Bahá'í

[daler]

Thanks for this, daler. The enemy prowls about the earth seeking whom he may devour. There really are no words. Lord Jesus, come!

Steve, Thank you for taking your time to watch this and for the kindness of your words. It is the same enemy, still prowling, after all these thousands of years.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

I have a few minutes now and will try and address the “What do Baha’is do?” question. I’ve delayed this simply because its a huge vast expanse of words to adequately describe.

Daler has already addressed some areas of activity, but my area of work at the moment revolves around the creation of self sustaining neighborhoods in geographical areas known as clusters. Every single spot of land in the planet is part of a Bahai cluster.

Within each cluster, programs are in place for the following:

1. The education of children to acquire virtues and how to put them into practice with a world embracing vision.
2. Programs for the spiritual empowerment of junior youth (12-15 yr olds). This age group is especially valued for Baha’is. They are taught that making maximum efforts in pursuits that contribute to selfless service of all community members draws particular confirmation from God. This is the first step of their empowerment, and this culminates in them, at the age of 15 becoming very effective leaders of moral excellence and agents for long term, coordinated socio-economic development
3. Study circles for 15+ age bracket. This activity is run by the Ruhi institute, and there is no better explanation than its website:

www.ruhi.org

1. Devotional meetings, where friends gather together from all religions and pray to the One God. This raises the “devotional character of the community”

Worship and service form the foundation of these 4 core activities forming a community dedicated to one reality, worshipping and serving the One God, without prejudice, (whether cultural, racial, gender, or religious). These twin pillars, worship and service are the mainstay of what it means to be a Bahai, both individually and collectively, and the programs provide all participants highly effective and practical tools to build and strengthen their capacity to do both these things.

Thank you, Servant. It appears that members of the Baha’i faith are involved in some very worthwhile projects. If you will recall I was responding specifically to this post:

Originally Posted by Servant19
No I don’t mean feeding the poor etc etc, its significantly more deep than that. Its an entire global system of empowerment and unity. The global Baha’i plans are shaping nicely, but they will take time, but they can accelerate quickly when more people study it and adopt some of the principles. You do not need to be a Baha’i in order to build communities founded on Baha’i principles.

In fact, there are several communities globally where the coordination of Baha’i principles is being carried out by Christians, Muslims etc etc

Again, I can elaborate further, but time is short. I promise I WILL elaborate for you though, very soon.

While education of children, programs for the spiritual empowerment of junior youth, study circles and devotional meetings are all fine and good, they are hardly unique. We have been doing the equivalent for 2000 years.

The collective foundation for all sustainable service within any Bahai inspired community, is the beautiful art of Bahai consultation which vivifies the process of decision making within the elected local, national and international institutions, and has allowed for a 160+ year old religion to stay unified as it has steadily grown in its infancy. Bahai consultation is unique throughout religious history.

Again, the Catholic Church has remained unified for 2000 years. Yes, we have those who have broken away and formed their own faith, but the Church remains intact and continues to grow, with the same consistent doctrines it has held since the days of the Apostles. So I fail to see how a religion remaining unified for only 160 years can be classified as “unique” in this respect.

Since I have no idea what you mean by “Baha’i consultation” I have no idea whether or not it is unique, however being only 160 years old It is not accurate to say that it is unique “throughout religious history”. While I appreciate your response, I still fail to see a plan that is different or unique. Maybe I am still missing something.

The institutions are unique, the decision making process is unique and the outcome of a guaranteed unified religious community is similarly unique.

The processes at play can be viewed in this beautiful video 4 clusters where the service and worship processes are beginning to take shape. There are over 5000 cluster worldwide where similar things to what you see in this video are taking place:

www.bahai.org/frontiers

The Catholic Church consists of parishes (local), dioceses (regional), and the universal jurisdiction of Rome and we are in every corner of the globe. What is unique about this kind of institutional structure?

Thanks.

 

[daler]

The Catholic Church consists of parishes (local), dioceses (regional), and the universal jurisdiction of Rome and we are in every corner of the globe. What is unique about this kind of institutional structure?

Thanks.

