Bahá'í

[Servant19]

While education of children, programs for the spiritual empowerment of junior youth, study circles and devotional meetings are all fine and good, they are hardly unique. We have been doing the equivalent for 2000 years.

Hi Steve,
Yes the pursuance of education of all age groups has most certainly been a cornerstone of ALL religions, not just Catholicism, I have seen the Buddhist monks take on their young counterparts on strenuous spiritual journeys and it is indeed noble, and this has been going on for millenia in Buddhism

Yet the reality of it is that all previous religious education revolves around the indoctrination of the children within the tenets of the Faith sponsoring that education.

How many religious education classes for children throughout history have actively PURSUED the most thorough education possible of all major global Faiths?

I want to go to a Muslim school, and I will likely not even hear of the Buddhist texts at all, go to a Catholic school in Australia and you will not learn much, if anything, about the Baha’i Faith either, certainly not until 12th Grade.

My point is not to ridicule in any manner, a Catholic school has the RIGHT to teach what it wants to teach its children (and we won’t even start the discussion on why it wouldn’t let my friends 9 year old son in because he was not Catholic, while all his friends who were Catholic were there), but I also have the RIGHT to teach in my school, ONLY BIOLOGY, nothing else…it does not reflect REALITY

There is so much more richness to life than just one Faith, children should be given the intellectual responsibility to make a conscious decision on the Faith they wish to practice BASED ON COMPREHENSIVE KNOWLEDGE, not by simply following the indoctrined traditions of their family…God has given us the faculties to explore reality to its fullest, “especially in this Age of knowledge”, so why are we foregoing this faculty and blindly following tradition?

Here in Vietnam, I see incredible poverty in some quarters, people are selling milkshakes on the street for less that 1 dollar, but heck, they ALL have an iPhone!! What an unbelievable age of access to all knowledge we live in. We should praise God that He has enabled us to DISCOVER His signs in all the atoms in the real universe. Why should we turn a blind eye?

True education is critical and opens the mind, indoctrination only serves to close the mind.

The Baha’i programs will never indoctrinate, but they are based on starting with initially finding the values common within all religions and encouraging the children to ACT. Homework is given where virtues are practiced, prayers are learnt, and a sense of the sacred is appreciated. No need to talk about any specific religions there, right? We all want to show forth Godly fruits, virtues, pray daily, and have a sacred appreciation for creation, and this is where the 5 year olds begin. This is then explored further and further as the children age into a full exploration of the lives and central tenets of all the major global religious Founders, starting with Abraham and ending with Baha’u’llah. This develops a sense of loving regard for GOD, and a desire to serve Him, simply through the use of creativity to express and practice the virtues which we have learned about…

 

[Servant19]

Again, the Catholic Church has remained unified for 2000 years. Yes, we have those who have broken away and formed their own faith, but the Church remains intact and continues to grow, with the same consistent doctrines it has held since the days of the Apostles. So I fail to see how a religion remaining unified for only 160 years can be classified as “unique” in this respect.

Fair enough

If you want to classify the Catholic Church as the “true” Christianity, one must ask the question why so many other denominations have been allowed to remain organised and active for so long, and with such strong numbers?

Ignatian wants to imply that there are other sects of the Baha’i Faith yet I challenge anyone to give me any numbers in regards to the size of this group.

The Baha’i Covenant of succession is 100% watertight, and it will always remain so, only those with delusions claim any INDIVIDUAL AUTHORITY in the Baha’i Faith. It goes Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice, all the way up to the next Manifestation of God, after which time, maybe the human elements may have again distorted Gods Message and its time for another Divine Springtime for humanity again

Since I have no idea what you mean by “Baha’i consultation” I have no idea whether or not it is unique, however being only 160 years old It is not accurate to say that it is unique “throughout religious history”. While I appreciate your response, I still fail to see a plan that is different or unique. Maybe I am still missing something.

The first principle of Baha’i administration is that there is NO CLERGY in the Baha’i Faith. This allows for all decisions locally, nationally and internationally to be done by a group of 9 ELECTED individuals, who make all decisions for the welfare of their community using Baha’i consultation which, as daler has already pointed out involves making decision where there is no ownership of ones ideas when put forward. This is a VERY basic outline of what is involved.

When you are elected onto the local administrative body (the Local Spiritual Assembly) you are obliged to serve on the institution for a year (unless health etc intervenes). ANY Baha’i who lives in the community, above the age of 21 is eligible to be elected.

