Bahá'í

[Little_Star_1]

Hence why o master I beseech you to teach me the nuances and explain to me why I am so wrong as to this “terminology” which most if not all Christians (at least the ones who know what they are talking about) use in talking about theology generally. That being said Im not intellectual, this stuff is the basic of the basic when we are talking about Christian history and the development of doctrine ( a book series I reccomend by the way) and what does it tell us when bahai don’t know this stuff? It tells us they don’t know Christinaity, hence why I am annoyed when Bahai say “We believe Jesus is divine too!”

They know, and you know that they know that we both don’t mean the same thing when we say things like “Jesus is divine.” Unlike Christians the bahai do not consider Jesus as divine in terms of ultimate divintiy, the highest, God in otherwords. They mean some vague concept of Manifestationism (which they will misleadingly call Trinity) in which there are eternal beings (this vague) who perfectly mirror God (again this is vague cause apparently they can sin and disobey God) and are for all intention purposes the Jesus Arrius imagined.

Now the fact you think any council got rid of the gnostic gospels, at least the important councils dealing with the subject of defining the relationship between the father and the son (nicea and constantinople) is humerous to me. Perhaps you ought read their canons or something about them before you say such things and outright dismiss your Christian heritage.

They did not get rid of them. They excluded them. There is a difference. Well, on one thing we agree, we are of a differing Christian heritage.

 

[SteveVH]

This is literally impossible. How in the heck could Jesus have taught Catholicism as Truth when it didn’t come into being until hundreds of years after his death? He was Jewish. He believed in Judaism.

Please enlighten us. When did the Catholic Church come into being?

 

[Little_Star_1]

No, Little Star. The Catholic Church was born on Pentecost.

And then he founded the Catholic Church.

That is your belief, most people identify it as beginning with Constantine.

Gotta go boys. Its been real.

 

[Razanir]

This is literally impossible. How in the heck could Jesus have taught Catholicism as Truth when it didn’t come into being until hundreds of years after his death? He was Jewish. He believed in Judaism.

No, Little Star. The Catholic Church was born on Pentecost.

And then he founded the Catholic Church.

Little Star, PRmerger described it pretty well. I’m not denying that Jesus was Jewish. I was merely pointing out that the New Testament and what Jesus taught is the foundation of Catholicism. (Yes, Catholicism. Our birthday is Pentecost) However, it’s irrelevant to my question. Either way, Jesus warned against false prophets, and syncretism goes directly against that.

 

[Razanir]

That is your belief, most people identify it as beginning with Constantine.

No, they don’t

 

[PRmerger]

You as a Christian may have a need to place God in terms that can be easily digested by you. Some of us have no such need. Some of us are just fine with the concept of GOD IS and that alone.

Well, I don’t know that any Christian here has made any demands at all that our theology must be “easily digested”.

However, being “just fine” with the concept of GOD IS seems to be in direct contradiction to Jesus’ command to love God with our entire, heart, soul, strength and MIND.

If you do not contemplate the Godhead, attempt to understand and comprehend and apprehend the Eternal Logos, then you are not loving God with your entire MIND.

 

[PRmerger]

That is your belief, most people identify it as beginning with Constantine.

Were you aware that a Catholic bishop who was born centuries before Constantine named Justin Martyr wrote about how the early Christians worshipped?

He writes: And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1763662/posts

That sounds pretty much like they were Catholic, wayyyyy before Constantine, eh?

 

[Little_Star_1]

Gotta go boys its been real. I do think you have gotten lost in the intellectualizing; but, hey life itself may get you out of that at some point.

 

[PRmerger]

Gotta go boys its been real. I do think you have gotten lost in the intellectualizing; but, hey life itself may get you out of that at some point.

That is the human way, Little Star. We try to understand.

It is the animals who do not try to intellectualize.

 

[mek42]

About ten pages ago someone needs quoted Aquinas as first certitude of God, then reason, lots of reason, then Catholic belief. This thought has been resonating with me recently and I wanted to express thanks in the thread for mentioning it.

 

[Little_Star_1]

That is the human way, Little Star. We try to understand.

It is the animals who do not try to intellectualize.

Had to say something on this. So, it is your contention that God only loves those to which he has gifted with the intellectual ability to understand God in a way that deals primarily with the mind? Those born with intellectual challenges are lost to God? I ask you to engage your heart and your mind.

Also, your great intellectual understanding of God leads you to call me an animal? Gee, missed that lesson when reading the New Testament. I do recall lots of them where he chastised the Pharisees for getting the rules and terms right and missing the whole meaning of God’s message to man.