Steve, I think I’ll jump in here. I just happen to have two cents in my pocket and nowhere to spend it.

It isn't that the Baha'i Faith is reinventing the wheel so much as it is coordinating in a universal way much like the Catholic Faith has done for many centuries.  You might say that in a sense it is an expansion of, and continuation of, a similar religious impulse, but across broader lines of humanity.   This is not intended to compete with the Catholic Church or anyone else, but to work in coordination with everyone on the planet.   It is a level of human integration across all lines of religious, cultural, racial, ethnic, national, economic status, and other grounds which have traditionally been insurmountable in the log-jam of human history and interaction.

We, as a species, develop in stages and form identities, become entrenched in them, and eventually find ourselves in a state of paralysis, unable to move forward, for the means of our progress through these stages eventually collide with one another. What is then required is a new paradigm to achieve the same thing universally as had once worked during the process of progression.
In order to achieve this, we need help from God, and Baha’is believe that it is the plan of God which has gotten us to where we are and will propel us forward through the next successive stages in our universal development. The means by which God moves us forward is a series of Divine Educators, Prophets, or (in Baha’i terminology) Manifestations of God Whose Mission is to lift us out of one condition of growth and onto the next one, like the leaves, blossoms, and fruits of a plant.
The sun of 5000 years ago supplied rays of light for the first couple of leaves of the tree of humanity. That same sun shone upon this tree in successive stages, bringing new leaves and branches in its developmental processes. Again, when it was ready to flower, the same sun shone upon this human tree and nurtured those petals which were ready to extend themselves outward to receive more light when the sun reappeared over the horizon. But it is a voluntary process, not imposed upon those leaves and petals. It supplies a further outpouring of the same Light shed in the past, but from a slightly different point on the horizon.
So it is the same sun shedding the same light in every day, month, year, aeon, and cycle. We just call these days, months, and years by different names, and of course humanity has a lot of different names for things.
Now because one (or many) leaves and branches of this tree continue to grow and contribute to the life of the tree is because that, too, remains a necessary function of mankind’s ordered life. Thus, the members of the various religions of the world carry on their work, and that is all well and good. In fact, it is essential to the survival of the whole.
There is, however, a further pattern of unity happening to unfold during the age we live in which is enabling the various plants of the forest of humanity to become healthy and coordinate on an even higher plane of existence, to restore our collective health, both material and spiritual, in a way which was intended long, long ago, when the plant was still in its infancy, and in those various stages of development along the way.
Consultation for Baha’is means offering of ideas without regard to whether “I” said this, or “you” said that, and if the various "I"s and "you"s mean Catholic, Protestant, Sunni, Shiah, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu and so many subsets and their individual human components, it doesn’t get in the way, for we recognize that “The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens”, and that “All the Prophets of God proclaim the same Faith”
All the religions (the branches of this tree) are connected, and all have promised that this day would come, ushered in by the appearance of a great teacher, unifier, and Promoter of the Word of God. So the Buddhists await Maetreye, the Hindus a new Krsna, the Jews the Lord of Hosts, the Christians the return of Christ, the Muslims the Mihdi, etc, etc, but Baha’is see them all as one and the same Promised One and His name is Baha’u’llah, the Glory of God.
We are made up of the leaves, flowers, and petals of all of these Faiths. We agree that the One promised to us has appeared, and although we come from different branches upon this tree, it is still the same tree, and we recognize that we are now in the stage of the fulfillment of “There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd”, or the “Sacred Hoop of all Nations”, etc Some enter in by the Gate before others, who then stand to welcome them as they come. Others pass by the Gate, but all are invited.
God is Most Glorious!!

 

[SteveVH]

It isn’t that the Baha’i Faith is reinventing the wheel so much as it is coordinating in a universal way much like the Catholic Faith has done for many centuries. You might say that in a sense it is an expansion of, and continuation of, a similar religious impulse, but across broader lines of humanity. This is not intended to compete with the Catholic Church or anyone else, but to work in coordination with everyone on the planet. It is a level of human integration across all lines of religious, cultural, racial, ethnic, national, economic status, and other grounds which have traditionally been insurmountable in the log-jam of human history and interaction.