As far as I know, this is unique in the formation of administrative institutions within any religious organisation. Happy to be shown otherwise

The Catholic Church consists of parishes (local), dioceses (regional), and the universal jurisdiction of Rome and we are in every corner of the globe. What is unique about this kind of institutional structure?

Thanks.

See above, we can easily go into more detail, but for now that will do, and I hope it inspires some further dialogue

 

[daler]

So if a Scientologist tells you that the writings of Hubbard gave him goosebumps and truly spoke to him, you would tell him,“Then Hubbards writings are the inspired words of God to you!”

Dear PR,
In a second post I stated that of course there is no “goose bump test” All I intended to say was that the Lord’s Prayer gave me goose bumps. That there was, to me, always something special about it and that it affected me.
This was what I was driving at, that the Words of God affect people. Hubbards words are just ****, like so much propaganda. That some people will believe in virtually anything they are presented attests to the need for people to belong to something, anything, just to be a “part of” a larger group. They get affirmations that they are accepted, special, and what have you.
But when you look into things, with an unbiased eye, some things eventually stand high and above the normal words of men, be they learned or charismatic.
The writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah and Jesus do that.

 

[daler]

This is circular reasoning, daler.

You can’t say:

I know something is not inspired because it says things that aren’t inspired.

And

I know something is inspired when it says things that are inspired.

You need to have some basis for truth in order to discern what is true and what is not.

PR When Jesus said to Peter, “Who do you say that I am?” Was this circular reasoning?
No. It left Peter to answer what it is that he recognized about Him that was different from other men. “My Lord and My God!”

When I look at the writings of certain men and you ask me, “Who do you think wrote them?” and I respond, Clearly, these are not of God. This is subjective, not circular, reasoning.

The realm of logic applies up to a point. That is, some things transcend the limits of logic.
It is also true that “theology” is supposed to follow the laws of logic, although conflicting theologies indicate that some one or both may be lacking in logic wherein the rules of logic are applied, and people will argue over this or that.

The evidence of the sun is the heat and light. The evidence of the Manifestation, the Sun of Truth, are His Words and deeds.
I can tell the sun by its heat and light. I can tell the Manifestation by His Words and deeds.

Your quote:
“You need to have some basis for truth in order to discern what is true and what is not.”

The Spirit of Truth, Who has come in the Person of Baha’u’llah, is that basis.

 

[daler]

Since I have no idea what you mean by “Baha’i consultation” I have no idea whether or not it is unique, however being only 160 years old It is not accurate to say that it is unique “throughout religious history”. While I appreciate your response, I still fail to see a plan that is different or unique. Maybe I am still missing something.

Thanks.

BAHAI CONSULTATION:

Consultation is a distinctive, non-adversarial method of decision-making whose principles were laid out by the founder of the Baha’i Faith, Baha’u’llah. The goal of consultation is to investigate truth and to build consensus among groups of any size and composition.

The way in which people with a variety of opinions and background are able to agree is if every member of the group follows these five simple, yet powerful, instructions:

1. Ascertain the facts. The widest possible range of sources and variety of perspectives should be included in information gathering.
2. Identify fundamental spiritual principles that may apply to the problem or issue. For Baha’is, these underlying principles may include such concepts as the equality of men and women, the harmony of science and religion, and the elimination of all forms of prejudice.
3. Be as candid and frank as possible during discussion of the topic at hand, while maintaining a courteous interest in the views and ideas of others. Anything that could sabotage this principle – such as personal attacks, blanket ultimatums or prejudicial statements – should be avoided.
4. Be detached. The moment an idea is put forth – it belongs to the group. This profound principle encourages ideas that are born from a sincere desire to serve, as opposed to ideas that come from a desire for recognition or to build constituency.
5. Make a decision. Unanimity in a decision is desired, but a majority vote can be taken to bring about conclusion. It’s crucial that once a decision has been made, the entire group acts on it with unity, regardless of who or how many supported the measure. In this way there can be no “minority” report or “position of the opposition” in consultation. Rather, Bahá’ís believe that if a decision is a wrong one, it will become evident in its implementation—but only if the decision-making group and, indeed, the community at large, support it wholeheartedly. This commitment to unity ensures that if a decision or a project fails, the problem lies in the idea itself, and not in lack of support from the community or the obstinate actions of opponents.