Good luck!

 

[PRmerger]

Had to say something on this. So, it is your contention that God only loves those to which he has gifted with the intellectual ability to understand God in a way that deals primarily with the mind? Those born with intellectual challenges are lost to God? I ask you to engage your heart and your mind.

That, friend, is a very weird statement that doesn’t even come close to what I have proposed.

I haven’t mentioned God loving us in a single post to you.

What I was speaking about was how we are to love God.

 

[PRmerger]

Also, your great intellectual understanding of God leads you to call me an animal?

That response is like my saying, “I see that you, Little Star, think that you are made out of cosmic gas and astronomical particles. How dare you think you are better than us!”

It would validly prompt this response from you: HUH?

 

[arthra]

So Bahá’í believe that Jesus and the prophets of the Old Testament are all Manifestations. And this group of religious teachers includes all sorts of people, like Mohammad and Bahá’u’lláh. However, Jesus said in the Gospels “beware false prophets”

[bibledrb]Matthew 7:15[/bibledrb]

How does you justify Jesus as a teacher of your religion with him warning against false prophets? It’s fairly clear that Jesus taught Catholicism as the Truth.

Thanks for your post Razinir…

In response to your statement above:

.“So Bahá’í believe that Jesus and the prophets of the Old Testament are all Manifestations.”

Baha’is accept Abraham, Moses, Jesus as Manifestations of God…

In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. This is a unity divine, heavenly, radiant, merciful; the one reality appearing in its successive manifestations.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 258)

There were also prophets in the Bible we would regard as being dependent on the Manifestations…

*The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.*

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 164)

Jesus does warn us against “false prophets” in Matthew chapter 7

*Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. …. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

– Matt. vii, 15-17, 20
*
There were false prophets mentioned in early Christianity:
*Acts 13:6

"And when they had gone through the isle to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet…

The Didache has

And every prophet who ordereth in the spirit that a table shall be laid, shall not eat of it himself, but if he do otherwise, he is a false prophet; and every prophet who teacheth the truth, if he do not what he teacheth is a false prophet;

In 1 John 4

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. 2 This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a propheta] acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God. 3 But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.*

My understanding is that in the days of the early church there was an office known as “prophets” and there were doctrines that Jesus did not have a physical body … this was called Docetism. So there have been many “False Prophets”…

Baha’is believe people should investigate truth independently and not simply accept what someone says because of their authority:

*Discover for yourselves the reality of things, and strive to assimilate the methods by which noble-mindedness and glory are attained among the nations and people of the world.

No man should follow blindly his ancestors and forefathers. Nay, each must see with his own eyes, hear with his own ears and investigate independently in order that he may find the truth. The religion of forefathers and ancestors is based upon blind imitation. Man should investigate reality.*
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 24)

 

[Little_Star_1]

That response is like my saying, “I see that you, Little Star, think that you are made out of cosmic gas and astronomical particles. How dare you think you are better than us!”

It would validly prompt this response from you: HUH?

Sir, you clearly responded to me after I criticized your purely intellectual view of God, which you defended repeatedly, with a statement that only animals do not view God from an intellectual standpoint. I never said I am better than you. Surely with all your intellect you can discern I wrote about the heart of God and the love we are to have for each other as described by Jesus. We cannot truly love God and deny love to even the least among us, including those of other religions. In fact, your statement, when taken to its logical conclusion, amounts to you saying that anyone that does not use an intellectual standpoint from which to view God is an animal. You said it, not me. If you now feel shame for having made such a statement, then good.

Matthew 15

‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

 

[PRmerger]

Had to say something on this. So, it is your contention that God only loves those to which he has gifted with the intellectual ability to understand God in a way that deals primarily with the mind? Those born with intellectual challenges are lost to God? I ask you to engage your heart and your mind.

Also, your great intellectual understanding of God leads you to call me an animal? Gee, missed that lesson when reading the New Testament. I do recall lots of them where he chastised the Pharisees for getting the rules and terms right and missing the whole meaning of God’s message to man.

Good luck!

It is with some amusement that I note, that just a little over a month ago, you posted something that is almost exactly what I stated:

However, just to entertain you, the creatures you listed are not capable of reason, at least we don’t know that they are capable of reasoning. So, they do not have the ability to contemplate their origins and trace them back to God.

So now you seem to be taking offense to your own point of view?

 

[PRmerger]

Sir, you clearly responded to me after I criticized your purely intellectual view of God, which you defended repeatedly, with a statement that only animals do not view God from an intellectual standpoint.