But how is this unique? The Catholic Church has reached every nation of the world, many centuries ago. While we have no intention of integrating other religions into our own, we do encounter every culture, race, nationality and economic status. Many of these have proven difficult, but certainly not insurmountable. Maybe I have misunderstood you.

Consultation for Baha’is means offering of ideas without regard to whether “I” said this, or “you” said that, and if the various "I"s and "you"s mean Catholic, Protestant, Sunni, Shiah, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu and so many subsets and their individual human components, it doesn’t get in the way, for we recognize that “The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens”, and that "All the Prophets of God proclaim the same Faith"

If you don’t mind, can we focus on the bolded part of your statement for a moment? In my view, this pretty much sums up the Baha’i faith and so it is worth discussing.

This statement is true in the sense that all true prophets of God proclaim the same faith. But as I have pointed out before, the Baha’i faith embraces prophets with conflicting beliefs and prophesies and objectively speaking they do not proclaim the same faith in the least. This position seems almost naïve. Can you please explain how Buddha, Muhammad and Moses, for instance, proclaim the same faith? And please be as specific as you can. And I would ask just one more thing. Do you believe that there are false prophets and if so, how would you discern a false prophet from a true prophet?

Thanks.

Steve

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Why do bahai deny the contentions that existed within their faith? That not all followers of the Bab accepted Mirza Hussain? Why do they consistently present this misleading picture?

 

[daler]

… If you don’t mind, can we focus on the bolded part of your statement for a moment? In my view, this pretty much sums up the Baha’i faith and so it is worth discussing.

This statement is true in the sense that all true prophets of God proclaim the same faith. But as I have pointed out before, the Baha’i faith embraces prophets with conflicting beliefs and prophesies and objectively speaking they do not proclaim the same faith in the least. This position seems almost naïve. Can you please explain how Buddha, Muhammad and Moses, for instance, proclaim the same faith? And please be as specific as you can. And I would ask just one more thing. Do you believe that there are false prophets and if so, how would you discern a false prophet from a true prophet?
Steve

Steve,
Thank you for your question and I will attempt to focus on it. Please do understand that I am in total agreement with you, that only the “True” Prophets of God are intended, and that yes, it is a challenge to discern who is and is not among them. Numerous “False” Prophets have appeared, Moon, Jones, Koresh, etc. But read their words. They are nonsense, or borrowed from Jesus or Baha’u’llah, in plagiarism of essential ideas, with nothing original or of any substance.

From all that I have read, both apart from and within references in Baha’i Writings, part of the difficulty comes from how ancient religions have been essentially adulterated by interpretations, added fantastic claims, opinions and injections of thought, etc. Most of the ancient religions were totally oral history for many centuries before being written down and tended to be blended with current thought of those who wrote them. Therefore, in order to glean an understanding of what is authentic within the ancient writings and beliefs is challenging and we must put on our thinking caps, use the reasoning ability that God gave us, set aside our prejudices, and accept that there either “is” or “is not” something rooted in reality about them.

For me, in my youth, when I was exploring religions, certain writings of Buddha and Krsna struck me as profound, and “maybe” from God, but certainly above the teachings and philosophies of men, even great men of ability. Still, I never bought into reincarnation, for example, but later assumed that was some sort of reference to heaven, or being “born again”, in Christian terminology with which I was familiar.
So, yes, as you say, there are some contradictions clearly among the past “religions” as they have come down to us, but it isn’t necessarily such that there was no Divine Origin behind them, and that there may in fact be an authenticity of the Prophets as actually being from God, even as we accept the whole line of Jewish Prophets.