“If they agree on a subject, even though it be wrong, it is better than to disagree and be in the right, for this difference will produce the demolition of the divine foundation. Though one of the parties may be in the right and they disagree that will be the cause of a thousand wrongs, but if they agree and both parties are in the wrong, as it is in unity the truth will be revealed and the wrong made right.”

“The shining spark of truth, cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions.”

— Abdu’l Baha

 

[happyme]

PR

The evidence of the sun is the heat and light. The evidence of the Manifestation, the Sun of Truth, are His Words and deeds.
I can tell the sun by its heat and light. I can tell the Manifestation by His Words and deeds.

Your quote:
“You need to have some basis for truth in order to discern what is true and what is not.”

The Spirit of Truth, Who has come in the Person of Baha’u’llah, is that basis.

The evidence of Jesus the Christ, is His beloved words and life, no other proof is needed.

This is the same with any messenger of God, His life and His book (His words and teachings)
Those who do not wish to study the Living Word of Baha’u’llah are depriving themselves of the Word of God, for this day.
OK turn away critisize find fault, all of these things will not impact one iota upon any Baha’is here, but the day comes when all of us have to account for our actions, I trust that those who scoff, do not study, understand the peril they are in.

I am so thankful that God has allowed me to see and understand His Living Word, I am just so thankful each day, and watch with sadness those who scoff and stop honest souls from discovering God and His Messenger.
But so it has been in the past and will keep happening, it is a matter of personal investigation as the Jews found in the days of Jesus.

 

[mek42]

Are non Bahai welcome to attend a holy book study at a Bahai place?

 

[daler]

Are non Bahai welcome to attend a holy book study at a Bahai place?

Mek,
Yes they are. Often Baha’is meet in homes, or in larger cities which may have a Baha’i Center.

They often what they call Ruhi Classes. Ruhi is a Persian word meaning spiritual.

 

[SteveVH]

Fair enough

If you want to classify the Catholic Church as the “true” Christianity, one must ask the question why so many other denominations have been allowed to remain organised and active for so long, and with such strong numbers?

Allowed? God has given each of us the divine gift of free will and he will never interfere with that free will. We are allowed to follow whatever path we choose. But Jesus came and revealed to the world that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that no comes to the Father but through Him. We are free to reject His words and we are free to reject the Church which Christ Himself would build.

As for non-Catholic Christians, rather than remaining organized, they have splintered into tens of thousands of different faith traditions. Yes there are exceptions, such as Lutheran and Anglican which have remained relatively intact since the so-called “Reformation”, but even these are now headed off the skids, rejecting even their own earlier positions with the adoption of women and actively homosexual clergy, among other things. All have, in one way or another, rejected the Church that Christ founded. And they are absolutely free to do so.

Ignatian wants to imply that there are other sects of the Baha’i Faith yet I challenge anyone to give me any numbers in regards to the size of this group.

The Baha’i Covenant of succession is 100% watertight, and it will always remain so, only those with delusions claim any INDIVIDUAL AUTHORITY in the Baha’i Faith. It goes Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice, all the way up to the next Manifestation of God, after which time, maybe the human elements may have again distorted Gods Message and its time for another Divine Springtime for humanity again

I find that a sad situation. We believe, because of the promises of Christ concerning his Church, that our doctrines (beliefs concerning faith and morals) are divinely protected from error, just as fallible human beings were protected from error in penning the Sacred Scriptures. This is the work of God, not man. Because of this belief, we do not look to any other “manifestation” or any further prophets. Christ is sufficient.

The first principle of Baha’i administration is that there is NO CLERGY in the Baha’i Faith. This allows for all decisions locally, nationally and internationally to be done by a group of 9 ELECTED individuals, who make all decisions for the welfare of their community using Baha’i consultation which, as daler has already pointed out involves making decision where there is no ownership of ones ideas when put forward. This is a VERY basic outline of what is involved.

When you are elected onto the local administrative body (the Local Spiritual Assembly) you are obliged to serve on the institution for a year (unless health etc intervenes). ANY Baha’i who lives in the community, above the age of 21 is eligible to be elected.

As far as I know, this is unique in the formation of administrative institutions within any religious organisation. Happy to be shown otherwise

So the Baha’i faith, then, is a democracy? The truth is determined by a vote? May I ask how you know, with fallible human beings at the helm, whether or not what you are being taught is actually true? Do you believe in divine protection in this regard?

