reason that this is a problem for me is that when you study the life of Christ one cannot conclude that he was just a prophet, or a good teacher. He claimed to be the great “I AM”, God himself. No one else has ever made the claims that Jesus made, certainly no prophet. Jesus was either who he claimed to be or he was not. If he was not who he claimed to be then he also was no prophet, but rather a liar and a deceiver. If he was who he said he was then we are to look no further. He is the fulfillment of everything. Does your faith tradition give any credence to the Christian Scriptures, and if so, how does it place Jesus along side any other person?

My sense of what you are saying is that in the case of Jesus, The Lamp of God was smashed in a failed attempt to put out the Light being shed. It is also correct to say that this Lamp was a sacrificial Lamb, whose blood was shed for us.
What is particularly challenging for many Christians is the fear that the Divine Station of this Lamb is somehow lessened when other Lamps, all sent and lighted by the same Hand of God, are recognized. Don’t take this in the wrong way please, but it is similar to the child’s perspective of his/her own particular father, or mother. We see “our” father as an extension of ourselves and become defensive, as though if “I” am not the “special” child, or singled out as one of the “chosen ones”, then we ourselves are diminished.
In the Baha’i view, regarding God, “He doeth what He willeth”. The following quote should establish the perspective more clearly:

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade…These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.

These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”

The whole of the context, not long, may be found in the following link:

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-god-part1.html

 

[Servant19]

Hi Steve, thankyou for your thoughts.

No, you would not be off target. We are incredibly attached, not to the Lamp, but to the Lamb; the Person of Jesus Christ. The reason for this is that we believe Jesus to be the Light, not the lamp. He is “the light of the world”, not the lamp of the world.

In all senses of the words “He is the light of the world” Baha’is feel the same way about Baha’u’llah

As I say, you may be mixing the “I” of Jesus where He says “the Father is greater than I” from The “I” where He says “I and the Father are One”

As Christian theology dictates, there is a divine and physical aspect to Jesus, and Jesus clearly differentiates between the two in the two statements I provided. Baha’is also believe in a physical and Divine aspect to Baha’u’llah and believe that the Divine aspect?substance of Baha’u’llah is one with Jesus’ Divine aspect.

Would you equate them with Christ?

YES

We agree. In fact the Catholic Church believes so much in this that she created the first hospitals to care for the sick, the first institutions of higher learning. The Church gave the world the scientific method to advance our knowledge of God’s creation. And we are the largest charitable organization on earth; feeding, clothing and housing millions of the world’s poorest in every corner of the globe, regardless of race, religion, sex, or social status. If we do not put flesh on the words of the Gospel, they are just words.

And yet after so many centuries of wonderful humanitarian work, the problems of poverty, sickness, housing and prejudice are increasing…

ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen.html

This man has done more aid work than anyone, and he says himself, it has failed.

Sustainable empowerment of communities to take ownership of their own advancement and development is what the global Baha’i community’s aim is at the moment

And what are these deeds? Is there something new of which we have not heard? How is this to be accomplished?

Time is short, I can post something up for you to look at later
Yes, it is new, and it works…

If this is all so clear why don’t you tell us about the global plans of the Baha’i community. Looking at the word today I must ask what is taking so long in putting this plan into action? Do you mean feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving water to the thirsty and housing the homeless; acts of authentic love?

No I don’t mean feeding the poor etc etc, its significantly more deep than that. Its an entire global system of empowerment and unity. The global Baha’i plans are shaping nicely, but they will take time, but they can accelerate quickly when more people study it and adopt some of the principles. You do not need to be a Baha’i in order to build communities founded on Baha’i principles.

In fact, there are several communities globally where the coordination of Baha’i principles is being carried out by Christians, Muslims etc etc

Again, I can elaborate further, but time is short. I promise I WILL elaborate for you though, very soon

What about what Jesus has planned for mankind? Sorry, I have a real problem with the place that Jesus receives in your faith tradition. He is just one more in a long line; no greater than Abraham or Moses or Baha’u’llah. The reason that this is a problem for me is that when you study the life of Christ one cannot conclude that he was just a prophet, or a good teacher. He claimed to be the great “I AM”, God himself. No one else has ever made the claims that Jesus made, certainly no prophet. Jesus was either who he claimed to be or he was not. If he was not who he claimed to be then he also was no prophet, but rather a liar and a deceiver. If he was who he said he was then we are to look no further. He is the fulfillment of everything. Does your faith tradition give any credence to the Christian Scriptures, and if so, how does it place Jesus along side any other person?