In simple terms, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad taught spiritual discipline, reverence, the Golden Rule in various ways. There was an elevation of, and progression of civilization which followed in their wake. This is common among them, and their legacy endures today.
In the case of Hinduism, there is a trail of superstition, countless demigods, theories, and philosophies which have been added to whatever the original truths and teachings, and specifics of, for example, Krsna.
Yet in my readings of the various religions, there are certain fundamental truths which remain, including the “Return”

Hindu Prophecy:

“Whenever there is decay of righteousness… and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth… for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age.” — KRISHNA- Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse

Jewish Prophecy:

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man. He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away. And his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.” — Judaism- Daniel 7.13-14

Christian Prophecy:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”— Matthew 24.29-31

Buddhist Prophecy:

“I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One… He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you… He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure; such as I now proclaim.” —BUDDHA- The Gospel of Buddha

Islamic Prophecy:

“And we gave Moses the Book, and after him sent succeeding Messengers: and We gave Jesus…the clear signs… and whensoever there came to you a Messenger with that your souls had not desire for, did you become arrogant, and some cry lies to, and some slay.”
— Muhammad- Quran 2 (the Cow)
“By those sent forth one after the other… Verily that which ye are promised is about to happen. So when the stars are blotted out, And when the sky is rent asunder… when the Messengers have a time set: For what Day is this being arranged? For the Day of Severance.” — Muhammad- Quran 77
“And [Jesus] shall be a Sign of the Hour [of Judgment]; therefore have no doubt about it, but follow Me: this is a straight way.” — Muhammad- Qur’an 43.61

conintued…

 

[daler]

But how is this unique? The Catholic Church has reached every nation of the world, many centuries ago. While we have no intention of integrating other religions into our own, we do encounter every culture, race, nationality and economic status. Many of these have proven difficult, but certainly not insurmountable. Maybe I have misunderstood you.

If you don’t mind, can we focus on the bolded part of your statement for a moment? In my view, this pretty much sums up the Baha’i faith and so it is worth discussing.

Steve

continued

Zoroastrian Prophecy:

“He shall be the victorious Benefactor (Saoshyant) by name and World-renovator [Astavat-ereta] by name. He is Benefactor because he will benefit the entire physical world; he is World- renovator because he will establish the physical living existence indestructible. He will oppose the evil of the progeny of the biped and withstand the enmity produced by the faithful.” — Zoroastrianism- Avesta, Farvardin Yast 13.129

Babi Prophecy

“Well is it with him who fixeth his gaze upon the Order of Baha’u’llah, and rendereth thanks unto his Lord. For he will assuredly be made manifest. God hath indeed irrevocably ordained it…” — THE BAB- Tablet to the Shah, God Passes By, p.25

and Baha’i

“The time fore-ordained unto the people and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled…”
“The Revelation which, from time immemorial hath been acclaimed as the Purpose and Promise of all the prophets of God, and the most cherished Desire of His Messengers, hath now, by virtue of the pervasive Will of the Almighty and at His irresistible bidding, been revealed unto men. The advent of such a Revelation hath been heralded in all the sacred Scriptures. Behold how, notwithstanding such an announcement, mankind hath strayed from its path and shut out itself from its glory…”

“Verily I say, this is the day in which mankind can behold the Face and hear the Voice of the Promised One. The call of God hath been raised, and the light of His countenance hath been lifted up upon men. It behooveth every man to blot out the trace of every idle word from the tablet of his heart, and to gaze, with an open and unbiased mind, on the signs of His Revelation, the proofs of His Mission, and the tokens of His Glory.” — BAHA’U’LLAH- Baha’i World Faith, p.9-11

Hence, underlying all of the major religions of the world there is a pointing to an ultimate time when “Someone” from God will appear to fulfill these prophecies and unite mankind. Either this “Is” or “Is not” that time, and either Baha’u’llah is or is not that Promised One of all the past religions.

Regarding the role of Catholicism in religious history, it is very great, and although there were Protestant divisions which appeared later on, this process of division is itself part of the proofs that the ultimate stage had not yet been fulfilled, for that Promised One had not yet come to repair the damage, unify the various factions, not only in the Christian Church, but the rest of the major religions which, like Catholicism, gathered their folds, but some were lost to the wolves (the false prophets who divide and conquer)

“Say: The Word of God can never be confounded with the words of His creatures. It is, in truth, the King of words, even as He is Himself the sovereign Lord of all, and His Cause transcendeth all that was and all that shall be. Enter, O people, the City of Certitude wherein the throne of your Lord, the All-Merciful, hath been established. Thus biddeth you the Pen of the All-Glorious, as a token of His unfailing grace. Haply ye may not make His Revelation a cause of dissension amongst you.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

Why do bahai deny the contentions that existed within their faith? That not all followers of the Bab accepted Mirza Hussain? Why do they consistently present this misleading picture?