 

[daler]

Allowed? God has given each of us the divine gift of free will and he will never interfere with that free will. We are allowed to follow whatever path we choose. But Jesus came and revealed to the world that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that no comes to the Father but through Him. We are free to reject His words and we are free to reject the Church which Christ Himself would build.

As for non-Catholic Christians, rather than remaining organized, they have splintered into tens of thousands of different faith traditions. Yes there are exceptions, such as Lutheran and Anglican which have remained relatively intact since the so-called “Reformation”, but even these are now headed off the skids, rejecting even their own earlier positions with the adoption of women and actively homosexual clergy, among other things. All have, in one way or another, rejected the Church that Christ founded. And they are absolutely free to do so.

I find that a sad situation. We believe, because of the promises of Christ concerning his Church, that our doctrines (beliefs concerning faith and morals) are divinely protected from error, just as fallible human beings were protected from error in penning the Sacred Scriptures. This is the work of God, not man. Because of this belief, we do not look to any other “manifestation” or any further prophets. Christ is sufficient.

So the Baha’i faith, then, is a democracy? The truth is determined by a vote? May I ask how you know, with fallible human beings at the helm, whether or not what you are being taught is actually true? Do you believe in divine protection in this regard?

Steve, I always enjoy your thoughtful comments and questions. You are very polite and courteous, for which I am ever grateful.
You know, religion is a powerful thing, evoking the strongest emotions, for what we each “believe” is at the heart of who we are and how we function as a society. Our “relationship” with God determines much of our lives, individually and collectively, how we interact.
As a Baha’i, I honestly do believe that no one comes to the Father but through Christ, but that Christ Identity is the “Manifestation” of God, for we cannot grasp or approach God without Him. When, as you say, “Christ is sufficient”, I agree, except that I view Christ in a broader understanding than the sole appearance of Jesus as that One anointed by the Holy Spirit.
When you say you don’t look to any other “manifestation” or further prophets, this goes to the heart of it. John the Baptist was the Return of Elijah, for he manifested that which made Elijah “The Prophet” who he was. The essence of that divine reality was visited upon John, which was visited upon Elijah, and the “Identity” of both was the same, and for Baha’is, that is what counts.
I don’t mean to overuse quotes, but this is pertinent to the dialogue:

. “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

. Once having recognized “Him”, we obey Him, and the Divine Institutions He has set up, which for Baha’is, are the Local and National Spiritual Assemblies, elected democratically each year, and the Universal House of Justice, elected every 5 years. It is written in our Holy Book that the latter will be infallibly guided by God - not the individuals, but the body in its decisions, for the Institution of the House of Justice is established as the means of Administration in the Holy Book, which Baha’is do believe has come to us from God, even as we believe the 10 Commandments came from God.
. The “human beings” at the helm are not infallible. It is the Divine Institution which is promised infallibility, for it is the expression of God’s will that human affairs (of the believers) be administered through this manner, which does give humanity a voice to express who shall fill those positions of leadership and service.
. Also, for us, this is what Christ has founded, but of course from your perspective it would be impossible for your to accept that unless or until you, too, “recognized” Baha’u’llah as the Dayspring of Revelation and the Fountain of His Laws, which would mean that you have become a Baha’i…
. God bless, dear friend

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PR,
In a second post I stated that of course there is no “goose bump test” All I intended to say was that the Lord’s Prayer gave me goose bumps. That there was, to me, always something special about it and that it affected me.
This was what I was driving at, that the Words of God affect people. Hubbards words are just ****, like so much propaganda. That some people will believe in virtually anything they are presented attests to the need for people to belong to something, anything, just to be a “part of” a larger group. They get affirmations that they are accepted, special, and what have you.
But when you look into things, with an unbiased eye, some things eventually stand high and above the normal words of men, be they learned or charismatic.
The writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah and Jesus do that.

Fair enough.

Then how is it that you know what Jesus said is the inspired Word of God, except through the Catholic Church?

 

[daler]

As for non-Catholic Christians, rather than remaining organized, they have splintered into tens of thousands of different faith traditions. Yes there are exceptions, such as Lutheran and Anglican which have remained relatively intact since the so-called “Reformation”, but even these are now headed off the skids, rejecting even their own earlier positions with the adoption of women and actively homosexual clergy, among other things. All have, in one way or another, rejected the Church that Christ founded. And they are absolutely free to do so.