" Say: O King of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days…"
(Baha’u’llah)

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; " (Baha’u’llah)

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God”, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto…" (Baha’u’llah)

 

[Servant19]

There is no reason to create a dichotomy.

The Catholic both/and can be applied here quite easily, Servant.

Are you 100% certain about the fact that no one is ever 100% certain?

True.

But it appears that your conclusion, which is that ontological arguments are therefore false, is not a correct conclusion.

Are you operating under the misapprehension that someone here has claimed absolute knowledge on anything?

Ok.

It would be if anyone here said, “I use ontological arguments to now have absolute knowledge of God!”

Have you seen anyone here say that, Servant?

It appears that you are creating a weird straw man here.

Sure. As has theology.

Nope. I never said that. I said I understood its essence.

Nope.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0ld1kpZAm1qbgytb.gif

That’s too bad that you can’t say you know the essence of marriage. Perhaps when you have been married a few more years, and have read the sublime works of great theologians such as Pope JPII, as well as studied the Word of God, you will be able to state that you understand its essence.

Thanks PR, but I don’t play philosophical jiggery pokery

100% of 100% = 5

Maybe your definition of “essence” is different to mine, but in the context of defining the “essence” of God, you had the same definition as me.

So why does your definition of “essence” change when it comes to defining marriage?

Tell me, what is the “essence of marriage”? In your own words please…

 

[daler]

We would argue that Christ is God’s revelation of himself. We should, therefore, look to Christ and only to Christ. He is not a person animated by some other power. He is that Power. He is that “Divinity”. He said “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

And what are these deeds? Is there something new of which we have not heard? How is this to be accomplished?

If this is all so clear why don’t you tell us about the global plans of the Baha’i community. Looking at the word today I must ask what is taking so long in putting this plan into action? Do you mean feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving water to the thirsty and housing the homeless; acts of authentic love?

Looking to Christ and only to Christ requires looking to His return as well, for “Man does not live by bread alone, but by “every” word which the mouth of the Lord utters.”, including the two most recent Manifestations of God, the Bab and Baha’u’llah, according to Baha’i beliefs which are consistent with all Biblical Prophecies.

Therefore, when the Lord returns, He utters more words, the “ones ye cannot bare” at the time of His first coming. Those words had to sink in for a couple of thousand years before we were ready for “The Spirit of Truth, Who shall guide you unto all truth.”

While the record of Baha'i social and economic development plans are all over the planet, including numerous schools in third world countries, what is important to note is

Baha’u’llah’s words: “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind” All else will fail, perpetuating eternal suffering due to the dysfunctional and harmful disunity among the children of men.

The global plans are essentially the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith set up all over the planet and functioning very well with every combination of race, ethnicity, income, nationality, religious background, most languages, etc, who elect with secret ballots and no campaigning or power of individuals who serve on those Assemblies (9 members each). No contributions of money from any non-Baha’is are ever accepted or solicited. There is no priesthood in the Baha’i Faith, no clergy, all are equal, men and women, who consult to make plans and problem solve, administering the affairs of the Cause. After only 170 years the it is the 2nd most geographically widespread religion on earth, following Christianity, having a 2000 year history, and this only if all of the many thousands of sects are included, while the Baha’i Faith remains one single organized religion with its International Headquarters in Haifa, Israel, that being the Universal House of Justice, which is elected every 5 years since 1963.

Worldwide Statistics

Number of Baha’is in the world: more than 5,000,000
Established in nearly every country and in many dependent territories
Most nations and a few territories have a National Spiritual Assembly elected by the Baha’is of that jurisdiction
Number of localities where Baha’is reside: more than 100,000
Number of Local Spiritual Assemblies: more than 10,000
Number of languages into which Baha’i literature has been translated: more than 800
Tribes, races and ethnic groups represented in the Baha’i community: about 2,100
(See the statistics page from the Baha’i World News Servicefor more information)

United States Statistics (as of June 1, 2011)

Number of Baha’is in the United States: 169,578
Number of localities where Baha’is reside: 9,529
Number of Local Spiritual Assemblies: 1,080