If free will were to be suspended, we would cease to be human. Not all the followers of Abraham accepted Moses. Not all the followers of Moses accepted Jesus. It is an act of will, a capacity God has put in every one of us, to turn towards, or away from His Manifestation in every age. Thus are differentiated believers from non-believers.

“How numerous those who expend all their wealth in the path of God, and whom We find, at the hour of His Revelation, to be of the rebellious and the froward! How many those who keep the fast in the daytime, only to protest against the One by Whose very command the ordinance of the fast was first established! Such men are, in truth, of the ignorant. And how many those who subsist on the coarsest bread, who take for their only seat the grass of the field, and who undergo every manner of hardship, merely to maintain their superiority in the eyes of men! Thus do We expose their deeds, that this may serve as a warning unto others. These are the ones who subject themselves to all manner of austerities before the gaze of others in the hope of perpetuating their names, whilst in reality no mention shall remain of them save in the curses and imprecations of the dwellers of earth and heaven.”

 

[Little_Star_1]

This, too, is very Catholic.

Rituals can be empty of meaning.

But surely you’re not saying that God can’t be found in rituals.

Christ only has One Body. And that is the Catholic Church.

For some, ritual can prepare the heart to be open to hearing God. It is not the one and only means and holds meaning for us more so than the Father, unless our hearts are properly engaged.

Your final statement is out and out wrong. I know my saying this is not going to be well taken. For one thing, the word “church” actually means people, not an institution. Actually, you are the first Catholic that ever made such statement to me. So, maybe it is just you that thinks this.

I wont go into the more controversial aspects of believing that Jesus is contained within an man made institution. This is particularly troubling given some of its sanctioned activities over thousands of years, and some of its current struggles. Nope, your preposition is completely impossible given Jesus is the Son of God and no people can lay a proprietorial claim to him. If Jesus and the Catholic church were one, then the church would never have sanctioned, and been involved in, what it has allowed to happen. It would have been impossible.

Then, there is the thing where God has stated numerous times that He is not a respecter of persons. Who we may think we are to God and to compare that to others and to maintain perceived notions of our standing with God, is nothingness.To really believe that God shares in such prejudicial notions is nuts. How can any man dare to judge his standing in the eyes of God and be so silly to think that his or her association with a particular church gives him or her an advantage in the eyes of God? To even begin to consider oneself and others in such manner confronts all that God Is to all men. It lessens His Glory. Such ideas are Sin.

 

[daler]

For some, ritual can prepare the heart to be open to hearing God. It is not the one and only means and holds meaning for us more so than the Father, unless our hearts are properly engaged.

Your final statement is out and out wrong. I know my saying this is not going to be well taken, but I have it on the highest authority that this, if really believed by the church, is no more than a presumption. It is without foundation within the higher realms, no matter what you may believe is taught by the church. For one thing, the word “church” actually means people, not an institution. Actually, you are the first Catholic that ever made such statement to me. So, maybe it is just you that thinks this.

I wont go into the more controversial aspects of believing that Jesus is contained within an man, yes, man made institution and, particularly so, given some of its sanctioned activities over thousands of years, and some of its current struggles. Nope, your preposition is completely impossible given Jesus is the Son of God and no people can lay a proprietorial claim to him.

Then, there is the thing where God has stated numerous times that He is not a respecter of persons. Who we may think we are to God and to compare that to others and to maintain perceived notions of our standing with God, is nothingness.To really believe that God shares in such prejudicial notions is nuts. How can any man dare to judge his standing in the eyes of God and be so silly to think that his or her association with a particular church gives him or her an advantage in the eyes of God? To even begin to consider oneself and others in such manner confronts all that God Is to all men. It lessens His Glory. Such ideas are Sin.