Steve, you do make a very important point here. These thousands of man-made schisms or sects are like hacking down a live tree, hauling off a twig and claiming it to be “Thee Tree”… This is human invention, to claim “I” have the truth, as so many corner churches seem to do. The same is seen in Jewish, Muslim, and other religions.

To overcome this schismism, there must be a recognizable Covenant, reasonable in its foundation, traceable to the Founder of the religion in question. For Catholics, this goes back to Peter, “Upon this rock I will build My church.”
For Baha’is, Abdul Baha was appointed by Baha’u’llah to be the Center of the Covenant, to whom all must turn. After Him was Shoghi Effendi, His grandson, who was appointed as the Guardian of the Cause of God, and then the Universal House of Justice, which “Is” and elected body, whom all Baha’is world wide accept and do obey in its decisions as the head of our Administrative Order.

While a few lame attempts have been made by some very egotistical personalities, each has withered and died, and the only vestiges which remain our a handful here or there, meaning at most, a few dozen in any particular group, where as the membership of the Baha’i Faith numbers around 6 million worldwide, all of whom recognize the authority of the Universal House of Justice, the very Institution Baha’u’llah designed and set up.

 

[PRmerger]

Are non Bahai welcome to attend a holy book study at a Bahai place?

I am not even a Baha’i and my knowledge of this faith is infinitesimally small, but even I know the answer to that: of course you are welcome.

 

[SteveVH]

Once having recognized “Him”, we obey Him, and the Divine Institutions He has set up, which for Baha’is, are the Local and National Spiritual Assemblies, elected democratically each year, and the Universal House of Justice, elected every 5 years. It is written in our Holy Book that the latter will be infallibly guided by God - not the individuals, but the body in its decisions, for the Institution of the House of Justice is established as the means of Administration in the Holy Book, which Baha’is do believe has come to us from God, even as we believe the 10 Commandments came from God.
. The “human beings” at the helm are not infallible. It is the Divine Institution which is promised infallibility, for it is the expression of God’s will that human affairs (of the believers) be administered through this manner, which does give humanity a voice to express who shall fill those positions of leadership and service.

God bless, dear friend

Thank you, I have learned something. So you would have no problem with the Catholic Church’s stance that it is divinely protected from error?

This, however, begs the question that has been running through this entire conversation. If the Baha’i faith is divinely protected from error and the Catholic Church is divinely protected from error, then what do we do with the contradictions one poses to the other? Would you not agree that if I believe it is divinely revealed that Christ is God’s only Word and that there will be no other and if you believe that Christ is one manifestation in a long line of others, that both cannot be correct? And if both cannot be correct then one must be in error and therefore not divinely inspired?

By the way, thank you for your kind words.

God bless.

 

[daler]

Fair enough.

Then how is it that you know what Jesus said is the inspired Word of God, except through the Catholic Church?

PR “My sheep know My voice.” I am one of His sheep. Baa …

For me, no one ever had to tell me “That, young man, is Jesus, the inspired Word of God”

Who told Peter that Jesus was the Inspired Word of God? He figured it out on his own, just by hanging around Him.
Well, I can’t hang around Him, because He hasn’t been around for awhile, but His Words are, and that is all I need to recognize His voice - His Words.

Forgive me if I say this the wrong way, but you don’t?

It seems to me that it is an “authority identification” issue for you. That you “must” believe what someone tells you, rather than search it out on your own and discover the reality stands on its own.

For Baha’is, one of the central tenants of our Faith is the Independent Investigation of Truth.

. “Tear asunder, in My Name, the veils that have grievously blinded your vision, and, through the power born of your belief in the unity of God, scatter the idols of vain imitation. Enter, then, the holy paradise of the good-pleasure of the All-Merciful. Sanctify your souls from whatsoever is not of God, and taste ye the sweetness of rest within the pale of His vast and mighty Revelation, and beneath the shadow of His supreme and infallible authority. Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[PRmerger]

PR “My sheep know My voice.” I am one of His sheep. Baa …

That doesn’t answer my question, friend.

What “voice” of Christ have you heard, outside of that which the Catholic Church has told you is the voice of Christ?

In other words: if the Catholic Church told you that Jesus said, “My sheep know My voice”, then that’s the ONLY way you know this.

You submit to the authority of the Catholic Church each and every time you quote from the Bible what it is that Jesus said.