Heh.

And it appears that you believe exactly the same thing.

However, just to entertain you, the creatures you listed are not capable of reason, at least we don’t know that they are capable of reasoning. So, they do not have the ability to contemplate their origins and trace them back to God.

 

[Little_Star_1]

That response is like my saying, “I see that you, Little Star, think that you are made out of cosmic gas and astronomical particles. How dare you think you are better than us!”

It would validly prompt this response from you: HUH?

Oh, and yeah I am, we all are, made of cosmic gas and astronomical particles. That is the great miracle of Creation. We, everything, are just a bunch of atoms crammed together. The tighter they are grouped, the more solid they appear. So, buddy, you are me and I am you, scientifically speaking that is.

 

[Servant19]

Daler quoting me out of context (In which I said bahai like to knock Christians for X reason, not as if I said it in general) doesn’t help your case. The thing is the bahais do love to point out the schisms and bitterness all throughout history and use that as a reason why Bahai is simply better. Deal with the point.

Now please stop this silly little game of trying to say you believe in the same thing as us. You know this is absolutely deceptive to say that “. We all absolutely, positively belief in the Divinity of Jesus the Christ. Period.” You do not believe Jesus is of one substance with the father and the holy spirit like Christians do, you believe in a different doctrine. Im tired of bahai constantly redefining things within the conversation to try and appeal to the EMOTIONS of the individual instead of the actual beliefs. Admit you do not consider Christ as God, totally to be worshipped, Creator of all, Eternal, and from whom we derive our ultimate existence and meaning for life. You believe this not and you know it. Stop this insulting game of trying to say “WE AGREE LOOK WE AGREE.” It is pathetic and it is deceptive, it is lying.

That being said, show me where your prophet had a good concept of what Christainity is, and by Christianity I mean historic Christianity not only in the bible but through the fathers and the church throughout the centuries. Show me he understood what Immaculate Conception meant and explain to me if you are to believe in the immaculate conception of Mary why do Bahai reject original sin? Show me where he understood the nuance of Christian expression concerning the persons of God and the substance of God? Hmm? I may sound harsh now but that’s only because you have consistently deceive. Simply saying that he is the spirit of truth and therefore he must have understood Christianity is not good enough, ive read his letter to Christians and its full of ignorance and doesn’t convince me of anything. He rather insults presbyters and tells them to leave their church because they do nothing, he doesn’t know anything about the function of the presbyter, to serve the communities needs in giving of the sacraments, advice and love. Show me where he understood Christianity then I will take what you say seriously.
That being said, if I lied like you, if I deceived to try and get people to like me in a conversation like the bahai consistently do. Not all bahai, but the ignorant bahai like you. I might have gotten soap in my mouth as well.

So once again, nothing of substance from Daler, what more to expect?

Now Servant.

What is missing is the distinguishing. Your bahai brother seems to be saying to me that they are the same person in different incarnations exactly like the Hindu concept of Krishna. The same soul being reincarnated every so often for whatever reason, an avatar if you will. Is this the bahai concept? Are the manifestations unique and themselves without a body? This is something the bahai are having difficulty explaining and I do not know why. Some bahai have said they are not the same but are their own but in order to say Mirza Hussain is Jesus, Daler has had to say the Jesus that walked on earth 2000 years ago was the Mirza Hussain who walked on earth however many years ago.

Now this third reality you speak of is really the substance. They are of a different substance than that of humans or God. The rays might be from the sun but they are not the sun in make up or matter, but are just light. But if you truly believe they are mirrors of God I want to ask you, can a mirror of God sin? Can he disobey God? Moses did.

No Ignatian, what Daler is referring to is the DIVINE reality, that is the same. They are different HUMAN identities.

All human identities (i.e their body, mind and soul) is still LIMITED by some of the frailties and limitations of humanity, they are not transcendent of eating, drinking, sleeping.

In regards to sin, you know as well as I do that what is a mercy killing to champion Gods justice, is not considered a sin, certainly not at the time.

One could easily argue that the damaging of property and overthrowing of tables at a market place is equally a sin, as with Jesus, or the destruction of hundreds of idolized statues (Abraham)

 

[Little_Star_1]

Heh.

And it appears that you believe exactly the same thing.

Hey, I never said anything against reason. I said it that love was the greatest part of Christian teaching and that love should prevent us from attacking others and being disrespectful of their beliefs. Paul said that love was more important than all else as well in Corinthians. Then, you called me an animal.