“Wherever two or more gather and make mention of Me, there I am also…” Jesus

… (I still think the Indians had God before Columbus showed up)

 

[daler]

“Is There Yet No More?” by daler (A poem about the Bab)

Swimming in a sea of thoughts, waves washing away the shoreline of ancient customs, turning stone into sand, crashing idols against themselves and crushing them into dust.  Discarding dead ideas, coughing up bloated beliefs and spitting them out one by one upon the strand to be dried in the Sun of a New Day.

Each morning the process continues, each evening the same, till the moon of understanding swells the tide of eternity, disrupting that which is fixed immutably in the minds of men.  For God, the Most Great Spirit, is known only to Himself, never to be fathomed, comprehended, or compressed into the finite container of human learning, no matter the title, capacity, or stature.  He is in Himself the Unknowable, All-Knowing One.  

"Veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence", He is Unsearchable, "the Most Hidden of the Hidden, the Most Manifest of the Manifest."  and  "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision."

And yet He allows us to build our many and assorted sandcastles, our sacred altars, so secure and everlasting, and such magnificent mansions, housing Royal Kings of our own conception, Queens of corruption and vanity, Princes of pride, Princesses of pomp, regal Dukes of dogma, with grand Armies of doubt arrayed on all sides, fending off the will of Destiny with little more than whispers against the Mighty Wind of God, blowing wave upon wave, reducing to forgotten shadows these fickle fortresses of yesteryear, built so solidly and with such confidence on the frail, fanciful foundations of human fallacy upon which our most grand civilizations are conceived, mapped out, and forever entombed within the emptiness of our own sorry selves.

But when the fixed time arrives (for judgement),
No court jester’s jokes can make us laugh.
No wizard’s wonder will explain away our pain.
No magician’s potions will appear to end the nightmare.
No knights to the rescue. No crusaders to conquer.
“Thus far, and no further!”

That which hath been revealed is neither of our own desire, nor our choice.
“He doeth what He willeth.” and He speaks with His own Voice.
Casts upon the sea of doubt all those who hesitate or halt.
Let them satisfy their thirst with ocean’s briny salt.
Leave them be, these pillars of piety, a testimony to their crumbling creeds.
Then separate mere mortals’ words from self-effacing deeds.

What standard should be raised? Which flag do we salute?
When 750 rifles Aim… and Fire… and Shoot!!
And when the smoke clears finally from Tabriz’s Barracks Square,
No trace of their Sacred Target do they find: no Face, no feet, nor hair.
Until at last discovered, finishing His Song,
This Nightingale of Paradise once more 's paraded 'fore the throng.

Suspended by new ropes, for everyone to see.
“Recruit another Army!” for the first one all did flee…
And now the shots rang out. The bloody deed is done.
Before the very Heavens, they think they’ve killed the Sun!
Still His Orb is shining brighter than it ever has before.
This Martyr’s Cup, drunk to the dregs, cries: “Is there yet no more?”

 

[PRmerger]

For some, ritual can prepare the heart to be open to hearing God. It is not the one and only means and holds meaning for us more so than the Father, unless our hearts are properly engaged.

This is very Catholic.

Your final statement is out and out wrong. I know my saying this is not going to be well taken. For one thing, the word “church” actually means people, not an institution.

It can have more than one meaning. Just like “Star” can mean a celebrity, or it can mean a mass of gas

Actually, you are the first Catholic that ever made such statement to me. So, maybe it is just you that thinks this.

I don’t blame you for not knowing basic tenets of Catholicism, as you are not a Catholic.

However, if you are going to post on a Catholic forum it might be a good idea to familiarize yourself with some of our rather fundamental and elementary Catholic beliefs.

To wit: from our Catechism: The Church is the Body of Christ.–CCC 805

 

[PRmerger]

I wont go into the more controversial aspects of believing that Jesus is contained within an man made institution.

Well, Little Star, is there any* other* way you know what Jesus professed and believed, except through this man-made institution?

Nope, your preposition is completely impossible given Jesus is the Son of God and no people can lay a proprietorial claim to him.

How is it you know that Jesus is the Son of God, Little Star? Did He come and reveal Himself to you in a dream?

Or is it because the Catholic Church proclaimed this to you?

 

[Little_Star_1]

This is very Catholic.