 

[daler]

Thank you, I have learned something. So you would have no problem with the Catholic Church’s stance that it is divinely protected from error?

This, however, begs the question that has been running through this entire conversation. If the Baha’i faith is divinely protected from error and the Catholic Church is divinely protected from error, then what do we do with the contradictions one poses to the other? Would you not agree that if I believe it is divinely revealed that Christ is God’s only Word and that there will be no other and if you believe that Christ is one manifestation in a long line of others, that both cannot be correct? And if both cannot be correct then one must be in error and therefore not divinely inspired?

By the way, thank you for your kind words.

God bless.

Steve, This is very good and right to the point. I think we are cutting through the chase, as it were.

Here is how I understand the dilemma. From the standpoint of the Jewish hierarchy, “They” were the ones who were divinely protected from error. Right? Would this be the correct assumption?
Now as we both accept that Jesus was the Messiah, when He came, quite clearly (to those who recognized Him), all that changed, right?
For the whole purpose of the “Leadership” of the Jewish people regarding the Messiah was to prepare them for His coming. (Other lesser reasons, I admit, still were part of their function)
Now when the Pharisees failed to recognize Him Who was the Lord of the Sabbath, and persecuted Him and His followers for breaking the Laws of the Sabbath, they failed in their duty towards Him, which was also failing in their duty towards God, for which reason “they”, as an Institution of authority, ever existed.

I would tend to agree with your supposition that the Catholic Church was originally the divine authority, for the Covenant was established through Peter.

So here is the clincher. Even as Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees for failing to recognize Him:

. “Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.”

… “If” the Big IF, which for Baha’is is no longer an If, but an “Is”, Baha’u’llah is the One foretold by Jesus, the Christ, then once again we are at the cusp of that same paradigm shift in religious authority, for when if the Church fails to recognize Him when He has come, their Link to Infallibility must necessarily cease to exist, and as you say, they cannot both be correct.

 

[daler]

That doesn’t answer my question, friend.

What “voice” of Christ have you heard, outside of that which the Catholic Church has told you is the voice of Christ?

In other words: if the Catholic Church told you that Jesus said, “My sheep know My voice”, then that’s the ONLY way you know this.

You submit to the authority of the Catholic Church each and every time you quote from the Bible what it is that Jesus said.

PR In one sense I think I understand you, that what you regard as “ownership” of all the documents and letters which make up the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament belongs under the term “the Catholic Church”… well… to me that is a bit of a stretch, but if you see it that way, then that is where you are coming from.

I look at it this way. If I were living at the time of Jesus, while He was still physically alive on earth, and I had “ears to hear”, I would surely hope that I would be among them that “know His voice” and follow Him, and be one of His sheep. This is before an Institution would have been set up.

Now if those Gospels, which bore record of His words, had been circulated, and I happened to come across them, and I still had “ears to hear”, then again I should hope that I would be attuned to the Voice of my Master, whether I knew of the existence of any Institution at the time or not.
For me, the next question would be to recognize the Institution, and its authority.

Do you follow the logic of my argument? That the Institution is dependent upon Him, and not the other way around, and that it is the recognition of Him that tells me that He is the Inspired Word of God.

 

[SteveVH]

So here is the clincher. Even as Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees for failing to recognize Him:

. “Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.”

… “If” the Big IF, which for Baha’is is no longer an If, but an “Is”, Baha’u’llah is the One foretold by Jesus, the Christ, then once again we are at the cusp of that same paradigm shift in religious authority, for when if the Church fails to recognize Him when He has come, their Link to Infallibility must necessarily cease to exist, and as you say, they cannot both be correct.

Before we continue, I want to make sure I understand the point you are trying to make. The Pharisees wanted a sign from Jesus that he was the Messiah. He told them that they will receive no sign except the sign of Jonah. The sign of Jonah, in Catholic understanding, is the resurrection. Just as Jonah was in the whale’s belly for three days, Jesus will be in the heart of the earth for three days. The resurrection would be the definitive sign of the Messiah.

How do you conclude from the verses you stated that this means that Jesus is pointing to someone else, such as Baha’u’lah?

 

[PRmerger]

PR In one sense I think I understand you, that what you regard as “ownership” of all the documents and letters which make up the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament belongs under the term “the Catholic Church”… well… to me that is a bit of a stretch, but if you see it that way, then that is where you are coming from.

Again, is there some OTHER way that you know what belongs in the New Testament, save for giving tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic Church?