It can have more than one meaning. Just like “Star” can mean a celebrity, or it can mean a mass of gas

I don’t blame you for not knowing basic tenets of Catholicism, as you are not a Catholic.

However, if you are going to post on a Catholic forum it might be a good idea to familiarize yourself with some of our rather fundamental and elementary Catholic beliefs.

To wit: from our Catechism: The Church is the Body of Christ.–CCC 805

What the laws of any church say as regards the make up Christ bear little meaning to me. I go by what has come from the Lord Himself and He said that the commandments of men have no meaning to Him. Really, you are basing your supposition on a supposition.

I wish I allowed myself the luxury of thinking I was in good standing with God just because I go to a particular church and the church tells me so.

I notice you did not try to explain how the perfection of Christ can be held within a church which has performed in the world as the Catholic church has. It is impossible.

Matthew 15

‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

 

[PRmerger]

I go by what has come from the Lord Himself and He said that the commandments of men have no meaning to Him.

Suddenly you trust this man-made institution which told you what “has come from the Lord Himself.”

Remember, you would not know it any other way…

except for your submission to the Catholic Church telling you this is what the Lord Himself said.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Well, Little Star, is there any* other* way you know what Jesus professed and believed, except through this man-made institution?

How is it you know that Jesus is the Son of God, Little Star? Did He come and reveal Himself to you in a dream?

Or is it because the Catholic Church proclaimed this to you?

I will not discuss the details of my faith with someone that has repeatedly shown arrogance and disregard towards anything not of his own mind. Your concepts of God are so far from the true Glory of His Being, there is little of God to be recognized from your statements.

You come on here to engage in ridiculing others, not to truly engage in a fruitful and meaningful discussion. You remind me of the Jewish Pharisees.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Suddenly you trust this man-made institution which told you what “has come from the Lord Himself.”

Remember, you would not know it any other way…

except for your submission to the Catholic Church telling you this is what the Lord Himself said.

Nope, you do not know me very well. So, I could see how you would think that I would be assured of His identity merely by what is written in church doctrine. However, that is not who I am. Please also do not think that I bear any ill will towards the Catholic church. I most certainly do not. But, when you hold it up to the standard of actually being the body of Christ, you make great error. It has shown it is a church of man and not the body of Christ over and over. How you can maintain such an ill minded belief makes one wonder.

 

[PRmerger]

I will not discuss the details of my faith with someone that has repeatedly shown arrogance and disregard towards anything not of his own mind. Your concepts of God are so far from the true Glory of His Being, there is little of God to be recognized from your statements.

You come on here to engage in ridiculing others, not to truly engage in a fruitful and meaningful discussion. You remind me of the Jewish Pharisees.

I don’t understand where this response is coming from.

I simply pointed out your inconsistencies.

You reject man-made institutions, yet accept what the allegedly man-made institution has told you.

I am not questioning your faith.

Only pointing out something you may not have considered before: you have given your tacit submission to a man-made institution.

Nothing wrong with that.

Except you should now not disparage this alleged man-made institution.

Just sayin’…

 

[PRmerger]

Nope, you do not know me very well. So, I could see how you would think that I would be assured of His identity merely by what is written in church doctrine. However, that is not who I am. Please also do not think that I bear any ill will towards the Catholic church. I most certainly do not. But, when you hold it up to the standard of actually being the body of Christ, you make great error. It has shown it is a church of man and not the body of Christ over and over. How you can maintain such an ill minded belief makes one wonder.

Again, all I am doing is pointing out something you have never thought about before, apparently.

It’s like person saying, “I don’t believe that eating ice cream is healthy.” And I am simply saying, “Did you know that you are actually eating ice cream? You may not have known that. I am simply showing you that you are.”

 

[Little_Star_1]

Again, all I am doing is pointing out something you have never thought about before, apparently.

It’s like person saying, “I don’t believe that eating ice cream is healthy.” And I am simply saying, “Did you know that you are actually eating ice cream? You may not have known that. I am simply showing you that you are.”

I have responded and made it quite clear that I did not come by my faith through a church or any other institution. I will not attempt to clarify that to you.